trickydicky43richard

39 Chrysler Brakes all new, NO PEDAL?? and Short car history!!

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Hi all you Brake Gurus.

My 39 Royal has recently had all Wheel cylinders and Master cylinder sleeved with St Steel, with new Hydraulic hoses too. BUT we cant get a pedal??

Brake Cyl push rod is adjusted up and Brake shoes just touching drums. Been bled three times where should I first go next in steps to eliminate problem.?

Rich

Edited by trickydicky43richard
further explanation (see edit history)

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Master cylinder piston returning 100%? Are the rubber M/cyl cups blocking the return holes?

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G'day from Oz,

Cupla things....Thanks Yah'all for your interest .This started when I had the Master cylinder develop a leak, I found a "NOS ??"a re sleeved master Cylinder and had my mechanic mate fit it and bleed the brakes with a proper bleeding kit.

 

Got slightly spongy pedal but it seemed to take up a long way down, mechanic re bled system, adjusted master cylinder push rod which gave higher pedal but to me still felt slightly spongy!

So just a while ago after he left I fiercely pumped up brakes to a good'ish  pedal and pushed like "H*ll and was able to very slowly get pedal to almost the floor? Now it wont pump up very well at all *%#@^!!!........

Now!............ I have checked under car, so far no visible leaks but I thought maybe the new hydraulic hose/s is, are swelling. They came from Argentina so maybe of marginal quality and swelling under pressure?? or maybe the re-sleeved Master Cyl is under question or push rod adjustment blocking return holes. I'm so bushed by all this and sadly looking at big dollars heading my way in a process of elimination.... HELP!!

 

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Are you bleeding furthest first, closest to master cylinder last?

 

Are you letting the pedal up with the bleed nipple open? If your drain hose goes down from the nipple, this can let air back in. You can let the pedal up with the nipple open if you ensure the drain hose always goes UP from the nipple, so there is always fluid at the nipple, not air.

 

Are you bleeding with slow deliberate strokes on the pedal? It should take say three or four seconds to push it down and similar to let it up.

 

With my 1930 Dodge Brothers Eight, no more than 5 pedal strokes between m/c refills.

 

Before attempting another bleed, ensure the brakes are in adjustment, at both upper adjuster and anchor at bottom.

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)
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14 hours ago, trickydicky43richard said:

So just a while ago after he left I fiercely pumped up brakes to a good'ish  pedal and pushed like "H*ll and was able to very slowly get pedal to almost the floor? Now it wont pump up very well at all *%#@^!!!........

 

Recap: So you DID have a pedal (albeit low) and then you pushed REAL HARD, and the pedal then (slowly?) fell to the floor? (with no leaks seen under the car) 

 

If the above conditions are true then the primary cup in the master cylinder is bad (leaking internally) and allowing the MC piston the pass through the fluid and not compress it. 

Remove and disassemble the master cylinder and you will likely find the cup to be cut or torn. Replace the rubber parts in the master cylinder. 

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If you are using silicone fluid (it's all i use in my old cars) fast pumping will froth it up.  You will need to let it sit to settle the bubbles out and press slow even strokes.  I just did the brakes on my 40 ford and though it didn't seem like we were getting a pedal,  (right to the floor each time) bleeding (the old fashion way, without the bleeder vac tool) got air out of the system and we finally got a nice pedal.  Be sure the master was thoroughly bench bled as well.  Again if you use silicone fluid,  it's easy to foam it up and not bleed properly.   Good thing with silicone,  is if you used it,  you will never need to touch the system again. 

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Thanks everybody I'm sucking in all your advice.... I think I will have to go back to square one I.E and one by one redo Master Cyl checking for faulty internals, check all wheel cyls for leaks, hydraulic hoses for swelling,  push rod adjustment etc.

R

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8 hours ago, trickydicky43richard said:

I think I will have to go back to square one I

Including checking the brake adjustment at each wheel. You can never get a pedal if the shoes don't touch the drum somewhere.

