1911 - 1927 Locomobile 48 & 38 Gathering Place

[edinmass]

On 12/4/2019 at 3:58 PM, jrbartlett said:

Re: Driving Loco vs. Pierce & Rolls

 

I have not driven a Pierce or Rolls. But after I bought my Loco, I was talking to a big-time Pierce fan who told me quite forcefully that the Model 48 Pierce was a better driving car due to easier steering, and the absence of rear-spring wind-up while backing up. My Loco has the latter; when you need to slip the clutch while backing up the car tends to buck. I don't think it's the clutch, as there's no clutch chatter at all when going forward, even when slipping the clutch.  It's interesting that the respective Loco and Pierce 48 models have the same wheelbase, engine size and wheel size. Probably ought to drive similarly. But I do consider the Loco Sportif the better looking of the two.   

 

 

Having driven multiple examples of all three, including the Davenport car now owned by Jim, I shall opine. All are great cars, and quite different from each other. I would own any of them with equal satisfaction. The Pierce is the best driving car hands down. Then the Rolls and followed by the Loco. I would describe the Loco as "a car guy's car", as is the Rolls. You can hand a Pierce off to a beginner and they will be fine. I prefer the styling of most Pierce cars over the Rolls or Loco. There are not too many fantastic looking Silver Ghost's.....there are some stunning Loco's, be we don't get to see them often. I like the more obscure and unusual makes...........and the Loco fills that spot the best. Most of the Pierce cars are factory bodies......so they tend to be "vanilla" from the looks standpoint. There is no perfect car, just cars that make the owners happy. I would also add that Simplex would come in front of a Rolls or Loco. 

Edited October 29, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[jrbartlett]

I can't disagree on the Simplex. And maybe a big Thomas Flyer. 

[alsfarms]

Ed and James, This hobby of ours is nothing more than a bunch of race horse owners.  We all like what we like, even though by test the fastest, toughest might be proven for a specific circumstance.  The major marques are just that, major marques.  Thomas, Daniels, Simplex are also in the "major marques" catagory along with Stoddard Dayton, the English Alvis.  Yet, my question still remains, by the mid 1920's Pierce-Arrow had come to the market with a different big car the Model 36.  Rolls-Royce was bringing out the P1 and Locomobile brought out the Model 90 to be in class with the P-A 36 but still offered the 48.  I am yet curious to hear from those willing to speak with experience about weight and horsepower changes as well as convenience and comfort, no battles requested.

Al

[alsfarms]

How many here are in the process of working on their Model 48 Locomobiles.  I am curious what types of repairs or restoration are in progress.

Al

[edinmass]

Al, no battles here. There are lots of great cars.........I have driven a Chadwick............fantastic and ridiculous, the fastest tank ever built before WWI. The build quality is insane..........the car is an animal. Since there are none, it’s almost not worth talking about in the list of great cars...........If I’m not mistaken, all of them are owned by one individual. When it comes to the great and legendary T heads, Loco is always in the top of my list. You could probably do a doctoral dissertation on the evolving changes that Loco, Pierce, Crane, Rolls, and all the rest did to their cars over time. Was the 48 chassis identical from start to finish? Same crash box? Same ignition and carburetion? I have never had a chance to service or drive enough of them to ever get any feeling for them, as I have only driven Loco’s in a parking lot. Hard to get a true feel for any car unless you have a few hundred miles on them. There are so few Pierce 33 & 36 guys who actually drive them, that information will be hard to come across. The 33 & 36 Pierce are very complicated and expensive cars to service, for what is in my opinion moderate power and performance at best. Thus, I will not own one.........I would prefer the Loco over them by ten to one.......It’s just a more interesting car to me.

Edited November 2, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[AHa]

Isn't there a Chadwick in a museum on the top of a mountain in Japan? Then there is the guy who has been rebuilding one forever and recently was adding the blower. I have heard of one or two touring cars. All I can say is, Ed, you are one very lucky fellow. I can only dream of seeing a Chadwick in real life, much less driving one. 

[alsfarms]

Chadwick, Mathison, Simplex, Alco and Locomobile surely all fit in a catagory different from the typical marques of the day.  I haven't heard much about the west coast 1908 Chadwick speed car lately.  I think it is up and running now.  Does anyone have current information? I have seen a very nice Mathison in a Utah collection.  Those were the days.

