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63 Riv AC flush and vacuum


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14 hours ago, TexRiv_63 said:

After being scared of A/C work forever and always paying a shop to do it I finally decided to do it myself as you have. I recently also bought all the tools with the exception of the flush gun. Please post some photos of the flush process when you get to it and let us know how the CoolPro works.

Sir, I read your post you put up in 08 regarding your installation of your AC aftermarket solution for your Riv. I will say you did a through job installing the system. Your post is well written so the process of installation was easy to understand. Were I not so invested in keeping what I have I believe I would have opted for an aftermarket AC system like yours.

My system blows ac air, but not cool enough. The defroster and heater both work great. I’ve had the bell arm replaced in the HVAC control unit, NEWA6 Compressor, drier, rebuilt STV, ( 2 STV’s rebuilt) new vacuum hoses (color coded), replaced vacuum diaphrams 3&4 under the heaterbox with one single diaphram double ported and T’d back to proper (yellow ) vacuum switch, new vacuum control switch, new ac hose, and a couple hundred bucks in R12. The $ I’ve spent in shop labor is more than I want to say. I’ve even cobbled up the control vacuum switch panel  covers so the front and back switch covers can be mounted. You are right, it is a pile of mess under the hood for the 63AC system. 

Ill keep you advised with pictures as I go forward. I believe cleaning the system by flushing with CoolPro and vacuuming the system overnight with a 6CFM Robinair ( used) vacuum should get the system clean and DRY. Dry hydrogen gas is suppose to do a good job drying everything out. For now, I’m sticking with Cool Pro. The last step of charging the system with R12 will be done by a little shop 60 miles north of me in Pennsylvania. The shop will pull a second vacuum to check for leaks. I’ll ask the shop for results of the gas test they do BEFORE they put the gas in the system. Hopefully, they will test the gas with a refrigerant tester.

im confident, but not overly confident,  these last steps in AC refurbishing will bring in the cold air I want. Thank you for your first class participation in the project.

RedRivieraBob

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14 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

image.png.5b3fd6f8a8c6616b1cc6c173965e1191.png

 

"It is a man in a building in the woods. He just released some gas."

"Should we be downwind or upwind?"

"We aren't ready for this! Let's get out of the woods!"

 

Bernie, but what does a bear do in the woods?

RED Riviera Bob

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On 8/31/2018 at 9:23 AM, JZRIV said:

So it sounds like someone mixed 134 and 12. Is the system working now? I am curious how you know the mix is 22/78??

 

System could probably be evacuated and re-charged with R12 without a flush and be OK......but there is some risk involved in that. At this point it may be best to go ahead and flush to remove oil from the individual components through flushing process and start over. You only want to do this ONCE.

A competent shop will know the process to flush. This is not a job you can do yourself because a special flushing gun and flushing agent is required. I'm not an expert but I would want to disconnect and flush the evap, condenser, muffler, and lines separately so it doesn't matter what order. Then remove and drain all oil out of the compressor/flush.

After everything is cleaned, reinstalled with correct amount of oil, new orings on all joints, and new receiver dryer, a vacuum is pulled on the system for several hours then the system is left sit to see how long it holds a vacuum which determines if there are leaks. If no leaks then the system is charged and the vacuum is replaced by refrigerant thereby not allowing any contaminated/moisture laden air to enter.

 

On 9/1/2018 at 10:56 PM, Red Riviera Bob said:

Sir, thank you for all your help. Denatured alcohol could work, but I’m using CoolPro to flush.

thank you

Red Riviera Bob

You are right on point with everything you write about the process. I’m reviewing what folks have contributed along with reading and re-reading the service manual. I want to have all my supplies, tools, and replacement components in one place before I start. 

‘Thanks again.

Bob Burnopp

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Bob, 

Hopefully you'll get this taken care of in time to take advantage of a working a/c system before the seasons change and you'll just need you heater and defroster.  ?

Ed

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12 hours ago, RivNut said:

Bob, 

Hopefully you'll get this taken care of in time to take advantage of a working a/c system before the seasons change and you'll just need you heater and defroster.  ?

