Help to identify the car I just received

[Simnut]

Awesome Rod.  Nice reading!  Thank you!

[bradsan]

On 9/6/2018 at 11:30 PM, Tinindian said:

In Canadian provinces most of the cars with serial numbers were registered using that number. There may have been exceptions but I have never seen one.  Ford of course was one exception as the Model T only had an engine number.

Interesting, I have heard otherwise but have no source for that. I do know the 1932 registration I have shows model number , engine number and reg number on the first line. Serial number on the second line after body number but i can't say with certainty that they are listed in order of importance.

Of course none of these are identified as such,  so in today's world, you only know what they mean if you are familiar with your marque. I don't think the person who responded to my request had any idea what the number on the registration meant other than the registration number itself.

I guess my point could better be stated that back then , engine number was at least as important in registering and identifying the car as the serial number was and appears to have been required to register the car . I suspect ( and have heard ) that it was because  it was a lot harder to change an engine number (Model T's excepted !) than a serial number plate attached to frame or a floor board. That appear to be the case in BC anyway.  Out of curiosity, do you have the original SK reg for your Pontiac and does it have the engine number on it?

 

Since he is missing the firewall data plate , If Harry gives either BC or AB  registrar the engine number , he might find a match that leads back to his serial number. That was how it worked for one of my other cars.

 

Brad

 

 

[Simnut]

As far as I can figure at this point of time....I believe this to be the car I have.  I do stand , ready to be corrected though lol

 

A key hint to me is having the separate clock in the car also.  I can't find anything else that matches as close as this one does. ?

 

Orrrr.....Someone has mismatched the body?  One thing that confuses me still is the fuel tank.  The filler doesn't work with the trunk.  Replaced tank maybe?  This is a touring car, I'm quite sure...everything matches except that gas tank filler .

Edited September 9, 2018 by Simnut (see edit history)

[Simnut]

Advice from the experts again!  As I mentioned in my previous post, perhaps the fuel tank has been replaced with a smaller "non-touring" tank?  Here are a couple of photos of my car's rear, what do you think?

 

In this first one, you can see the brackets against the left rear fender.  Would they have been involved in holding the larger fuel tank perhaps?  There is both a horizontal and vertical flange with two holes in the horizontal flange and one on the vertical.  Setup the same on both sides.  Here is a snapshot off a video of a 1923 with the larger fuel tank and trunk setup on an identical car to mine.  It shows that the larger fuel tank would take advantage of those flanges.  This pic also shows the downward turn of the frame (that is around my existing smaller fuel tank) protruding through the tank.  Well, not through...the tank appears to be built around those frame rails.

 

 

Take it easy on me...I'm a rookie

Edited September 9, 2018 by Simnut (see edit history)

[Terry Wiegand]

Simnut,

Hugh gave you a good list  of a lot of things that were unique to the 1923 6-Cylinder models.  We cannot forget that the 1923 models were the last year for the caged-valve engine.  1924 being the first year for a removable cylinder head on the 6-Cylinder engine.  1923 was also the last year for the 2-wheel brakes.  If you need copies of the 1923 sales brochure I can help you out with that.  When it comes to the ignition system on your car,  you are very fortunate that the 1923 models used a single piece molded distributor cap which is relatively easy to find.  Like the others have told you, you have found the right place where early Buick enthusiasts from all over the world are willing to help you with good solid technical advice and lots of encouragement.  Welcome to the fascinating world

of early Buick automobiles and trucks.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[Simnut]

Thanks Terry!  I have found complete 1923 Buick line of cars brochures and 1923 Buick reference manuals on line at a site I believe I found on here.

http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/

 

Going through that all, the fuel tank issue is the only remaining question in my mind.  The year is pretty solid I'm thinking and if we discover that this isn't the original fuel tank, the model 41 would be pretty solid.  Unless , as 24-6-51a mentioned...it is a car that was discontinued or didn't make the brochures and it was setup for an accessories trunk. But if that was the case, there would have been far fewer made that the 8160 of the 23-6-41 model. 

