1911 - 1927 Locomobile 48 & 38 Gathering Place

[jcrow]

Pretty sure that neither the maroon car (ex Jack Passey) or the gray and blue

car carry original coachwork. Can provide more info if needed. PM me.

 

Johnny

[edinmass]

8 hours ago, jcrow said:

Pretty sure that neither the maroon car (ex Jack Passey) or the gray and blue

car carry original coachwork. Can provide more info if needed. PM me.

 

Johnny

 

And people wonder why I say that history from new that is rock solid verifiable is the only way to buy a car.........NOTHING is real until it's proven.

[jrbartlett]

This hobby is maddening. The blue Loco currently for sale on the HCCA website is one of the multiple cars I tried to buy when I was seeking a Sportif. It was not for sale, despite not being actively used. Later, a number of the cars I had sought became available. 

[George K]

Heavy duty Locomobile.

[George K]

On 7/9/2022 at 7:40 PM, alsancle said:

I like it minus the tires.

No only the whitewalls get rid of the donut hole side mounts. They belong on the rear like a good Locomobile.

[alsancle]

3 hours ago, jrbartlett said:

This hobby is maddening. The blue Loco currently for sale on the HCCA website is one of the multiple cars I tried to buy when I was seeking a Sportif. It was not for sale, despite not being actively used. Later, a number of the cars I had sought became available. 

Yes, an unwritten rule of a hobby. Search for years to try to buy something, finally commit, and then two months later something better at less money shows up.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 7/5/2022 at 11:39 PM, alsfarms said:

For those here who are running and driving 48 Locomobiles, I have a question for you.  When running your Locomobile, in the summer heat and with the original engine (not rebuilt), and the original radiator, do you see or sense an overheating issue?  I do not hear much talk about overheating so I am simply making a general assumption that over heating is not a serious condition that needs to be dealt with routinely.  Please share your thoughts on this subject.

Al

Dear Al, I can confirm: Locos should not have overheating issues at all. For example, I measured on my 1921 model 48 Sedan on a sunny afternoon with over 30°C (86°F) ambient temperature, after several hours of normal driving on public roads: Radiator upper part 75-80°C (167-176°F), lower part 65-75°C (149-167°F), the brass pipe between cylinder top's and radiator 80-90°C (176-194°F), engine oil sump 50°C (122°F), transmission case 40°C (104°F), tires 40°C (104°F), generator (with all lights on) 60°C (140°F), carburetor body 50°C (122°F), exhaust manifolds between 160 and 220°C (320-428°F). All numbers from memory, I can record properly if you need.

What I find remarkable: Even if you get into a traffic jam after some faster driving, you can temporarily switch off the engine and nothing happens. Just press the starter button and continue driving, nothing seems to be affected from heat accumulations or fuel vaporization.

I managed to get the radiator boiling once: During winter, slightly above the freezing point, I closed the lower half of the radiator with a folded newspaper. I did not notice that the wind soon unfolded the paper, and it covered the whole radiator then. I think I drove less than 2 miles when I saw steam coming out of the radiator overflow pipe. I removed the paper, and another 2-3 miles later I checked the radiator: It had already fallen below 40°C (104°F). These large radiators are really effective!

[prewarnut]

Is the blue Sportif a Bridgeport body? It has a neat look to the rear.

[alsfarms]

Prewarnut posed an interesting question about the Manufacturer of Blue Sportif shown above.  George do you know if more than one Mfg'r. built Sportif bodies? Or was the Sportif built by just one body builder?

Al

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by alsfarms
Clarity (see edit history)

[John Bloom]

6 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Prewarnut posed an interesting question about the Manufacturer of Blue Sportif shown above.  George do you know if more than one Mfg'r. built Sportif bodies? Or was the Sportif built by just one body builder?

Al

 

 

 

I wondered that to Alan. Speaking of the sportif body, Hyman has this relatively new listing. 
 

https://hymanltd.com/vehicles/7329-1925-locomobile-48/

 

 

[alsfarms]

I have not been acquainted with this particular Locomobile.  It looks nice and at a starting price of $98,000 should find a new home.  I really doubt that you can restore one of these, hiring it all out, for that money, even if an unrestored Locomobile is given to you!  The spotlight looks like a cross over from another make but looks nice. I have not seen a hubcap emblem fixed to the top tank of the radiator.  Is that an optional feature?

Al

[prewarnut]

...maybe the market crash will work in my favor, but I still need to wait two years.

 

   It has dawned on me, for a vehicle in the class of RR, Pierce, Packard, Cunningham, Duesenberg it seems to have flashier colors than what would be expected for the northeast upper class buyers of the time. Am I off the mark? Are the restorations taking liberties on this and/or are there color choices from contemporary literature still available to confirm or refute?