Ed

Ed, getting the evaporator and expansion valve in and out will be a giant step. Any tips you have on getting the evaporator out without having to tear apart the dash would be most helpful.

RRB

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On 9/3/2018 at 5:20 PM, TexRiv_63 said:

After being scared of A/C work forever and always paying a shop to do it I finally decided to do it myself as you have. I recently also bought all the tools with the exception of the flush gun. Please post some photos of the flush process when you get to it and let us know how the CoolPro works.

TexRiv63, I’m sending out 3 hose sections to get rebuilt. I have a new drier and expansion valve on order for replacement.

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C706DBD2-A08A-421B-B9AB-6F08359E3DC3.jpeg

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59 minutes ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

Ed, getting the evaporator and expansion valve in and out will be a giant step. Any tips you have on getting the evaporator out without having to tear apart the dash would be most helpful.

RRB

It's been a while since I pulled an evaporator, but I think that removal of the knee pad and the glove box liner should be all you need to get out of the way. 

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3 hours ago, RivNut said:

It's been a while since I pulled an evaporator, but I think that removal of the knee pad and the glove box liner should be all you need to get out of the way. 

Ed, that is a start. Thank you.

Red Riviera Bob

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On 9/4/2018 at 8:39 AM, Red Riviera Bob said:

Sir, I read your post you put up in 08 regarding your installation of your AC aftermarket solution for your Riv. I will say you did a through job installing the system. Your post is well written so the process of installation was easy to understand. Were I not so invested in keeping what I have I believe I would have opted for an aftermarket AC system like yours.

My system blows ac air, but not cool enough. The defroster and heater both work great. I’ve had the bell arm replaced in the HVAC control unit, NEWA6 Compressor, drier, rebuilt STV, ( 2 STV’s rebuilt) new vacuum hoses (color coded), replaced vacuum diaphrams 3&4 under the heaterbox with one single diaphram double ported and T’d back to proper (yellow ) vacuum switch, new vacuum control switch, new ac hose, and a couple hundred bucks in R12. The $ I’ve spent in shop labor is more than I want to say. I’ve even cobbled up the control vacuum switch panel  covers so the front and back switch covers can be mounted. You are right, it is a pile of mess under the hood for the 63AC system. 

Ill keep you advised with pictures as I go forward. I believe cleaning the system by flushing with CoolPro and vacuuming the system overnight with a 6CFM Robinair ( used) vacuum should get the system clean and DRY. Dry hydrogen gas is suppose to do a good job drying everything out. For now, I’m sticking with Cool Pro. The last step of charging the system with R12 will be done by a little shop 60 miles north of me in Pennsylvania. The shop will pull a second vacuum to check for leaks. I’ll ask the shop for results of the gas test they do BEFORE they put the gas in the system. Hopefully, they will test the gas with a refrigerant tester.

im confident, but not overly confident,  these last steps in AC refurbishing will bring in the cold air I want. Thank you for your first class participation in the project.

RedRivieraBob

 

No, not dry hydrogen gas, dry nitrogen.

 

The hydrogen comment was a typo.

 

After vacuuming the system for many hours overnight, break the vacuum with some R-12 before disconnecting your A/C gauges and driving up to your new A/C guy.

 

Pulling a second vacuum will only find a really large leak.

 

Put UV dye in the A/C oil to help you find any leaks with a black light.

 

 

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On 9/6/2018 at 11:08 PM, Jim Cannon said:

 

No, not dry hydrogen gas, dry nitrogen.

 

The hydrogen comment was a typo.

 

After vacuuming the system for many hours overnight, break the vacuum with some R-12 before disconnecting your A/C gauges and driving up to your new A/C guy.

 

Pulling a second vacuum will only find a really large leak.

 

Put UV dye in the A/C oil to help you find any leaks with a black light.

 

 

Jim, thank you for the heads up on the hydrogen and nitrogen. Probably a couple electrons, protons difference between the hydrogen and nitrogen.

The tip on adding in R12 BEFORE I break the vacuum is appreciated. I’ll have the Compressor mounted, connected and charged with 10.5oz if mineral oil. There are instructions for installing the STV in the manual I’ll follow step by step. I’ll get a pic of me under the dash making my way to the thermostatic expansion valve.