 

Again...I'm just throwing things out there as I find them to get either shot down or perhaps a thumbs up. 

[ROD W]

Simnut,    Your fuel tank should have the filler coming out the side of the trunk as in this pic of of a 23-55 and in the pic you posted above.  Most cars had the filler in the centre ,  but the models with the factory installed trunk had the filler at the side.   If this is not the case,  it means the tank has been replaced at some time.  Your car is  95 years old and over the years changes often get made. All the tanks are oval in shape and mounted between the chassis rails.  There should be a flat metal plate that the trunk sits on,  this was the case in 1924 and I would assume would be the same in 1923.  Your car is a 23-6-41  as Buick did not make a  2 door sedan  in the 1922  Models  and as you know 1924 was a completely different car.   Even though your car was probably built in 1922  as it has an early serial number,  it is a 1923 model, as Buicks production year ran from  August to August .    Buick often did bring out new models through out the year  to co- inside with motor shows held at different times.

[ROD W]

You can get Reference Manuals and Parts Manuals for the 1923 Models from the Buick Heritage Alliance.

[Simnut]

Thank you Rod.  Now that we know what it is...next job is to see if the 1923 Alberta plate is her original or first plate!   I've already emailed Service Alberta to see if they can help me out.   

 

Edited to add:  I didn't mean you all have to help LOL.  It means I'm including this group as part of this project. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Simnut (see edit history)

[ROD W]

Here is a 23,  you can see how the tank is mounted under the chassis/frame.   This did not have the trunk  so had the centre filler.  It is also an export model as you can see has the right hand steering and gears  with the wire wheels.

[ROD W]

Plenty of literature on ebay.  Here,s a  pic of a 23-41 in a show room or motor show.  and this reference book shows all the models for 23

[Morgan Wright]

All wood spoked wheels except for the sports roadster, with wire wheels. What does that say about wire wheels?

Edited September 9, 2018 by Morgan Wright
typo (see edit history)

[Leif Holmberg]

Wire wheels in 1923 Buick 6 cyl. Parts Book.

Leif in Sweden.

[Simnut]

All this info and pictures like that showroom, I get this weird and wonderful feeling that someday in the very near future I'll be able to show off automobile history and be a part of it now.  Actually, you should see how many of my friends want to stop by and see her now!  Many on this forum have "warned" me about this , how these old cars grow on you but it's not a bad thing.  Without people like you, many cars would have ended up who knows where,  instead of still being around, being used...shown off.   In five years time, the car I just got is going to be 100 years old !  I'm still shaking my head LOL 

 

  I'm lucky that this car is in the shape it is for a first timer like me.  I can only imagine what some of you went through to get your  cars to where they are now.  

[Simnut]

My initial game plan is to start to disassemble the car and take inventory of all the parts, take tons of pictures and start to refurbish as she goes back together.  I would like all parts to be in good working order mechanically speaking and then redo the interior.  I know this is a general statement but would this be a realistic and proper way to go with it?  

[Grimy]

1 hour ago, Simnut said:

My initial game plan is to start to disassemble the car and take inventory of all the parts, take tons of pictures and start to refurbish as she goes back together.  I would like all parts to be in good working order mechanically speaking and then redo the interior.  I know this is a general statement but would this be a realistic and proper way to go with it? 

Please consider carefully what you want to end up with, both short term and long term. 

1. Option 1: Complete disassembly means a years-long full restoration and life often--too often-- gets in the way, resulting in a stalled project being sold for pennies on the dollar.

2. Option 2:  Mechanical refurbishment of individual systems in priority (brakes, steering at the top), get it running and charging well.  One system at a time so that the car can be put back together quickly.  A car that is running will get your attention for 2 hours after dinner and half days on weekends, whereas we tend to wait for 2 weeks vacation to work on something totally disassembled.  When it's safe to drive, DRIVE IT to whet your enthusiasm for the car! 