[alsfarms]

Is anyone here familiar with the provenance of the current Hyman Tan Locomobile 48 Sportif shown above?

Al

[alsfarms]

Here is a front view of the current Hyman Locmobile 48 for sale.  What are thoughts on the hubcap emblem fixed to the top tank of the radiator?  I wonder about the Locmobile script that appears to have a slight arc, is that proper?  I thought the script would be straight?  I could fall in love with this Locomobile, purple fluted lenses, spot light and all.

Al

Edited July 16, 2022 by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Here is a side view of the same Locomobile.  The listed price is in line and appears to be favorable for the new owner?  My taste would have been for blackwall tires with the light colored body, but these wide whites are OK.

Al

[alsfarms]

Here is the top up, does not appear to have lots of weather on the top but the back panel could be tightened up to look more pristine,

Al

[alsancle]

Nice car, but the colors date it to a 70s or 80s restoration. The white walls are very unfortunate. But relatively easy to fix, once you can find tires, which isn’t as easy as it used to be.

[alsfarms]

I agree with your assessment.  I can get the body color but for me it is the fender color that I am having to chew on.  I guess I have changed over time, just as a young kid doesn't like onions, Swiss cheese and asparagus, now that I am more seasoned those things are staple to my liking and diet, I used to think that all old vehicles needed to be laced up with white walls to be "cool".  Not any more, white walls need to put on the right vehicle to support the whole ambiance that the eye sees, just as adding swiss cheese and onions to our favorite foods, it needs to be done fairly.  That was a mouthful!

Al

 

[alsfarms]

One last thought.  I am very complimentary to the marketing approach, via pictures, used by Hyman.  The photography is stunning to show off each automobile that they have for sale including this Locomobile Sportif.  I think the last Locomobile, they sold, was a later black Limousine that was more original but still superbly shown to us in great picture form.

Al

Edited July 17, 2022 by alsfarms
spelling (see edit history)

[George K]

On 7/15/2022 at 1:43 PM, alsfarms said:

Prewarnut posed an interesting question about the Manufacturer of Blue Sportif shown above.  George do you know if more than one Mfg'r. built Sportif bodies? Or was the Sportif built by just one body builder?

Al

 

 

 

Very elusive question. That was the intention of the Locomobile factory by not allowing the coach builder to badge them. As to the Sportif there are early 1916/17 and late style like the 1922 with the text.

[prewarnut]

The Hyman car has a 2005 AACA badge but it could have been shown/judged years after the restoration. The ad above shows a light colored car interestingly. This one probably needs to be seen in person to better judge the color acceptablility. For the price I wouldn't kick it out of the garage. Nice bonus to have 4 wheel drums.

[edinmass]

Doing some Ghost research this week, it was 200 hours and 1500 in parts for a factory upgrade to four wheel brakes. That was the “kit” price in Springfield. Gives you an idea how “simple” early cars are. When it comes to the high end stuff like Rolls, Loco, Crane, ect………..they just are not that simple. I would expect the front brakes on the Hyman car would make the driving experience three to five times better than just the rears. That’s a lot of a Loco for the money……….I could even live with the white walls. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George K]

Here’s a Locomobile front brake setup.

[edinmass]

George……..your library for pre 1925 is impressive. And I’m guessing it’s a fifty year ongoing project. Thanks for posting. 
 

Have you driven a four wheel brake Loco as well as a two? Interested in your opinion on drivability from one to the  other.

 

Car Hyman has for sale says it had upgraded hydraulic brakes….…….from a different listing.

Edited July 17, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George K]

14 hours ago, edinmass said:

George……..your library for pre 1925 is impressive. And I’m guessing it’s a fifty year ongoing project. Thanks for posting. 
 

Have you driven a four wheel brake Loco as well as a two? Interested in your opinion on drivability from one to the  other.

 

Car Hyman has for sale says it had upgraded hydraulic brakes….…….from a different listing.

Ed,  I have found from experience to understand as deeply as possible any automobile I have interest in. My library has shrunk to just a few cars that caught my eye late in the day. Most times I working from memory in which I can feel the change as time goes by.

 I have not driven a late Locomobile with four corner brakes. I am sure they are much improved in that department.

One last observation on Locomobile. When reviewing the CCCA list of automobiles that are accepted they list Locomobile  1915-1924. That would make the Hyman car ineligible. Maybe a typo.

Best as always, George 

[edinmass]

Locomobile – 1915-1924; All includes left hand drive models 48 and all model 90; 1927-1929 Model 8-80; 1929 Model 8-88

 

Above from CCCA........so the 1925 is most likely a typo.........any Series 48 is a CCCA classic.  Typical confusion when obscure cars are involved.