Al

Edited November 5, 2021 by alsfarms
Clarity (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Here is a question for seven passenger body style owners.  Has anyone seen, either on Locomobile or other big automobiles, a jump seat design that slides under the front seats, (not the type that folds up against the back of the front seats as is more typical)?  Could you share pictures that could be used as reference by other owners here who are working on jump seat assemblies?  Conversation is also helpful.  Thanks....

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Hallo Al,

watch out, this is my first post!

Thanks for asking about this jump seat which slides under the front seat for storage. This is the seat design used on my 1921 Sedan, Locomobile type 48 series 8. The seats were missing, I am in the process or reproducing them. The sliding base plates are available (just one of the two brass handles is missing).

By showing how these seats fold away, I hope someone will recognize it as a design specially used by one of the many coachbuilding firms for Locomobile.

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank
replace one vertical photo (which was shown in the wrong direction) by two horizontal photos (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Frank, Those are nice pictures of your unusual Locomobile jump seat arrangements.  This design jump seat is certainly a tidy rattle free technology.  Has anyone else seen this type of jump seat?  I am very curious who built these and which body builder used this technology.  Lastly, potentially this style jump seat may have been used by several custom body builders by request.  Please share any information that you may have regarding jump seats and share pictures.

Al

Edited November 5, 2021 by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

On the subject of jump seats.  Ed has posted some pictures and a couple of video clips of his very original 1917 White touring car that includes the jump seat arrangement. Those video clips are found in the CCCA general forum area and in the chat about Locomobile 48 and comparisons.  Maybe we will get to actually see a video of the White up and running?  Enjoy....

Al

 

[edinmass]

Al

 

Since you asked............come on down to Florida and drive the 1917 White.........it's going to be kept up at the Gilmore CCCA museum in the future. It's going to be there on a "lifetime loan" and will become part of their permanant collection when I take my final ride. It WILL be active in both CCCA and HCCA events, tours, ect....... I intend to buy a home and retire up at Hickory Corners. I'm years out from living there full time, but I hope to have a place up there in the next 18-24 months. 

 

 

Here is a video of the white on an AACA tour earlier this year......

 

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

As far as the seat hardware.......it's most certainly from one of the trade suppliers common to the coach builders and batch body makers. Probably a regional supplier.........my guess is the Hartford Ct company that was making so much stuff back then for the northeast coach builders. There were several levels of quality and materials........my 33 Pierce LeBaron had all cast bronze hardware that was plated. Heavy by both weight and look. 

[alsfarms]

Ed,  Thanks for posting the short clip of your very original White touring car running down the Florida coastline at a nice easy pace..  That White is surly a piece of Americana that should be preserved even in its current state!  The Demarest Limousine  is the closest thing I have that is a mostly original automobile.  But, by the time I get it sorted and reassembled, I will probably be doing more restoration, than I envision, to carry it to the next generation.  You 48 and 38 owners, follow the precedence set by Ed and show us a video clip of your your running and-or driving Locomobile.  First starts are very good also!  Ed, I may just surprise you and come to Florida just to take you up on your offer to drive the White!!!!

Al

Edited November 6, 2021 by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

22 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Frank, Those are nice pictures of your unusual Locomobile jump seat arrangements.  This design jump seat is certainly a tidy rattle free technology.  Has anyone else seen this type of jump seat?  I am very curious who built these and which body builder used this technology.  Lastly, potentially this style jump seat may have been used by several custom body builders by request.  Please share any information that you may have regarding jump seats and share pictures.

Al

Since the posting works, I like to add some more information on the jump seat topic. Yesterday I said the seats were missing on my Sedan. I tried to locate them, but without success: The people who might know something could not even remember having seen the seats ever. This car was used in the film business. It came from 20th Century Fox, in 1974 it was sold at the Movie World Auction, Buena Park, California, to the German who kept it until his death. I bought it from his widow in 2019. The car was also used in Germany for at least two films, in one named "Die Manns" you can see that four people sit in the back of the car, two facing the other two. I assume they placed a small bench or two separate chairs inside temporarily, because the original jump seats were not designed to sit backwards.

When I got the car, the sliding base plates with the brass hinges were the only remaining parts. But I was very lucky: During my Loco-research I found one blue Sedan having been sold at an auction in Denmark in 2016. And this had the seats which I need!