Option 2A:  If you want, at least short term, to have a Driver Survivor, don't put shiny new paint on repaired or refurbished components.  There are tricks such as flattening agents for paint to make a component look like it has aged naturally and has not been touched, yet provide protection against rust.  In this sub-option, just "take the curse off of it."

Option 2B:  If you want to do a "rolling (full) restoration/refurbishment," paint and detail each component as you finish it.

NOTE:  Once you've departed from the naturally-aged look, there is no going back.  If you chose 2A, you can, down the road, do the cosmetics later.

 

I'm sure others will come up with more options or permutations of these.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Grimy
correct typos (see edit history)

[Simnut]

14 minutes ago, Grimy said:

Please consider carefully what you want to end up with, both short term and long term. 

1. Option 1: Complete disassembly means a years-long full restoration and life often--too often-- gets in the way, resulting in a stalled project being sold for pennies on the dollar.

2. Option 2:  Mechanical refurbishment of individual systems in priority (brakes, steering at the top), get it running and charging well.  One system at a time so that the car can be put back together quickly.  A car that is running will get your attention for 2 hours after dinner and half days on weekends, whereas we tend to wait for 2 weeks vacation to work on something totally disassembled.  When it's safe to drive, DRIVE IT to whet your enthusiasm for the car! 

Option 2A:  If you want, at least short term, to have a Driver Survivor, don't put shiny new paint on repaired or refurbished components.  There are tricks such as flattening agents for paint to make a component look like it has aged naturally and has not been touched, yet provide protection against rust.  In this sub-option, just "take the curse off of it."

Option 2B:  If you want to do a "rolling (full) restoration/refurbishment," paint and detail each component as you finish it.

NOTE:  Once you've departed from the naturally-aged look, there is no going back.  If you chose 2A, you can, down the road, do the cosmetics later.

 

If sure others will come up withy more options or permutations of these.

 

 I'm thinking in the range of option 2 or 2A.  Would love for it to look as it did when it was 20 years old or so.  In that I mean a driver with the look of wear and tear.  The option of making all the mechanics sound and reliable makes sense.  Do one system at a time.  I am semi retired (have a 26hp Kioti that I do work with for other people) and looked for something to keep my mind and body busy.  I would like to get the artillery wheels back to their original color.....and perhaps the body.   The interior will need some work...but I'm so looking forward to that part.  Actually, I'm so looking forward to getting to know this car in all aspects! 

 

Thanks for the input Grimy!

[Morgan Wright]

Speaking of wire wheels, my newest picture parts book is for 1921 and never mentions them.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Morgan Wright (see edit history)

[jbbuick22]

   It looks like it is a model 41 I guess the body is a little shorter to make room for the trunk platform .

 

  Also the 23 6 cyl use an alum cam gear and the reverse shift pattern.

 

It is a good looking car, you will enjoy driving it.

 

 

John,

22-6-55 Sport touring

 

 

[dibarlaw]

Simnut:

 I was doing my 1925-25 in a (2) mode. Unfortunately the engine was too tired to be rejuvenated. So with the engine out for a rebuild I started sliding down the slippery slope of "well while the engine is out I will repaint the front end. Since I did this I might as well have some platting done"......
 I still vote for a #2. One frustration on my 1925 was that I could not drive it more than a mile or 2 without severe overheating. Once I took care of that (new radiator core) we finally began enjoying the drive!

 I wish I could find the posting of the one for sale several years ago. Many good color photos. It surprised me to see that you have a nickeled radiator shell. These model 41s had the black baked enamel radiator shells as well as the fenders, splash aprons, mud pan etc. Any thing that could be removed to go through an oven. The lower body is to be maroon with black above the belt molding surrounding the windows. Again, a great photo on page 181 color portfolio of "The Buick A complete history" 6th edition 2002.

 This is a McLaughlin Buick coupe but shows the correct color arrangement with the black radiator shell with the thin aluminum bead around the radiator opening.