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1 hour ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

Jim, thank you for the heads up on the hydrogen and nitrogen. Probably a couple electrons, protons difference between the hydrogen and nitrogen.

 

Hydrogen has an atomic number of 1 so there is one electron in the first shell and one proton in the nucleus.   Nitrogen has an atomic number of 7 so there are two electrons in the first shell and five in the second shell and seven protons in the nucleus.  

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8 hours ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

Jim, thank you for the heads up on the hydrogen and nitrogen. Probably a couple electrons, protons difference between the hydrogen and nitrogen.

The tip on adding in R12 BEFORE I break the vacuum is appreciated. I’ll have the Compressor mounted, connected and charged with 10.5oz if mineral oil. There are instructions for installing the STV in the manual I’ll follow step by step. I’ll get a pic of me under the dash making my way to the thermostatic expansion valve.

 

You USE the R-12 to break the vacuum after running the vacuum pump overnight.

 

 

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On 8/31/2018 at 10:41 PM, KongaMan said:

I'm confused.  If the system was disassembled, there was a point at which it had no refrigerant at all.  So, how did you end up with a mixture of R12 and R134a?

Mr. Konga Man, good question. If the system was opened by having the compressor and drier changed out and ALL refrigerant was removed one way or the other the next to the last monkey added 134a instead of R12. The next to last monkey could have very well used an adapter to my schrader valve and knowingly put in 134a for diagnostics. The last shop started to evacuate the system and their gas analyzer printed out a tape showing what was in the system and what percentage. I had to drive 120 miles round trip to evacuate the gas. 

The car is in my garage with the evaporator, loose, uncovered, and hoses loose ready to be flushed. I hope it goes back easier than it came down. 

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On 9/9/2018 at 10:32 PM, Jim Cannon said:

 

You USE the R-12 to break the vacuum after running the vacuum pump overnight.

 

 

Jim, if I understand correctly, with a vacuum on the system I interrupt the vacuum by loading an aerosol can of refrigerant via the low side. The gauges have a port in the middle ( yellow hose)I can add the refrigerant. Do I have it right?  At what juncture do I put in the dye?

RRB

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On 9/9/2018 at 3:17 PM, RivNut said:

Hydrogen has an atomic number of 1 so there is one electron in the first shell and one proton in the nucleus.   Nitrogen has an atomic number of 7 so there are two electrons in the first shell and five in the second shell and seven protons in the nucleus.  

Ed, how about the photons? You know atom bombs, hydrogen bombs, and photon torpedoes?

RRB

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Budding chemists beware. Here is a chemical that was actually part of the script for the first Godzilla movie. http://mentalfloss.com/article/556551/michigan-rock-hunter-discovers-glowing-yooperlites-lake-superior-beach

 

In my studies of gases I have learned to quickly recognize those which are ert and those which are inert. I am also learning about computers and have studied both analog AND monolog points.

 

Bernie

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9 hours ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

Mr. Konga Man, good question. If the system was opened by having the compressor and drier changed out and ALL refrigerant was removed one way or the other the next to the last monkey added 134a instead of R12. The next to last monkey could have very well used an adapter to my schrader valve and knowingly put in 134a for diagnostics. The last shop started to evacuate the system and their gas analyzer printed out a tape showing what was in the system and what percentage. 

 

Without any evidence, we're all guessing here, but I'd still consider the possibility that the charge the last shop analyzed goes back to the first shop and their intentional addition of 134a.  Follow with me here:

- First shop adds 134a to R12, saying that they are compatible.

- Second shop evacuates system, storing the old gas in a containment vessel.  After reassembling and evacuating the system, they fill it with the gas they previously removed on the assumption (i.e. they didn't check) that it was pure R12.

- No idea what the third shop did.

- Last shop tests the gas and discovers the R12/134a mixture.

 

I don't know that it's likely that two shops would intentionally introduce 134a into an R12 system.  One idiot (i.e. the first shop) is bad enough; two is a little suspect.  You might want to check for receipt from the second shop to see how much R12 you were charged for.