[Ittenbacher Frank]

The car sold in Denmark obviously has the same body design as mine. It clearly shows the manufacturers name "Brewster & Co" on the sill plate. Among all the photos from that auction I found one showing what I was looking for: The original jump seats removed from their hinges and stored loosely in the back of the car! This gave me already the first idea how the linkages might fold in and out. I enlarged and printed the photo, measured the levers and distances, and tried to calculate the real size of the parts. But it didn't work, I could not figure out the mechanism.

Several months later I found the same Locomobile on the internet: Today it belongs to a private museum in Estonia. I contacted the owner, and this man was very supportive: He explained that they still keep the jump seats stored in their warehouse. They took app. 50 high-resolution photos of all details while putting a measuring tape at the parts, and sent them to me. I am glad they supported me in such a friendly and professional way because these measurements are very useful. Karel, if you ever read this: Thanks again!!!

Edited November 7, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank
added last sentence (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

The next step for recreating the jump seats was designing the single parts as 3D-models and connecting them into one motion model. I soon found that the position of the joints and the length of the levers is critical to the folding process in general and the height when folded in. It took me several nights and many attempts until I was satisfied with the design. Finally it became a matter of changing the levers less than 1 mm in various directions, in order to get the seat cushion parallel to the base plate and low enough for the given space in my car when the seats are folded in.

Extracting the drawings from the 3D-models and getting all the parts laser-cut by a specialist supplier was an easy task.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

The photos of the original jump seats showed the approximate size and shape of the bolts. I made them on the lathe. I chose the diameter for the bearing surface several mm bigger than the tread. The face between the bolt's cylindrical part and threaded part is used to tighten the bolts well without using a lock nut. By doing this, the side clearance of the levers is determined by the length of the bolt's cylindrical part.

Some bending, welding, machining, grinding and polishing was also needed for the joints to the backrest, because these parts have to move side-by-side when folding in.

By now I have assembled one side of one jump seat as a test, and it seems to work fine.

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank
added better photos (see edit history)

[edinmass]

I would have guessed they were done on a water jet. Well done, modern technology is getting easier to access, but still not simple. Interesting to see them worked out on a computer program to test range of motion. Imagine doing it back in 1915...........some old guy stuck in an office working it all out with a slide rule and then cardboard cut outs. 

[edinmass]

Al, your always welcome to take one my cars for a spin......it’s the best way to enjoy the hobby...... I took the 17 to breakfast this morning, had to wait for the heavy rain to let up. Drove it through some puddles 10 inches deep.......it’s probably 90 years since it has done anything approaching a water crossing. Sadly, I have been so busy I haven’t been able to enjoy my own cars. With luck, things will settle down and we can finish the Stearns, and make more progress on the 15 White. It will probably be the new year before all the personal projects are back in full swing. We are trying to get the 15 ready for the HCCA tour near Orlando in February. It’s gonna be close, as the clutch in the 15 is smoked, and it will probably need a new disk, water jetted or laser cut, and then any other issues that always seem to kick us in the arse. It’s 9pm, and I’m going into the shop now to get a car ready for a short tour tomorrow. 

[Ittenbacher Frank]

8 hours ago, edinmass said:

Al, your always welcome to take one my cars for a spin......it’s the best way to enjoy the hobby...... I took the 17 to breakfast this morning, had to wait for the heavy rain to let up. Drove it through some puddles 10 inches deep.......it’s probably 90 years since it has done anything approaching a water crossing. Sadly, I have been so busy I haven’t been able to enjoy my own cars. With luck, things will settle down and we can finish the Stearns, and make more progress on the 15 White. It will probably be the new year before all the personal projects are back in full swing. We are trying to get the 15 ready for the HCCA tour near Orlando in February. It’s gonna be close, as the clutch in the 15 is smoked, and it will probably need a new disk, water jetted or laser cut, and then any other issues that always seem to kick us in the arse. It’s 9pm, and I’m going into the shop now to get a car ready for a short tour tomorrow. 

Dear Edinmass, I am happy to read you drive your cars also in less-than-perfect weather conditions. How do the White brakes work when wet? I found the 48 Loco a bit tricky: During heavy rain the foot-operated external contracting band is useless for at least 50 meters, then it starts working. I found three ways to avoid trouble: Driving more slowly (not advisable on main roads), keep the foot lightly on the brake pedal (not always convenient), or use the internal expanding handbreak instead (works ok). What do you do? Or is it a matter of the lining used on the band?