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40 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said:

Including checking the brake adjustment at each wheel. You can never get a pedal if the shoes don't touch the drum somewhere.

 

Yes, brake shoe adjustment is paramount with these brakes, absolutely hopeless if you haven't gone through the correct procedure to set the clearances. Dont know how many times I've seen postings starting with "cant get a pedal".

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4 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Including checking the brake adjustment at each wheel. You can never get a pedal if the shoes don't touch the drum somewhere.

Actually since you mentioned it,  this very likely might be the problem if not one of them.  I did a full brake job on a 49 Chevy truck and could only get a pedal if I pumped it,  but as soon as you let up,  you had to pump it again and it would get a pedal, until you let up.  I figured out that even though I adjusted the shoes when I put it together they must not have seated so the quick pumps,  pushed them all the way out but when you let up it took a few full pumps to push them all the way back out.  Took a few minutes to figure that one out. but with all the pumping it did get them all squared in so they could be properly adjusted.  Went back and bled the system a final time and had a great pedal after that. 

Good luck. 

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Key piece of info - it won't hold a pedal even after pumping it up. That means that fluid is leaking past a piston rubber cup somewhere in the system.   Or, if the master cylinder was "sleeved" and the sleeve is not properly sealing to the cylinder bore and fluid is leaking past the inboard end.  This can sometimes happen when sleeves are glued in rather than burnished in.

 

Paul

Edited by PFitz (see edit history)
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I had a sleeved wheel cylinder that leaked between the new sleeve and cylinder.... not too common.

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what I do after bleeding master and end up where you are  take a fitting that fits  your master cylinder take piece of flared line about 3'' long  that is same size as your brake line flatten the line about 1''after the fitting then double the flattened piece over on itself using a hammer or vice then screw it into master.now see how hard pedal is if feels good pump a coupe of times if stays firm then you need to look at rest of system.if pedal does not hold than this will indicate the master is leaking internally.easy to check before tying up your friends hoist to say nothing of getting car there.good luck if you have an oxy ac set I keep a few fitting where I have welded the fitting closed alone with brass.forgot to mention as not everyone has a set

Edited by 54vicky
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Well..., Well !!....(as the famous Roy Clarke, guitarist would sometimes quip !) I sent the old girl off to my newly discovered nearby old timer bush mechanic, a knowledgeable guy on vintage Mopar cars.

He zeroed in on brake shoe adjustment as his first priority and found that they were quite out of whack!

He did his best to get them right without the Mopar special tool required to get the clearance and brake shoe heel and toe right.

Hooray I have pedal, like something else not as hard as I would like but now some 100% improvement and car now stops pretty good!

Thanks to all for all your input !

R

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Here is a pic, you will note the Aussie assembled RHD cars shared a plain straight bumper as per Dodge, DeSoto etc, probably made here to increase local content and a reduce Government tariff charges.

You will also note the Clergy bumper badge, this car was bought new by a gambling Catholic Priest after a big win. He had to sell it 12 months after a big loss. Car was bought then by a small town country business who owned a Funeral Parlor, Taxi Business and a Panel shop! Car saw action in all three places, as a Taxi it serviced a local Army base transferring WW2 American troops to and from the local Capital city, Brisbane.

In about 1985 the car was retired and given a body off refresh by the Panel shop, however all the window winding and door mechanisms were all shot due to taxi service which I repaired with great difficulty shortly after purchase. 

I bought the car after being in their ownership for some 75 years and still going strong.

IMG_7703 (4).JPG

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What a great looking car! Glad they figured out the brakes. Drive and enjoy it.?

 

You mean Roy Clark? Of Hee Haw fame. A fellow Virginian by birth.?

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Drive it and wear in the shoes to the drums.

As they shoes wear the pedal will drop..

Re-adjust the 8 brake shoes and the brake pedal will get higher and firmer as the shoes wear and fit to the drums 100%.

Slow mans way of arc fitting the shoes to the drums.

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