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RRB,

 

Here's another chemical compound that you need to be aware of:  Di-hydrogen Monoxide

 

Di-hydrogen monoxide:

  • it is the major component of acid rain.
  • can cause death if ingested 
  • contributes to the "greenhouse effect".
  • may cause severe burns.
  • contributes to the erosion of our natural landscape.
  • accelerates corrosion and rusting of many metals.
  • may cause electrical failures
  • causes decreased effectiveness of automobile brakes.
  • has been found in excised tumors of terminal cancer patients.

Despite the danger, dihydrogen monoxide is often used:

  • as an industrial solvent and coolant.
  • in nuclear power plants.
  • in the production of styrofoam.
  • as a fire retardant.
  • in many forms of cruel animal research.
  • in the distribution of pesticides. even after washing, produce remains contaminated by this chemical.
  • as an additive in certain "junk-foods" and other food products.

Just make sure that you take caution when handling it.  Better safe than sorry.

 

Ed

 

 

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20 hours ago, KongaMan said:

 

Without any evidence, we're all guessing here, but I'd still consider the possibility that the charge the last shop analyzed goes back to the first shop and their intentional addition of 134a.  Follow with me here:

- First shop adds 134a to R12, saying that they are compatible.

- Second shop evacuates system, storing the old gas in a containment vessel.  After reassembling and evacuating the system, they fill it with the gas they previously removed on the assumption (i.e. they didn't check) that it was pure R12.

- No idea what the third shop did.

- Last shop tests the gas and discovers the R12/134a mixture.

 

I don't know that it's likely that two shops would intentionally introduce 134a into an R12 system.  One idiot (i.e. the first shop) is bad enough; two is a little suspect.  You might want to check for receipt from the second shop to see how much R12 you were charged for.

Mr Konga. Man, Thank you for your attention and assistance. I thought I wrote in several posts before I gave the shop that installed the new compressor, drier, and STV a 30 gallon tank of R12 I got from a friend who is a 40+ year Master Mechanic. There was no charge for the R12 from this shop that made the installation. The uninformed individual lacking good judgement was me that first allowed the 134a into the system with the R12. The second shop or installation shop that charged me a pile of money for labor was suppose to use the R12 I gave them in the 30 gallon tank. I got the tank back, but failed to weight the canister to determine how much they used. 

Mr Konga Man, I googled the chemical formula for R12 and found this product on eBay advertised as "the real deal". TelRiv indicated the only way you can determine what your receiving in a container of refrigerant is to test the stuff with a refrigerant tester. 

Screen Shot 2018-09-12 at 12.18.10 PM.png

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On 9/11/2018 at 10:07 AM, 60FlatTop said:

Budding chemists beware. Here is a chemical that was actually part of the script for the first Godzilla movie. http://mentalfloss.com/article/556551/michigan-rock-hunter-discovers-glowing-yooperlites-lake-superior-beach

 

In my studies of gases I have learned to quickly recognize those which are ert and those which are inert. I am also learning about computers and have studied both analog AND monolog points.

 

Bernie

Bernie, are the monolog points ( these are the ones you set with a match book cover ?) the ones that go next to the condenser ? I mean the condenser under the distributor cap, not the one up the radiator.  ?

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16 hours ago, RivNut said:

RRB,

 

Here's another chemical compound that you need to be aware of:  Di-hydrogen Monoxide

 

Di-hydrogen monoxide:

  • it is the major component of acid rain.
  • can cause death if ingested 
  • contributes to the "greenhouse effect".
  • may cause severe burns.
  • contributes to the erosion of our natural landscape.
  • accelerates corrosion and rusting of many metals.
  • may cause electrical failures
  • causes decreased effectiveness of automobile brakes.
  • has been found in excised tumors of terminal cancer patients.

Despite the danger, dihydrogen monoxide is often used:

  • as an industrial solvent and coolant.
  • in nuclear power plants.
  • in the production of styrofoam.
  • as a fire retardant.
  • in many forms of cruel animal research.
  • in the distribution of pesticides. even after washing, produce remains contaminated by this chemical.
  • as an additive in certain "junk-foods" and other food products.

