poured bearings

[broker-len]

looking for a shop that can pour babbit and line bore on early 30s motors

[C Carl]

Always a good idea to include location, for obvious reasons.  -  Carl 

[wayne sheldon]

I know a fellow in Auburn Califunny that has done everything from a Caterpillar to a Stutz. He is good.

However, being on a world wide web? Your location is also very important.

Let me know if the Gold Country Sierra works for you.

[broker-len]

the debate about detergent oil in old motors has been going on,,,,,I am in south jersey,,,,shop near me did the bearings,,,,their position is --------------------NEVER------------use detergent oil with pored bearings,,,,wanted some one else to ask

[PFitz]

I guess that shop hasn't heard that old shade-tree mechanic's rumor about don't use detergent oils in old engines was debunked about 40 years ago ? So how does your shop  account for the millions of trouble-free miles using detergent oils with poured babbitt that has happened in those decades since ?

 

Try calling Reeve Enterprises in Cazenovia NY  315-655-8812. The shop owner is not just a life long engine rebuilder, he's a recently retired professor of Machine Technology at SUNY Morrisville.  It's three generations  with a total of at least 80 years experience and lots of college degrees between them.  They do all the machining, balancing, and poured babbitt - including into aluminum rods as original, .... that some shops say can't be done - all in house. The bulk of their work is antique auto, but they also stationary, commercial, race, and marine. Everything but aircraft.  

 

Paul

Edited August 9, 2018 by PFitz (see edit history)

[broker-len]

Paul--thanks  do you have the owner's name ?------------I will call and put this to bed

[PFitz]

6 minutes ago, broker-len said:

Paul--thanks  do you have the owner's name ?------------I will call and put this to bed

  Owner Mike Reeve.

 

His son Patrick is most likely to answer the shop phone during working hours. He's also a good one to ask because he's extremely experienced and knowledgeable about all phases of rebuilding antique engines, too.

 

Paul

[broker-len]

spoke with some one there----------------very nice----------they put modern oil in all their old cars-------------------thank you for the info

[herm111]

4 hours ago, broker-len said:

the debate about detergent oil in old motors has been going on,,,,,I am in south jersey,,,,shop near me did the bearings,,,,their position is --------------------NEVER------------use detergent oil with pored bearings,,,,wanted some one else to ask

We have poured bearings everyday for 54 years, all run on Detergent oil. Who every told you that is blaming oil for his bad workmanship, to cover his butt. In 54 years, we have Never had a bad bearing, or any bearing fail!

 

1. Aluminum Mains, and Rods out of a Franklin Auto.

 

2. Rods out of a 1937 Packard.

 

3. Chevy Four Mains.

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Herm.

Edited August 9, 2018 by herm111 (see edit history)

[RansomEli]

Beautiful work.

[C Carl]

Sure am glad the other guys set you straight regarding oil. Saved me the trouble. Thanks !   -  Carl 

[george gohlike]

On 8/8/2018 at 6:46 PM, broker-len said:

looking for a shop that can pour babbit and line bore on early 30s motors

Harkin Arcola Babbitt Repair 

6513008785

[Rusty_OToole]

Engine bearings are still made of babbitt, they just use a different process to make them.

[Curti]

That is correct ! There is a builder in Ohio that does Auburn engines, inserts are used on both the rods and mains.  

[stakeside]

On 8/8/2018 at 10:28 PM, wayne sheldon said:

I know a fellow in Auburn Califunny that has done everything from a Caterpillar to a Stutz. He is good.

However, being on a world wide web? Your location is also very important.

Let me know if the Gold Country Sierra works for you.

Sent you a private message.

[Guest]

My engine always had Mobil Oil in it since 1947 when I remember seeing the Pegasus on the can and probably earlier.  Was it always detergent? Or when did it become detergent??

[Mark Simmons]

Was going to suggest you contact Herm in Iowa but see he's already responded. A1+++++ on the babbit work as always and I presume if they do line boring it would be to the same quality standards as the rebabbiting work.The pictures say enough.