 

A better view of the color on the Model 55 Sport Touring.  My all time favorite Buick!

[Simnut]

Thanks John!  I'm looking forward to regularly driving it around town...in the dryer, warmer months though lol

 

  I love the color of those cars Larry!  I think we will start from the wheels, then the hubs, the axles, the rear end right on through to the transmission and engine.   Then the interior.  Not much wood work required but upholstery is a definite job to be done.  Sound like that will work, the right methodology to getting her back on the road?  By we I mean my son and I.  He is taking a REAL liking to this car!  This is gonna be awesome!

 

Is there any way to find out how many of these vehicles are still around?  That may sway the amount of work I should do to it..................

[Simnut]

Couple more pics of my auto!

 

[garnetkid]

welcome to this very welcoming site.  My car now living in Summerland BC started life in Alberta as well. Is yours a McLaughlin Buick? I located it south of Hussar and took about 7 years to restore it starting in 1977.  You have an excellent vehicle to start with.  Here is a picture of mine as I found it.  Have fun with it.  Leon

[Simnut]

1 hour ago, garnetkid said:

welcome to this very welcoming site.  My car now living in Summerland BC started life in Alberta as well. Is yours a McLaughlin Buick? I located it south of Hussar and took about 7 years to restore it starting in 1977.  You have an excellent vehicle to start with.  Here is a picture of mine as I found it.  Have fun with it.  Leon

 

I am quite sure it a model made in the US, going by the frame and engine numbers.  Summerland is a beautiful area by the way!!  And boy, did you have a project eh?  Could you post a finished pic of her?  Right now I'm trying to see if the 1923 license plate that I found in the car belongs to this car and is it's first plate.  May be a very good starting point to find it's history.  I think this is a good start for my foray into the antique automobiles!!!  And yes sir, I fully intend to have fun with it!

[4Hud]

As far as I know, here in Alberta all the old registration records are not accessible prior to when they switched over to a computerized system in the 1980's.

 Great car you have there. I agree with the fix-while-you-go method. To quote the phrase many of the experienced folks use. "Make it stop, make it go and then make it pretty".

[Brian_Heil]

Rare car.

 

Yours is only the 3rd or 4th one I have seen in 22 years of my Model 45 1923 ownership.

 

Check all your glass.  First thing I changed was to remove all the plate glass and replace with safety glass.  A must.

 

Another 1923 single year (6 cylinder) feature is the 3 small doors on the valve cover for oiling the rockers.  I see you have those.

 

As mentioned your vehicle had a larger volume fuel tank and side fill.

[jbbuick22]

I think the gas tank has been replaced. With a factory trunk the gas filler should be outside of the right frame rail .The trunk sits

on a wood platform .

 It should be a 22 gal tank like the models 54 and 55 use, and the gauge should  say 22 gal

  When  I get home I can post a copy of the parts book page.

 

John

22-6-55 Sport touring

[Simnut]

9 hours ago, 4Hud said:

As far as I know, here in Alberta all the old registration records are not accessible prior to when they switched over to a computerized system in the 1980's.

 Great car you have there. I agree with the fix-while-you-go method. To quote the phrase many of the experienced folks use. "Make it stop, make it go and then make it pretty".

 

  Love that last line sir!  Will be my motto!

 

I just got an email back this morning from a historian I know in Red Deer , Alberta and he mentioned I may be able to get a list of people to whom license plates were issued through the Provincial Archives in Edmonton.  He will help and do what he can as this may very well have been an Albertan car in it's first year.  Here's hoping!!!

[Simnut]

1 hour ago, Brian_Heil said:

Rare car.

 

Yours is only the 3rd or 4th one I have seen in 22 years of my Model 45 1923 ownership.

 

Check all your glass.  First thing I changed was to remove all the plate glass and replace with safety glass.  A must.