The foot brake on my 1921 Sedan puzzeled me a lot in the beginning: After I got the engine started for the first time and drove out from the garage, the braking only started when the pedal nearly touched the floorboards, and their action was weak. I thought the previous owner didn't adjust it for a long time, so I did. The result was: As soon as the brake gots a bit warm, it started binding, got hotter and finally locked completely. In this situation it is very hard to loosen the adjuster again! I tried a lot but could not find a satisfying adjustment. Then one Sunday I went so see a friend near Frankfurt (a round trip of app. 180 miles), drove the Loco on smaller very hilly roads and used the brake as much as possible, but managed to keep their temperature below 100°C. I re-adjusted them sometimes, and in the evening the problem was solved, the brakes had bedded in and work very well now. I have not adjusted them ever since.

Later I talked to a close friend of the previous owner, who remembered where the brake linings had been purchased. I contacted the shop's general manager, and really, he found the invoice in his computer! In 2007 the linings were replaced, but the car was most probably driven on the road for the last time in 2002. This leeds to the assumption that my brakes were just too new!

[edinmass]

The White is similar that if they are too tight when cold, they will bind and lock up when warm. It’s easy to get them to overheat if you apply them for too long a time. In particular, the White is very heavy......and the brakes suffer for it. Between the horsepower being over 70, and the four speed overdrive the car could really use better brakes. It’s easy to get going too fast, and then problems occur with safety. If driven like road conditions were in 1917........it has adequate brakes. 

[alsfarms]

Ed, I am curious how weight of your White compares to the weight of Frank's Locomobile 48 sedan.  I assume that both of these automobiles have only rear brakes?

Al

[edinmass]

Al, my 17 White is heavy..........much more than I anticipated when I bought it from the photos. The frame is more like a ten ton dump truck. Best guess is it’s tips the scales at 4800-5100. I will get it on a scale one of these days. With only rear brakes, stopping at speed is interesting. 

[alsfarms]

What you are describing is why I am happy to have huge four wheel brakes on the 1925 Locomobile 48.  My scary brake story happened in a 1929 Model A Ford Roadster after a parade about 45 years ago.  I participated in our local 4th of July Parade, which is a big deal, with a huge number of spectators spread over more than a mile of parade route.  After the parade, my brother and I were just cruising back down main street about 20 mph, not fast for the conditions or the Model A.  When, what to our amazement, a 4 year old kid broke away from his parents and ran out in the road right in front of us.  The kid was absolutely ecstatic jumping up and down having fun and looking right at the radiator of my Model A.  I certainly was NOT ecstatic about this situation but very enthusiastically and quickly used the famous two foot pedal push to stop the Model A.  Thankfully....I had the brakes adjusted as good as Henry Ford's engineering permitted and I did get stopped about two feet from the nose of the little kid.  Everyone had a good time but me.   Neither the little kid nor his parents understood just how close that scene was to a catastrophic event.  I respect the brakes our antique automobiles have and always try to drive defensively.  I never want a rerun of that "Ecstatic" moment.  Hooray for four wheel brakes on the 6000 pound Locomobile.

Al

Edited November 7, 2021 by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

I checked my Sedan's weight on a scale, it is 2550 kg = 5620 pound, with some tools and the fuel tank half full.

As long as it is not raining heavily, the brakes are now quite good. Light to average pedal pressure is enough to slow the Loco down in normal traffic conditions. For an emergency stop you must press harder, until the wheels begin to lock. The disadvantage of the rear wheel brakes is not the poor performance (this can be solved by clever engineering and good maintenance) but the tendency to loose traction when going downhill on steep hills with slippery surface. Like an old tractor on ice: sliding.

There is one thing I find interesting: These self-energizing brakes should work well in forward direction and much less backwards. But both Loco brakes work well in both directions. The road in front of my house has a gradient of 16%, I have to test the brakes on all vehicles every day...and the clutches as well.

[alsfarms]

Hello Frank, How about a picture of the 16 deg slope that tests every vehicle that enters your yard including either of your Locomobile 48's.  You must have some pretty a scenery surrounding your estate.

Al

 

[alsfarms]

Does anyone have a spare pair of fluted lenses to match that shown in the attached picture?  The OD of lens that you see is 10-3/4" and the overall OD is 11-1/2".  Any references are appreciated if you know someone that has a pair "rat holed".  Oh yes, I would prefer lenses that do not have that nice crack in the middle.  😁

Al

 

[alsfarms]

The Demarest Limousine will see a bunch better with the right lenses.