[Rusty_OToole]

The way I heard it crude oil has a natural detergent or cleaning action that was in oils up to the 1940s. Then a new refining process took it out. This led to sludge problems so oil companies began adding detergents in 1947. It isn't detergent like you use in your washing machine but certain chemicals that keep the dirt in suspension and prevent it from gumming up your engine. At least, that is the way I heard it.

 

Multigrade oil depends on a different additive, like what STP is made of. They started making multigrade in 1951. It was the default choice in all gas stations and dealerships from the fifties on up. In other words if your car was made after WW2 chances are it hasn't used anything else but detergent oil and multigrade oil.

[Spinneyhill]

1 hour ago, Tinindian said:

when did it become detergent??

From https://iselinc.com/technology/brief-history-lubrication/

we get this paragraph:

"

1930s–1940s

Additives to inhibit oxidation, resist corrosion, enhance pour points, improve viscosity indexes, and more emerge in the 1930s. From the 1940s, they are widely used in lubricant formulations, especially to prolong the performance and service life of automotive engine oils. Prior to this time, engine oils without additives would typically provide only up to 80 to 100 hours of service. Also, the late 1940s marks the beginning of systematic oil analysis: The railway industry begins using it in an effort to avoid engine failures."

 

7 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

sludge problems

My reading shows that sludge formation is a natural tendency in oil with no additives. I read this in a 1940 text book by George George. This is one of the principle reasons oil change intervals were short.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[cahartley]

On 8/9/2018 at 7:22 AM, broker-len said:

their position is --------------------NEVER------------use detergent oil with pored bearings,,,,wanted some one else to ask

 

Find another shop....... 

[Hudsy Wudsy]

On 8/9/2018 at 11:25 AM, herm111 said:

We have poured bearings everyday for 54 years, all run on Detergent oil. Who every told you that is blaming oil for his bad workmanship, to cover his butt. In 54 years, we have Never had a bad bearing, or any bearing fail!

 

1. Aluminum Mains, and Rods out of a Franklin Auto.

 

2. Rods out of a 1937 Packard.

 

3. Chevy Four Mains.

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Herm.

 

 

Herm, that clean of a shop should fill anyone with confidence.

 

 

 

[John_Mereness]

My engine rebuilder uses:  http://ronsmachineshop.com/

[Joe in Canada]

Never put detergent oil in Babbitt OR insert  if it has been run for many miles with no detergent. The detergent oil will loosen up the crap in the engine causing wear.  

[Grimy]

55 minutes ago, Joe in Canada said:

Never put detergent oil in Babbitt OR insert  if it has been run for many miles with no detergent. The detergent oil will loosen up the crap in the engine causing wear.  

I guess I'll be the first of many to strongly disagree--where are you, Spinneyhill?

 

Very early detergent oils (early 1950s) MAY have had that effect, but not since.  I do recommend dropping the pan, and perhaps even cleaning out crankshaft oil passages and sludge traps, on any car that's had a steady diet of non-detergent oil.

 

Joe, look at it this way: If consistent use of non-detergent has partially occluded crankshaft oil passages, why would you want to make it worse?

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

1 hour ago, Joe in Canada said:

Never put detergent oil in Babbitt OR insert  if it has been run for many miles with no detergent. The detergent oil will loosen up the crap in the engine causing wear.  

 

 Old wife's tail, me thinks. In my 8 decades+ I have seen no evidence of such.

 

  Ben

[Spinneyhill]

19 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

Never put detergent oil in Babbitt OR insert  if it has been run for many miles with no detergent. The detergent oil will loosen up the crap in the engine causing wear.  

Sorry Sir, these two statements are complete myths. I thought we had laid these old tales to rest.

 

"Detergent" oil, or more correctly termed oil with additives, will not pick up years of rubbish deposited on the inside of an engine, in the oil ways such as in the crankshaft, on the timing gear, over the valve gear, in the ring lands in the pistons, you name it UNLESS there is a lot, and I mean a LOT of turbulence in that area. It is not a magic solvent (that might be the impression given by incorrectly calling it "detergent oil") that will remove the years of carbon and other muck deposited. What it WILL do is almost totally prevent deposition of any more of these combustion products and so on inside the engine. If the gaps are big already they will still be big. If there is a blockage in the crankshaft oil way preventing adequate oiling, it won't change much and the wear will continue if there is no oil getting there! Yes, the oil will get dirty quickly because it will pick up a little of this muck in turbulent areas, but not a huge amount.