Just make sure that you take caution when handling it.  Better safe than sorry.

 

Ed

 

 

Ed, thank you for the heads up on this one. A lot of stuff Ive been around like asbestos and the like and so far no malady from that stuff. I worked in a Refractory plant while attending University of Maryland Baltimore County ( go Retrievers ) and there were many chemicals added to the mix to press the brick.

Im using Cool Pro to flush out the lines I have not rebuilt. ill tell you getting the evaporator out was annoying, but I persisted.

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19 minutes ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

I thought I wrote in several posts before I gave the shop that installed the new compressor, drier, and STV a 30 gallon tank of R12 I got from a friend who is a 40+ year Master Mechanic. There was no charge for the R12 from this shop that made the installation. The uninformed individual lacking good judgement was me that first allowed the 134a into the system with the R12. The second shop or installation shop that charged me a pile of money for labor was suppose to use the R12 I gave them in the 30 gallon tank. I got the tank back, but failed to weight the canister to determine how much they used.

 

It's kind of water under the bridge at this point, but there's no assurance that shop 2 didn't use reclaimed gas for the initial charge and top it off from your tank.  Mind you, there's nothing wrong with doing that.  The problem is that such a strategy rests on faith rather than verification (i.e. they're assuming you started with a charge of pure R12).  The mistake would be in not verifying that prior to reusing the gas.

 

19 minutes ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

Mr Konga Man, I googled the chemical formula for R12 and found this product on eBay advertised as "the real deal". TelRiv indicated the only way you can determine what your receiving in a container of refrigerant is to test the stuff with a refrigerant tester.

 

While true in a literal sense, that may not be practical.  If you're using gas that's reclaimed or from a dubious source, then yeah.  If you've got cans of clearly labeled refrigerant, then the only reason to test it is if you suspect fraud.  That might not be completely baseless if you're buying a tank fro ma junkyard or something from eBay described as "from Mexico" or the like, but it might be overly paranoid for products purchased through normal commercial channels.  Consider the stuff in your picture.  It's labeled "dichlorodiflouromethane".  That's R12.  Do you need to test that?  I dunno.  Do you think you're being scammed?

 

OTOH, consider a product like Freeze 12.  Do you need to test that that?  Consider that you already know it's not R12.  It was never labeled as such, it was never represented as such, and there's no reason to ever think that you might be getting R12.  You aren't.  Do you know (or care) what you are getting?  Maybe -- but what are you going to do with that info?  What you're relying on there is the veracity of the marketing claims ("works with", "substitute for", etc.).  You know you're rolling the dice before you ever puncture the can.  If you want R12, you don't want that stuff.  You don't need to test it to know that.

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2 hours ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

Ed, thank you for the heads up on this one. A lot of stuff Ive been around like asbestos and the like and so far no malady from that stuff. I worked in a Refractory plant while attending University of Maryland Baltimore County ( go Retrievers ) and there were many chemicals added to the mix to press the brick.

Im using Cool Pro to flush out the lines I have not rebuilt. ill tell you getting the evaporator out was annoying, but I persisted.

RRB,

 

Write out di-hydrgen monoxide in its chemical formula.  Two hydrogen molecules, one oxygen molecule:  H2O The culprit is water.

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On 9/11/2018 at 2:32 AM, Red Riviera Bob said:

Jim, if I understand correctly, with a vacuum on the system I interrupt the vacuum by loading an aerosol can of refrigerant via the low side. The gauges have a port in the middle ( yellow hose)I can add the refrigerant. Do I have it right?  At what juncture do I put in the dye?

RRB

 

Yes.  When you are done pulling a vacuum on the system for a really long time (overnight, 24 hours, etc. -- a long time) you close both manifold valves on the gauge set, turn the vacuum pump off, disconnect the pump and you hook up a can of R12 to the center line (where the pump was connected).  You loosen the center line attachment a little bit at the gauge set manifold to flush the air out with a little R-12, then you tighten it back up.  Open one valve on the gauge set to let R-12 flow into the vacuumed out system until the pressure on the low pressure gauge is a few PSI above zero.  Then close all of the valves and remove the hoses from the A/C system and put caps on the ports.  In this condition, you can drive to the A/C shop for final charge with R-12.