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

7 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Frank, How about a picture of the 16 deg slope that tests every vehicle that enters your yard including either of your Locomobile 48's.  You must have some pretty a scenery surrounding your estate.

Al

 

Dear Al, yes, the area around my home is quite nice, next to a nature reserve, called "seven mountains". From the lowest level near the Rhine river the road distance is less than 5 km to reach my town, but this is already more than 250m above that Rhine level. Photos usually don't show the gradients well, but I cut some sequences from the film my wife took on my first test drive in spring 2020. The Loco was still without spare tires, floor boards and so on, the carburetor and many other things not yet adjusted well, but the engine had just started on the first try, and I wanted to try my new car so badly!

Edited November 8, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank
corrected misspelling (see edit history)

[edinmass]

One of my favorite pastimes is drinking May wine on a Rhine River cruise............I never consume more than two or three........gallons!

 

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Here is a view of the seven mountains area, with the Dragon Castle (D.) in the background (the Rhine River is hiding between the Loco and the castle). On the left is the Petersberg Hotel (P.), whis was used by the German government for many years to accommodate foreing guests, for example Hillary and Bill Clinton in 1994.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Edinmass, what do you prefer, a river cruise or a Loco cruise? I remember that day we invited friends to a small restaurant, not far from the location previously shown. I removed the American Eagle from the radiator and placed it onto the dinner table. Of course that initiated some nice talking with the waiter who was very interested in that "big old car", and then he surprized us with the appropriate wine!

[edinmass]

May wine or food German beer......difficult choice, so I choose both! Wine with breakfast and lunch, beer with dinner, and schnapps after dessert. 

[alsfarms]

Here is a Locomobile question for you owners of Locomobile 48's, later series automobiles.  The Demarest Limousine has a series of "Yale" locks for security purposes. The engine hood, storage compartments and doors all have what appears to be the same lock.  Three questions, Was all Locomobiles fitted with the same locks?  Or Conversely, Was the security locks left up to the disgression of each body builder?  Lastly, even though the Locomobiles will have a custom built body, Did Locomobile mandate some design features that will be provided regardless of the body builder?  Your thoughts please.

Al

 

[edinmass]

Yale locks from 1922 to 1934 are common on high end car applications. They were particularly attractive and had a high standard of finish on closed car interiors with dash cabinets. (That’s glove boxes for the common folk.) 

 

When it comes to mandates on chassis sales to coach builders.........nothing except radiator, hood, and front fenders were ever really standard.....and then often modified. Post WWI Loco 48 chassis were almost ancient compared to many others......more after lunch.

[alsfarms]

This goes without saying, but all accessory locks should be keyed the same.  I was not lucky to get any keys with the Demarest Limousine but am lucky to have a very good locksmith very close by.  I hope he has the correct Yale blanks in hand.

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

21 hours ago, edinmass said:

May wine or food German beer......difficult choice, so I choose both! Wine with breakfast and lunch, beer with dinner, and schnapps after dessert. 

Ok, sounds good, I will arrange that for you, and then also an ice cream afterwards?

[Ittenbacher Frank]

4 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Here is a Locomobile question for you owners of Locomobile 48's, later series automobiles.  The Demarest Limousine has a series of "Yale" locks for security purposes. The engine hood, storage compartments and doors all have what appears to be the same lock.  Three questions, Was all Locomobiles fitted with the same locks?  Or Conversely, Was the security locks left up to the disgression of each body builder?  Lastly, even though the Locomobiles will have a custom built body, Did Locomobile mandate some design features that will be provided regardless of the body builder?  Your thoughts please.

Al

 

Hallo Al,

you made me curious, therefore I just tried the keys of my '17 tourer and '21 Sedan all over. I didn't expect: the locks on the four engine hoods, eight storage compartments below the floor boards, two ignition keys and the padlock on the spare wheel carrier all use the same key!

But the four door locks on the Sedan use a different key (not only cut differently but a different blank type, the ignition key cannot enter the door locks at all. Is it the same on your Sedan?

These door locks are very solid. An internal gear is used to move the massive 1/2 inch bolt in and out.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Ittenbacher Frank
better photos (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Hello Frank,

That is most interesting.  I would have thought that the doors and ignition would have been the same and maybe the auxiliary locks would have been another key.  When I get a bit further into it, I would get a key for the auxiliary locks first and see if works all around.  I will then test the door locks.  Do your keys all appear to be original or re-cut at a later date?  What can other late series 48 owners have to say?

Regards,

Alan