[alsfarms]

Just a point of interest, the Locomobile 48 actually started production in 1911.  Are the earlier right hand 48's omitted?  As said by Ed, the water is sometimes murky when considering years, models, makes and design parameters.

Al

[George K]

24 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

Just a point of interest, the Locomobile 48 actually started production in 1911.  Are the earlier right hand 48's omitted?  As said by Ed, the water is sometimes murky when considering years, models, makes and design parameters.

Al

No Locomobile right hand cars are accepted in CCCA.

[George K]

Side note 1914 Locomobiles came right or left handed. Even a left hand 1914 in still out.

[alsfarms]

Looking over the factory photos of the several different Sportif Locomobile 48's, provided by George, it is easy to note a difference in front fender treatment.  The lower photo that calls out the "New Sports Car" has a sloped front fender while the other apparently more custom Sportif designs have a rounded style more like  what I recall found on touring cars.  What is the take others may have on fender treatment? Realizing that these are custom automobiles, I have a question.  If I were wealthy enough to be buying a new Locomobile 48 in 1923.  Help me be comfortable with the buying process.  Would I go to a dealer, make the purchase, pick a body, paint and interior, then simply wait for delivery?  (This infers that Locomobile would maintain control of the Locomoibile being built until ready for delivery).  The second thought, would I buy the complete chassis outright, then determine who would build the body and then take possession from a third party vendor.  Thirdly, I suppose that you could purchase a new running gear to be built into a truck, ambulance or wrecker but I do not think Locomobile would relinquish control of this upscale automobile into the hands of a third party vendor.  I would think that any vendor must have had to dance to the music played by Locomobile or they simply would not be invited to the party of body building. By keeping control of the chassis through the original building process, Locomobile would then supply or mandate, for the most part, fenders, lights, dash assembly wheels and etc.  It would have been an exciting time to go through the ordering process for a new 1923 Locomobile.  Does anyone have more or additional information on this subject to share?

Al

[alsfarms]

hmmm... Note that on the pictures posted by George, above, it certainly looks like two of the Locomobiles show white wall tires and the third looks like potentially gray tires. 

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 7/13/2022 at 12:41 AM, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Dear Al, I can confirm: Locos should not have overheating issues at all. For example, I measured on my 1921 model 48 Sedan on a sunny afternoon with over 30°C (86°F) ambient temperature, after several hours of normal driving on public roads: Radiator upper part 75-80°C (167-176°F), lower part 65-75°C (149-167°F), the brass pipe between cylinder top's and radiator 80-90°C (176-194°F), engine oil sump 50°C (122°F), transmission case 40°C (104°F), tires 40°C (104°F), generator (with all lights on) 60°C (140°F), carburetor body 50°C (122°F), exhaust manifolds between 160 and 220°C (320-428°F). All numbers from memory, I can record properly if you need.

What I find remarkable: Even if you get into a traffic jam after some faster driving, you can temporarily switch off the engine and nothing happens. Just press the starter button and continue driving, nothing seems to be affected from heat accumulations or fuel vaporization.

I managed to get the radiator boiling once: During winter, slightly above the freezing point, I closed the lower half of the radiator with a folded newspaper. I did not notice that the wind soon unfolded the paper, and it covered the whole radiator then. I think I drove less than 2 miles when I saw steam coming out of the radiator overflow pipe. I removed the paper, and another 2-3 miles later I checked the radiator: It had already fallen below 40°C (104°F). These large radiators are really effective!

Yesterday I had the chance to verify the operating temperatures on my 1921 Sedan (model 48), after coming home from a tour. About 30 miles of continuous driving with much sunshine in the early afternoon (82°F ambient temperature was reported), which should be enough to reach working temperatures. After normal country roads and crossing the city center of Bonn, the final stretch to my home consists of 6 miles of highway, then get off to a smaller road, climbing 790 feet from the Rhine valley to the top of the seven mountains ("Siebengebirge") for app. 3 miles (all in high gear besides one narrow turn), less than 5 minutes later I stopped the engine in the garage and immediately took measurements with an infrared gauge:

Radiator upside right side 152°F, left 169°F, lower left corner 165°F, lower right corner 158°F.

engine oil pan 150-155°F

carburetor body near choke valve: 136°F, float chamber 120°F (the pre-heating flap at the exhaust was 1/3 open)

intake manifold: 1st block 194°F, 2nd 185°F, rear 178°F

exhaust manifold: 1st block 257°F, middle 284°F, rear 271°F, the flange between manifold and pipe (near firewall) 338°F.

generator 152°F

Transmission case 117°F, rear axle back cover 100°F.

tires front left 82, front right 93, rear left 97, rear right 102°F

Maybe this can be interesting as a reference. Best regards!

