Change in selling trend

[mcdarrunt]

I'm sure Matt could give a definitive answer but my customers are opting for "updates" more and more. 12v and radial tires lead the way and hydraulic brakes are the norm. Many are going away from the old babbit/splash/dipper engines and we now very seldom work on these. A-C is increasing rapidly as well as power options. When finding a car for a customer they say they will pay extra if NOT stock but rather a resto rod. Any others noticing this?

[joe_padavano]

18 minutes ago, mcdarrunt said:

I'm sure Matt could give a definitive answer but my customers are opting for "updates" more and more. 12v and radial tires lead the way and hydraulic brakes are the norm. Many are going away from the old babbit/splash/dipper engines and we now very seldom work on these. A-C is increasing rapidly as well as power options. When finding a car for a customer they say they will pay extra if NOT stock but rather a resto rod. Any others noticing this?

 

This has been going on for at least ten years now. People watch cable and are convinced the want a resto-mod.

[auburnseeker]

Problem is, alot of restomods,  never really got sorted so now they have a bunch of parts not really engineered to be together thrown into a vintage chassis without alot of for thought or even knowledge of what the parts came from so the cars even with disc brakes,  don't stop,  start or steer much better if any better than the originals. 

[edinmass]

Try and get someone to work on it. Most are poorly done, and the owners don’t understand the cars. 

[John_S_in_Penna]

Speaking for myself, I'd be very wary of buying, later,

one of your customers' cars that had been converted

from 6 volts to 12.  It would probably be a deal-breaker.

 

If a car that I own needs work, I want to be looking for,

for instance, 1955 Buick parts.  It's simpler.  Not, "Oh, these disk brakes

came from a 1990 Chevy, and I think that's a Nova suspension.

I wonder who made these aftermarket air-conditioning parts." 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Different sides of the same street.  Folks started changing to 12V as soon as it became available.  A/C the same.  Always has been thus. 

 If we all wanted clones we would have all married red heads.  No, blonds.  No===. Oh well you get the drift.

 

  Ben

[60FlatTop]

A lot of those update products are available over the counter.

 

I think some level of peer pressure drives the majority of modifications.

 

It is not hard to understand with a Ford, low end Chrysler product, or even a Chevy, but I have mostly owned Buicks. Not much benefit from changing a Buick.

[auburnseeker]

I have a friend that was a field engineer for Cadillac for 20 years and he bought a 51 Chevy Belair Hardtop with Mustang II. Vintage Air, a 305 etc.  He has spent the last 3 years sorting it out and fixing all the little stuff that was never done right or sorted, including replacing the rack completely, New bushings in the front end,  Alignment, No E brake, Brake pedal assembly that was all messed up, a rearend that was never fully installed, etc. and this was all on a turn key car that had a few thousand miles on it.  I imagine alot of the restomods cluttering up craigslist are just like this.  He works at a shop in his spare time and that's all they do.  You can't imagine all the stuff he tells me about.  I'm in a much lesser class than him,  besides his nearly 30 years more experience,  but he tells me what's going on with teh cars and I mention right back,  boy that sounds like this or that,  or doesn't it make it do this or that?   Alot of it is fairly basic stuff that someone of normal intelligence and a little bit of a gear head (not anywhere the caliber of an engineer) can see will cause a problem or what it would take to fix it. 

[edinmass]

Today there are three major problems modifying a car, first is cost......the truly capable people who have the skill set to do quality work are going to cost 75 to 150 per hour in a decent shop. The seconed is the customers willingness and ability to pay the cost of doing the modifications correctly as it’s usually very time consuming. Third is availability of finding fabrication craftsmen along the East or West coasts.........in mid America there are still pleanty of people willing to work and earn their living with their hands..........not so much near the coastline. Many of the true craftsmen working in small shops doing truly exceptional work make twice what someone with a PhD does. And personally I rather spend time socializing with one of them than someone with the alphabet nomenclature behind their name. 

Edited September 2, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[39BuickEight]

Generally, people who buy umodified cars know why they want, and people who buy modified cars don’t-they just buy what they think looks neat to them and what they think other people like.   Generally. 

[R Walling]

Resto mods, if built correctly are much easier to drive and repair.

 I have built several of them and have never had a breakdown.

People look on with amazement when I pass them at 65mph+ with my very stock looking 4 door 31 Essex.