 

 

Edited by Jim Cannon (see edit history)
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On 9/1/2018 at 10:42 AM, RivNut said:

Bob is going to become our "go to" a/c specialist.  He'll have spent enough money to have earned a master certification by the time he's got cold air.  My question for his mechanic who said that R12 and 134a could be mixed is this - "Why does each different refrigerant require a specific fitting on the hose? When you change fittings to put one or the other into the system, doesn't  t the old gas escape?"

Ed, this being my third season trying to get cold air the earlier efforts of how gases were added escapes me. Although I have spent a measurable amount of money, as opposed to a significant amount, it has been a learning experience. I wanted to replace parts as needed and I’ve always liked having spares for back up. The tools have not been that much money. Labor and wasted gases have been a pinch, but I can stand the pain of lost money. The pay off will be great when I get this ac back together and cold air, just in time for Thanksgiving!

RRB

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On 9/1/2018 at 10:42 AM, RivNut said:

Bob is going to become our "go to" a/c specialist.  He'll have spent enough money to have earned a master certification by the time he's got cold air.  My question for his mechanic who said that R12 and 134a could be mixed is this - "Why does each different refrigerant require a specific fitting on the hose? When you change fittings to put one or the other into the system, doesn't  t the old gas escape?"

Ed, I don’t know.

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16 hours ago, Zimm63 said:

When you get all this figured out, you can come down and help with mine.

 

Zim, don’t know if it will throw cold air when it is finished being reassembled. What I can say it is somewhat tedious because of reach and tight space fasteners that have to come out. IF, there is a correct tool for the Hard to reach stuff it m i g h t be easier. My present experience lends to alternative decisions regarding stock configuration, 134a, STV replacement, and/or aftermarket ac solution. Wasted $ on R12, pirate labor, and parts will make anyone pause and attempt to measure satisfaction, functional utility, And expense before doing this job a second time. It is a shame I did not have more and better information before I started the restoration I could have saved time and a couple bucks. Sure, I’ll lend a hand; you are not too far away.

RRB

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23 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

That's a pretty steady picture for a shot like that.

 

I'm trying to figure out how the tilt wheel ever got in the position its in. Had to be when you took the dash pad off.

 

?

 

 

Bernie, so I could have taken off the passenger side front fender and had better access? Never crossed my mind. 

In the past some of the “ easier” methods were more difficult than removing the “ original “ part the hard way.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

Bernie, so I could have taken off the passenger side front fender and had better access?

 

Since I accidentally put myself in a position to R&R my right front fender, maybe I should consider making my AC work.

Its just that global warming is taking so long....

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Gents, Moving toward a solution I replaced thermostatic expansion valve, evaporator with new, had all the hoses rebuilt with triple barrier walls for 134a, had the another STV rebuilt, drained the compressor many times with mineral oil until the oil drained clear, replaced mineral oil ( 314ml ) in compressor. Put in a new drier. Flushed all the new lines and evaporator, flushed the condenser with CoolPro. I might say pulling the evaporator cabinet and putting the evaporator cabinet back and connecting hoses became almost second nature after the 16 hours or so. Nonetheless, no surprise when the system didn't hold a vacuum. 

Ill revisit the  project and work on finding and fixing the leaks. The joints under the dash were quite difficult to reach and tighten. I'll want to spend another 2-3 days finding the leaks, then another 2-3 days sealing the leaks. I''ll probably have this AC ready for next season, maybe.

Red Riviera Bob

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Use new green o-rings on every connection every time.  They are cheap.  Lubricate them lightly with a drop or two of mineral oil as you assemble, to not pinch or tear an o-ring.

 

If you have not done so already, put some UV dye into the mineral oil. It will help you find any leaks more easily in the future, after you charge the system and run it (won't help now).

 

Connect both hoses from your manifold gauge set to their corresponding high- and low-pressure taps on the A/C system, and the vacuum pump to the center hose..  Do not leave one hose off of the A/C ports.

 

 

 

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