 

The other thing to ponder is that engine bearings are Babbitt today too, although it is probably a different recipe. It is just deposited in a thin layer on a backing of some sort as opposed to a thick layer soldered onto a rod or cap.

 

18 hours ago, Grimy said:

I guess I'll be the first of many to strongly disagree--where are you, Spinneyhill?

Here I am! I am not too late to this party am I?

 

On 8/10/2018 at 12:22 AM, broker-len said:

their position is --------------------NEVER------------use detergent oil with pored bearings

Oh dear, more rubbish. Why? Oil today is better than it ever has been in terms of lubricating and preventing wear. If you use non-additive oil, rapid wear occurs. I suppose he wants repeat business. I sounds like he might know how to operate engine rebuilding machinery but knows nothing about the benefits of developments in engine oil that have been occurring since the very early days of combustion engines. What chemicals does he think attack Babbitt?

 

It sounds a bit like the really outlandish claims we have had that anti-freeze attacks Babbitt bearings. Of course it will: it is not a lubricant so the bearing will heat up and melt. Luckily we don't put the stuff in our lubricant reservoirs.

 

I'll just go outside now and make a fuss. This blasted nonsense just won't go away.

 

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Grimy]

38 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said:

Here I am! I am not too late to this party am I?

Not at all too late!  The rest of us can't approach your knowledge, wisdom and passion on the subject!  Thank you!

[C Carl]

RAP !! RAP !! RAP !! , tapped the drummer. And just before he blew some scorching high notes in announcing his arrival by way of a solo, Oran "Hot Lips" Page held his trumpet in hand and cried out : "Hear y'all havin' a party ! Mind if I join you ?"

 

Actually, from my experimentation, Joe makes a valid point. My 1924 Cadillac had about 59,000 miles when I got it, 30 years and 4 or 5 thousand miles ago. My intention was to have put about 10 times that on it by now, but my life was brutally hijacked. Previous owner had it for 12 or 13 years. Put only about 250 miles on over the period. Used 40 wt. non-det. I am addicted to synthetic lubricants, the oils of which are the most detergent of all. In order to change over in preparation for the intended mileage, I had an unemployed aero machinist whittle out, and re-bush to shaft dimensions, what you see below. Fortunate to have the external oil pump, I installed a large area of 40 micron full-flow filtration.

 

The last oil change had been done a few miles before I bought the car. It drained out clean. Dropping the pan, there was ZERO sludge in pan, or on screen. Although maintained only in parade, or drive down to the park condition, the car had never been owned by anyone who didn't understand it.Just a very small amount of light yellow wax on the main bearing webs. Bearings were beautiful, and in spec.Filled with detergent oil, first change came at about 200 miles. I think it was about 1/2 pint of crud and crap in the filter. Fresh oil changed at about 300 more miles, IIRC. This time about a thimble of crud. Next change at less than a thousand more miles, the filter had some, but an insignificant amount. I really don't HAVE to clean the screen at changes now. I would like to drop to 20 microns.

 

BUT : the oil gets very black very quickly after change. Now, at 60+ thousand miles, the never opened up engine is (over) due for the old time traditional 40,000 mile ring and valve routine. High oil consumption, though compression is not all that bad. Plenty of blowby. But still, the quickly blackened oil indicates an internal source which is continuously being cleaned out. Doesn't take a lot of carbon to dye oil black. No danger, no sweat, but little by little, whatever "sclerosis " exists, is being eroded, ever so slowly increasing the oil flow. Synthetic oil can also break up carbon seals at the rings.