 My 38 Buick rides like a Cadillac, it should, as it sits on a 88 Cadillac chassis.

 I do agree with an above poster that there many restro's that are a piece of crap that are on the market that were built with used parts and not installed correctly.

 

 

 

[capngrog]

What's the difference between the terms "resto-rod" and "resto-mod", and what is the logic behind each term?   Is one a "rodded restoration" and the other a "modified restoration"?  It seems to me that they are just different terms for the same ol' thang.

 

Cheers,

Grog

[60FlatTop]

1 hour ago, Roger Walling said:

People look on with amazement

 

That's what that look is called.

 

I've been so wrong for all these years.

Bernie

[39BuickEight]

7 minutes ago, capngrog said:

What's the difference between the terms "resto-rod" and "resto-mod", and what is the logic behind each term?   Is one a "rodded restoration" and the other a "modified restoration"?  It seems to me that they are just different terms for the same ol' thang.

 

Cheers,

Grog

I think the idea is that resto-mods look original from 20 ft, while rods do not.

[joe_padavano]

15 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

Problem is, alot of restomods,  never really got sorted

 

Which is why they are up for sale. ?

[joe_padavano]

47 minutes ago, capngrog said:

What's the difference between the terms "resto-rod" and "resto-mod",

 

You assume there is a standard definition of these terms. 

Frankly, I've never heard the term "resto-rod" before this thread, but I assume the "rod" part refers to pre-49 cars whereas the "resto-mod" term is usually applied to musclecars.  The latter (like the "day two car" term) were invented by people trying to justify high dollar prices on modified cars that they were too lazy or uninformed to restore correctly.  I have no issue with modified cars - pretty much all of my collector cars are modified - but I have a big problem with sellers trying to inflate the value of something based on a BS description. 

 

"Barn find"?? Really?  Do the bird droppings REALLY add to the value?

[edinmass]

I find it interesting that people do or want the resto mod for reliability........my 1936 Pierce Arrow V-12 was restored properly more than twenty five years ago, and I have only replaced tires, batteries, and two fuel tank sending units. (I replaced the factory PA unit with a 1936 Ford unit for ease of replacement, never imagining I would average eight years on each sender.) Other than a broken wire going to my distributor which was not the cars fault, I have never failed to start, run, or arrive at my destination. I did 410 miles in one day about fifteen years ago, all Interstate highway miles. Fact is almost 100 percent of the cars were reliable from 1920 onward, it’s just expensive and time consuming to make them right. I Cary NO tools whatsoever in my cars, and they are all pre war units, some known to be the “challenging” platforms. Service and prepare it properly, and you won’t have any problems. I’m about to put 1000 miles on an unrestored car in seven days of driving in the next two weeks, it’s a 1930 car that has been properly maintained and serviced, with just a little less tha 38 thousand miles. I spent six days going over it and prepping it for the run. Lots of work beforehand will mean a trouble free trip while on vacation. I can’t prevent 87 year old parts from failing, but I have done everything possible to stay ahead of the curve. The car is one of the more “difficult and challenging” platforms but I think it will be all right. Photo enclosed of my 36 Pierce and the Roadster we are running next week. Wish me luck! ?

Edited September 2, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

I can understand both camps on this topic.   If someone wants to put modern drive trains in any car that’s ok for them. If someone wants to take a rusted old body and resurrect it as a “hot rod” that’s ok. I don’t understand taking a good classic car and modifying it to a “custom” car but that’s my opinion and their right to do so. I have never understood the “George Barris” type car modification as being good looking or great but that’s my opinion. The restoration of a prewar car to “pebble beach” standards excites me when I have the good fortune to see one but that’s my pleasure and opinion. I drive a 38 Studebaker that has the original paint buffed out, rebuilt flat 6, 3 speed trans, brakes and 6 volt positive ground car. Some of it looks great other parts are well worn. I enjoy driving it and how it looks but that’s my pleasure and opinion. I’ve driven it on the Indy track ( 8 laps and never lifted like those Porsche, Ferrari and other muscle cars had too) I’ve taken it on many 500 mile trips with out a problem. It burns a little oil and leaks more than it burns (you try to have a good seal with 2 wood rear main seals). It’s a reliable, safe, fun car IF used and driven properly but that’s my opinion. 