 

Another 1923 single year (6 cylinder) feature is the 3 small doors on the valve cover for oiling the rockers.  I see you have those.

 

As mentioned your vehicle had a larger volume fuel tank and side fill.

 

  I am having trouble finding photos of this model in "real" life.  There is a couple videos on you tube showing my model, one running, the other not.  I checked the plate glass and it is already tempered or safety glass.  Cool thing is, all the side windows work......roll down with the original mechanisms.  I would like to find interior shots of the upholstery and how it looked back in the day.  I will take a picture of what I believe to be the original fabric I found yesterday nailed to one of the doors.  A dusty rose color. 

 

I agree Brian, I will have to find, buy or trade for the larger tank soon.  May as well start with that eh?

[Hubert_25-25]

Harry, 

    This is the advice that I was given from Larry DiBarry when I first made contacts in trying to put together my 1925 Buick.  I added a few items as I have gained knowledge of what it takes to put my car back together.  

 

Welcome to Buick ownership.  Here are some tips to get you started.

The following books are necessary for Pre war Buick Ownership.   They come based on 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder models prior to 1925, or for Standard or Master 1925 and up.  The Buick Heritage Alliance sells these.  The quality of the copies is only “fair” in many cases.  This may work for some people, depending on how many pieces your car is missing.  I suggest buying an original book if you can find it due to the better print quality.   

1)      The “Book of Parts” for your year.  

2)      The “Shop Manual” for your year

3)      The “reference book” (of lesser importance if you can find a shop manual).

It is helpful in many cases to obtain copies of the parts books for 1 or 2 years before and after your model year.  Many times there is additional information or photos that will help with your understanding.

Note: Only a handful of parts used on a 4 cylinder model fit a 6 cylinder model.  Same with so few Standard parts will fit a Master.  The 4 cylinder line became the Standard, and the 6 cylinder line became the Master so there is interchangeability in that order.       

There is also available a big book of parts “Buick Master Parts List 1916-1932”.  This 3” thick book provides a listing of the years and models for each part.  You will have better luck finding a part knowing it’s year and model range rather than just looking for a single year.   This book does not have a lot of pictures and will not be a good substitute for the book of parts for your year, but I refer to this book frequently.

There are few exploded views of parts, so take a lot of photos and notes during disassembly. 

Hugh

[Leif Holmberg]

1923 gas tanks.

Leif in Sweden.

[Brian_Heil]

Good luck on that tank.  Rare.

 

I'd do what someone said above.  Get it to run, then stop, then drive and check your safety items like the glass and tires etc..  Once you find how much fun it is to take on a ride you will keep chipping away at the things you need.

 

We are all here to help and we all started with something, often much less than what you have.

[jbbuick22]

I can send you some pics and dimensions, it is the same shape as the one you have just longer.

 

 

John

22-6-55 Sport touring

[Simnut]

56 minutes ago, jbbuick22 said:

I can send you some pics and dimensions, it is the same shape as the one you have just longer.

 

 

John

22-6-55 Sport touring

 

A fuel tank?  Is the filler on the side as opposed to the middle?

 

[Simnut]

Dang it!!!  Now I gotta go look at a '29 Essex. (Slap forehead)  What have I gotten into ........     Love it!

[jbbuick22]

The gas tank on the model 41 has the same part #158835 as the model 55 sport touring.

See Lief's last post. The reason for the longer filler neck is that it has to go through the wood trunk platform.

 

Send a PM

 

John

[Hubert_25-25]

Just making sure that you had this picture from the 1923 Brochure.

 

[dibarlaw]

Hugh :

 And the 1923-55 I offered on in Arizona had the original travel trunk!

[Simnut]

Would these photos show the remnants of the original upholstery material and color?

 

[Simnut]

Another inquiry from me!  Can anyone identify this  vehicle parked in front of a dealer in this old photo?  This photo surfaced when I googled 1923 Buick dealers....in my attempt to research the history of this particular car. It wouldn't be a 1923 Buick , would it?