 

[prewarnut]

13 hours ago, alsfarms said:

 Help me be comfortable with the buying process.  Would I go to a dealer, make the purchase, pick a body, paint and interior, then simply wait for delivery?  (This infers that Locomobile would maintain control of the Locomoibile being built until ready for delivery). 

 

 

Al,

   I'm not an expert and would look forward to other opinions. I think the customary process is probably like this (by late '20s/early '30s): Customer goes to a manufacturer's dealer/agent and discusses, looks over brochures, specs something out. The dealer or agent may even sketch out drawings for a return visit and then an initial deposit is made. The order is sent to the manufacturer (say Locomobile). A chassis number is assigned and started. When complete the chassis/engine gets sent to the body builder (whichever one is selected or has a relationship, unless done in-house as part of a lower-priced model or "semi-custom" line). The completed body is set on the frame and sent back to the dealer. The customer is called and either picks up (with payment in full) or delivery is arranged. I think Locomobile would relinquish the frame but as asked a few days ago about the Sportif, I'm not sure who their full array of coachbuilders were. Probably they had relationships with those in New Haven and NYC at least for exceptional clients.

   As a note, there was a thread last year on the forums about a special Packard or Cadillac towncar (I think the former but forget) from the Philly area. There is correspondance from the historical society in Philly which outlines the letters back and forth from this client (actually I found a few clients amidst their archives) which show this process. The process took about 4-5 months and there was a case that when the car returned from the coachbuilder a couple items were damaged or scratched and the dealer had to re-order parts from the manufacturer and then find the time to go out to the client's house and install (or have the car picked up and brought back). Thus the order and delivery wasn't cancelled but some back and forth and I'm sure reimbursement of expense had to occur with these relationships.

- Dan.

[Walt G]

In all of the period photographs of the Locomobile series 38 and 48 I have never seen a emblem mounted at the top of the front of the radiator shell just below the radiator cap. This includes the original hard bound  showroom album for their New York City dealer Hare's Motors of photos mounted on linen .  Among the piles of research material here is one I have for Locomobile coachwork of the WWI to 1929 era that will be in a story I will pen after I get the other 3 stories I have in the progress on other subjects finished , - yes I am supposed to be retired . Now if I could stay away from these wonderful forums I can get some things accomplished/finished. Editors would be very happy with that...............🙃

[alsfarms]

Walt, thanks for your contributions to this forum and Locomobile discussions in general!  I have never seen a factory photograph that shows a Locomobile script radiator emblem...ever...except on the cream colored Sportif shown above.  I wonder if this is just a personal added touch by one of the past owners.  After all, these are custom automobiles.

Al

[Walt G]

Quite possibly ( most likely?)  the emblem was added in restoration, saves answering a lot of questions as to what the car is ( if there was no script on it the only way to really tell would be to bend down to read the hubcap!) I don't think the emblem was added during the period when the car was new. It just wasn't done - people who could afford cars like this and others of similar lofty $ didn't care if anyone knew what they owned! It wasn't the attitude of that era at all, unlike today where the "flash" of the cost factor is something most want to throw in peoples faces to prove they are "better". I study the thought, dynamics, etc of the era as much as the cars themselves - my other hat is as a certified state historian of state, local and national history. Decades ago when visiting England I would spend days walking around London observing architecture of assorted eras pre WWII and toured row buildings under restoration at the invite of the people working on them, My perception of what I see, learn etc is a bit different, not by choice it just happens .

Edited July 19, 2022 by Walt G
typo correction (see edit history)

[edinmass]

4 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Walt, thanks for your contributions to this forum and Locomobile discussions in general!  I have never seen a factory photograph that shows a Locomobile script radiator emblem...ever...except on the cream colored Sportif shown above.  I wonder if this is just a personal added touch by one of the past owners.  After all, these are custom automobiles.

Al

Common over branding and badging done  for/by an inexperienced collector who feels they must add or embellish something that is conservative and refined with good taste. Less is always more with high end motor cars……….quality never goes out of style. Recently Peg & I went for a ride in my employer’s everyday car……it had a large letter B on the grill. Upon sitting down in the Monstrous sedan she commented….”Wow, what a nice Buick!” Of course the Flying Spur V-12 was just a bit more high end. I let out a whoop and almost passed out. The Boss turned to me and said….”She isn’t a car girl…..” 

[alsfarms]

At least she was willing to go with you and make a comment!  A lucky boy you are!  A tolerant wife is a blessing for some of us!

Al

 

[prewarnut]

...or didn't say "nice Mulsanne".

[George K]

Al, This must be your 48.