I’m sure you get where I’m going with this but just in case someone may not understand. We all have opinions that are ok for us. Your opinion does not necessarily mean I should agree. I have every right to do what ever I want to a car that I think is right and I’m paying for ( as long as it doesn’t endanger any one else). I have the right to have my opinion and do what I want to any car I own as you do also. 

Thats what makes this hobby fun and a great way to spend our money!  In my case if the boss ( translation - wife) agrees or at least says ok. That’s what is great about this country. Embrace the diversity don’t try to suppress it. 

Have fun

Dave S 

[joe_padavano]

47 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

I don’t understand taking a good classic car and modifying it to a “custom” car but that’s my opinion and their right to do so.

 

Economics, pure and simple. It is far less expensive to build a hot rod (or any car) by starting with the nicest example you can afford. Right or wrong, it takes less money and less effort to buy a very nice original old car, and replace the drivetrain (and possibly the chassis and suspension) than to start with a dented rusty hulk. 

[60FlatTop]

54 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

If someone wants to take a rusted old body and resurrect it as a “hot rod” that’s ok.

 

When I graduated from High School I wanted to become an English teacher. So I am always in trouble for reading, comprehending, and playfully taking things literally.

 

I would enjoy giving that sentence to a group and asking them to rewrite it in their own words. I have a feel for the sentiment and it always brings a smile.

Bernie

Edited September 2, 2018 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[28 Chrysler]

I just talked to a young guy who bought a 1947 Ford that had been just "updated for reliability" with duel master cylinder & front  disk brakes. He was having rear problems with the rear drums getting hot and a spongy petal. He took the car in to a shop and they discovered  leaky flares, wrong and poorly installed parts,

[John_S_in_Penna]

There have been some interesting observations

in this thread.  However, after Posting #2, no one

(including me) addressed the original question of

whether we see less interest in authentic antiques

these days.

 

Myself, I don't know, because I'm immersed only in

the antique-car section of the hobby.

[John348]

When I want to drive my new car I drive my new car, when I dive my old cars I want to feel like I am driving and old car! Everyone feels they need disc brakes, if they only drove the car while keeping a safe distance it would not be a concern. I have gotten tired of the "safety excuse" to modify a perfectly operating vintage car. 

[60FlatTop]

Just got back from a nice ride in my 1960 Buick Electra Version 1.0, seemed pretty good. No updates required.

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, 28 Chrysler said:

I just talked to a young guy who bought a 1947 Ford that had been just "updated for reliability" with duel master cylinder & front  disk brakes. He was having rear problems with the rear drums getting hot and a spongy petal. He took the car in to a shop and they discovered  leaky flares, wrong and poorly installed parts,

 

Poor workmanship isn't restricted to people who modify cars...

[SC38dls]

Joe by “custom” I meant changing the body shape/design not the drive train. I should have been more specific. 

Bernie - I never wanted to be an English teacher but I guess it is obvious I would not have been a very good one. Thank goodness the computer world I have been successful in only required ones, zeros and being able to make that do what customers wanted. 

Dave S

Edited September 2, 2018 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

54 minutes ago, John348 said:

 Everyone feels they need disc brakes, if they only drove the car while keeping a safe distance it would not be a concern.

 

Here in the DC metro area, If I kept a "safe distance", I'd be driving backwards.  Leave more than about 3/4 of a car length in front of you and someone forces their way in, requiring you to slam on the brakes.  Doesn't matter how much "safe distance" you leave.

 

[John348]

1 hour ago, joe_padavano said:

 

Poor workmanship isn't restricted to people who modify cars...

This is very true, but it would have taken much less effort and cost way less to get the original brakes working properly on that 47 Ford. Seems like everyone just buys the sales pitch when they are told it will be more reliable, only reinforced by lame TV shows.

Edited September 2, 2018 by John348 (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

2 hours ago, SC38DLS said:

Bernie - I never wanted to be an English teacher but I guess it is obvious I would not have been a very good one. Thank goodness the computer world I have been successful in only required ones, zeros and being able to make that do what customers wanted. 

 

Like Joe, I needed to be more specific. When it comes to modifying an old car I have observed, for a long time, that people restoring cars think a "hot rodder" taking some rusted old body to make their car is OK, anything we wouldn't want is fine for "them".

