Morgan Wright

Valve springs for E 6 cylinder engine (1918)

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Century Spring are good guys if you'd like to have a bunch made. I'm sure there is a market for them. With a minimum order.

We had some rear wheel brake springs made.

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I only need 5 springs. The shop has already rebuilt 7 cages but can't do the other 5 because the springs are warped and can't be used. I probably warped them getting the cages out.

 

I'll just take 5 springs off the spare engine. No problem.

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Be careful with the spring pressures.  The cages are gray cast iron without a hardened seat.  The pushrods are the weak link in the valve train.  Spring pressures that are too high can and will cause a lot of other problems.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

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The guy at the shop says he can make new brass seals too, he says $25 each. That's a cool $300 for him.

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I have 6 of the exhaust cage sealing rings in stock that I will sell to you for $15.00 each plus the shipping.  I'll post a photo later this evening.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

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A friend rebuilt one of these engines and in an effort to improve things and improve valve motion, he substituted stronger springs.

The outcome?  Bent pushrods.

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Here is a photo of the brass sealing rings for the exhaust cages.  It seems that I misspoke in saying that I had 6 of them.  There are 8 of them and once these are gone I do not think that I will do any more of them.  First person that comes up with $125.00 (that will include the postage) will have them on the way to their mailbox.  These rings are for the exhaust cages and will work on all models thru the 1923's.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

P9100273.JPG

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14 hours ago, Terry Wiegand said:

Here is a photo of the brass sealing rings for the exhaust cages.  It seems that I misspoke in saying that I had 6 of them.  There are 8 of them and once these are gone I do not think that I will do any more of them.  First person that comes up with $125.00 (that will include the postage) will have them on the way to their mailbox.  These rings are for the exhaust cages and will work on all models thru the 1923's.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

P9100273.JPG

 

 

I hope you can sell them to me because I just called the shop and told him not to make the exhaust ones, he's making intake only, and if you sell them to somebody else he will think I'm an idiot.

 

Can I pay via paypal? If so my email is dualkubota@yahoo.com and you can send me an invoice there.

 

Thanks

 

.

Edited by Morgan Wright (see edit history)

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It's a beautiful thing. 12 valve cages like new again.

 

He was able to use all but 3 of the springs, and said the springs from the spare engine were too rusty to use so he ordered 3 new springs and had to shim them to get the right compression. The 3 bad springs (in the pic) were badly damaged from the forces of removing the cages with the Buffum tool, the 3 new springs that he bought of the right length and size had too low of a compression and you can see where he shimmed them.

 

The 6 brass sealing rings on the exhaust were made by Terry Wiegand, the 6 on the intake were made by Gary at NAPA in Saratoga. He had to buy a huge chunk of brass rod stock and has most of it left over so if anybody needs brass sealing rings he needs to get rid of about 10 pounds of brass.

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DSCN2290.JPG

Edited by Morgan Wright (see edit history)
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Morgan, 

    I have noticed that the spring quality of these old springs is not that good.  Several replaced and broken springs in my 1925 Buick Head.  I know you have your cages together now, but I think it would be good to work on getting a new set made.  Maybe someone else is willing to go in with you as well.  

 

Hugh

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One could check with Century Spring and see if there is a possible off the shelf, standard spring that might be correct.

 

After 100 years mine seems to still be running just fine with its original springs. Not necessarily a reccomendation.

One thing I noticed. The coil spacing on my springs is the same for the entire length. Some of the photos here show a tighter wire wind on one end. Comments?

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We talk about spring wire diameter, spring length uncompressed, but I haven't heard anyone talk about the spring rate (pounds per inch of compression).  To me this is the most critical specification.  Wiire diameter and uncompressed length can vary from original, but the wrong spring rate can cause a lot of damage.

 

Bob Engle

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Bob is right.

Another question. Without the original Buick specification for the spring, free length, spring rate (k) and compressed force, with valve closed, it is hard to correctly specify a particular spring.

Today, all the springs on our engines have flexed a lot and sat a lot, they may not be truly nor representative of what is truly correct.

The only other true comparison would be with a NOS spring.

 

Or... is this a subject we are overthinking with these very high performance engines?

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Bob and Don are right on some points.  But, there is a little more than meets the eye when it comes to valve springs.  There is the wire diameter itself, there is the number of coils in a specified length, There is the over-all-length in the free state, there is the pounds of pressure at the given compressed length, and there are the heat treat callouts.  We are dealing with low speed, low compression engines without hardened valve seats.  Care needs to be taken to protect the gray cast iron machined seats in either the cages or the head in the later engines.  I have access to copies of Buick Motor Company Engineering Drawings for the valve springs used on engines from 1915 thru 1923.  I have lost track of the number of sets of springs that I have had made for the caged-valve 6-Cylinder engines.  Anyone who is needing a set or sets of springs for their 6-Cylinder engine should contact me and I can have them made for you to factory specifications with an approximate 5 - 6 week lead time.  You guys out there reading this should consider having a new set made for your engine.  This would put things back up to factory specifications and the more that could be made on a single order will bring the per piece cost down.  If I can help anyone out let me know.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

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Gary had a scale in his shop for measuring spring compression at various lengths. It had a scale on one end that measured compression and a pointer that read spring length, and a handle for moving the scale up and down. I defer all knowledge about springs to him because he's probably rebuilt 10,000 engines in his life and his Master Machinist license on the wall has been there for decades. Every grease monkey in town gets his engine work done there.

 

I have a 1922 Buick shop manual that tells the spring compression at various lengths, which I gave him to use.

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Gary was impressed that these engines have roller lifters. He said they were very advanced for the time. He was amazed.

 

Seems all the muscle-car gear-heads found out in the late 1980's that roller lifters give more horsepower. They were raving about it and taking big block chevy engines and changing them over to aftermarket roller cams and roller lifters. But they had to change the block so the lifter bore was longer and change everything around until the 90's when they came stock that way, very modern. Whoop-de-do. And race car designers were on the roller lifter bandwagon. They all said roller lifters open the valve sooner in the stroke and keep it open longer, for better gas exchange, and more horses, because with rollers on the cam they can make the angle of the cam lift more aggressive.

 

Wowie zowie Buick had roller lifters over 100 years ago. Another Buick first not just OHV.

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This just in......roller lifters are illustrated in the original 1902 Buick patent application:

 

Valve-In-Head_1904_patent.jpg

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3 hours ago, Morgan Wright said:

Another Buick first not just OHV.

Sorry, they were not first for OHV. An 1896 patent awarded to William F. Davis had valves in the head. Henry Ford's Quadricycle of 1896 had overhead exhaust valves. In 1898, William Lorenzo Marr built a single cylinder OHV engine into a trike. Marr was hired by David Buick in 1900.

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It looks like you are quoting something I wrote in Wikipedia. Very interesting having your own words argued back at you.

 

Davis never made a car and never produced an engine, he just solved the problem of how to cool the head in an internal combustion engine with OHV --on paper--.

 

Rocker arms and push rods were around for 100 years in steam engines but when they tried to use the concept in internal combustion engines there was no way to cool the head. Ford made a car that always overheated, check the history. He got his design out of a magazine written by a guy who never made an engine either. Nobody made a successful OHV engine that didn't overheat, until Marr.

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