[SC38dls]

When you take part of a statement you can make it sound any way you want to slant it. My point that you obviously missed is if you own it you have the right to do anything you want with it. A classic can be rat rodded or painted with neon paint and that is perfectly ok. It’s none of your business or mine. You and I may or may not like it but that’s just too bad for you or me. The owner is the only one that has a say in what happens to that car. Again as long as it doesn’t put anyone else in danger. If you don’t understand that so what. My whole statement was saying that so take it any way you want but don’t try to make it say something it doesn’t by taking a small part of it. 

Dave S 

[cxgvd]

Why bother modifying a car at all.  For instance, go to your local Ford dealer, buy a new Mustang, it will be better in every way to anything Ford built in their past and better than anything you could invent yourself.  I was at a car show yesterday and there were newer cars on display being shown and talked about.  I think if you want to do the work yourself and enjoy time in the workshop that is great.

 

Gary

[John348]

Well I am going to go to a local show today against my better judgement........ I know it will have it's fair share of brand new cars....... we shall see

later guys

[joe_padavano]

2 hours ago, cxgvd said:

Why bother modifying a car at all. 

 

Because there is satisfaction in building something yourself.  People have different skills and tastes. I know many people who only want to write checks. Nothing wrong with that. Me, I prefer to work with my hands to craft something that reflects my personal tastes and skills. Neither approach is better or worse, just two different ends of the auto hobby spectrum. 

 

Why can't we all just get along?

[edinmass]

I don’t think anyone has a problem with how anyone enjoys he hobby. It’s just understanding what your getting yourself into before you pull the trigger.  Too many new people get burned buying a turd.......of any type. It’s not good for the hobby when we lose a new guy right away. Somewhere else on this site a guy with a 1939 Packard V-12 is frustrated he keeps breaking down. It the car was properly and TOTALLY serviced correctly, it would have never happened. Also, a V-12Packard is NOT a beginner car. He thinks it’s not reliable, what he doesn’t understand it is just his car that is not reliable. And he’s learning the hard way you don’t fix or sort pre war V-12 car for little or no dollars. I would have told him 20 to 60 grand depending on the car ina shop that knows wheat they are doing.

[28 Chrysler]

My point about the 1947 Ford  was the poorly done modifications did not make it more reliable or safer. 

I have corrected drive lines, steering & suspension problems, wiring and fuel hazards. Many of these could have been as bad as a poor brake job.

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

I don’t think anyone has a problem with how anyone enjoys he hobby.

 

When someone says "why bother modifying a car at all", that implies a problem with those who chose to modify. (Yeah, I realize this is AACA and not Street Rodder, but there are less confrontational ways to inform people of that)

 

I agree with you that there are a LOT of hacks out there who have no clue as to what they are doing and end up ruining cars. Those hacks aren't just building modified cars - they are also screwing up otherwise stock vehicles with their ignorance and arrogance. There are even more uninformed buyers who buy this crap and they get disillusioned when they have to spend more than the purchase price to make it right. I have to be honest, though.  I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who write checks without learning about the vehicle they are buying first, then continue to follow bad advice and throw good money after bad.

Edited September 3, 2018 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

When you can see 70 in the not so far future there isn't any time to worry about what others do or don't do with their vehicles. If I finish some of my projects or leave behind a pile of  parts so what? 

 

Bob

[joe_padavano]

2 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

When you can see 70 in the not so far future there isn't any time to worry about what others do or don't do with their vehicles. If I finish some of my projects or leave behind a pile of  parts so what? 

 

Bob

 

I figure I have to live to be 150 to finish all the projects I currently have. ?

[60FlatTop]

Sometimes things aren't just "black and white" or "yesterday and today", metaphorically speaking.

 

Yesterday

 

Today

[padgett]

First 70 is the new 50.

Second all of my cars have disk brakes (only the Judge has rear drums). All have Handsfree, AC, radial tires (usually a size larger than stock), at least 7" wide wheels. Guess Judge would be a resto-mod since have added 4 pinion posi, disks in the front, Olds 442 W30 suspension, and 15x8 Firebird Snowflakes. Of course since done in the '80s, the term didn't exist.

 

Don't think I have ever had a stock car, at least not for long.

 

Have my eye on a sporty thingie convertible, two seat, 4 whl disks, DOHC 4, 5 speed, & AC. Had a FIAT 124 Spyder I really liked and this is old enough for antique car insurance.