 

I don't know what to do. I am getting "short". (Really; short on EVERYTHING, actually). But the doctors say the checkout counter appointment is indeterminate. So I want to enjoy what I can for a while. I am thinking of popping the top off the blocks and measuring taper. Lap the valves, new timing chain, and ?????????. Light hone & rings if that's all it needs, sure. But if it needs to be bored, I will be in mission creep territory ?????????. Clay the chambers and design higher compression aluminum pistons from Arias ??????????? 

 

But on topic, at a minimum, if I survive long enough, by getting into the engine at only the minimal level, more data will be revealed. More access will show where some deposits of sludge are being molecule by macro-molecule washed away. And don't forget the old-time periodic flush procedure. What was it ? How often? What : a flushing charge with fresh oil and i dunnow, was it 1/4 kerosene ? Run it at fast idle for a few minutes and drain ? How often did some of our mechanical ancestors do this ? 

 

"Hot Lips" blew way up into the high registers. A great admirer of Louis Armstrong, he could muster up a respectable challenge. Thanks for the Saturday night party !!!! Been listening to KNKX.org since 6:00. No "Lips" Page yet. Ken Wylie on his acclaimed "The Art of Jazz" program tomorrow 3:00-6:00 has the better chance. He does play him from time to time. Something for all jazz lovers, he sometimes gets a bit far out for me. But I am the only member of Puget Sound Traditional Jazz Society who actually met Clifford Jackson and heard him play. On a good night, Ken will spin him too.   -   Carl 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2019 by C Carl
Delete one redundant word (see edit history)

[Grimy]

Carl, my good friend, just keep changing the filter.  As far "black" oil goes, that simply means that the "detergents" are doing their job keeping contaminants in suspension rather than letting them settle out in your crankshaft and oil galleries. 

 

Oil consumption:  Oil is cheap, rebuild has a long payback that neither of us will ever see.  I remember a 1928 Buick owner's manual statement "A car properly broken in and in good operating condition can be expected to consume ONE GALLON [caps mine] per one thousand miles." 

[C Carl]

Hey now, y' ol' night owl ! Thanks, George, for the quick relief info. But on these V63 engines, manual specs 150 miles/quart.!!!!!  So I am not too worried. Certainly if I had another ten years left, and a significant chunk of the 20 million bucks my crazy mother blew away for me, "Old smokey" would be the finest Leland Cadillac V8 engine an unlimited amount of money could buy. And my beloved stump puller cogs would be assisted by overdrive. Just for LOAFING on down the line. This Cad doesn't have to go any faster. You and I are in the same "if you want a faster car, buy one" camp. These crates are verging on being legislated off the road as unsafe at any speed. When "snoopy" figures how much gasoline they inefficiently consume, they will target them like lawnmowers and back yard barbecues. How incredibly lucky our generation is to have lived when we did. And how lucky you and I and all the old folk who can still read this are to have lived so far into the 21st century, with more yet to enjoy ! 

 

Maybe let the snoozing pooches lie. But, Man! I would like to measure the bores. 60 thou' on the original timing chain ? One inch of circumferential fan free play is supposed to be change time. I am there. Oh, we'll see. And maybe some of the bastardos who owe me significant sums of money will see fit to contributing to cleaner air !    

 

And no, no changing the filter. Just clean the screen. I use gasoline for a solvent. I often flare it off afterwards. 😉.   -   CC 

[Bloo]

People seem to see a little oil burning these days and assume the engine is shot. Take a good look at this graph of normal oil consumption. It's from the 1936 Pontiac shop manual, and it's pretty close to the truth.....

 

 

....and look at the huge improvement from 1935 to 1936!

 

Quote

Oil consumption chart, Fig. 6, indicates definitely the difference in oil consumption at high and low speeds. Cars continually operated at high speed will not give high mileage, but the increased consumption at high speed is necessary in any well designed engine due to the increase in temperature and engine friction.

 

The chart is in Miles per Gallon, of oil. Let that sink in a minute.

 

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

Yep, I agree with Grimy. The oil gets black because it is soaking up combustion products, for example when it washes the cylinder walls behind the piston (and thus gets into the ring grooves) and around the valves in the valve guides. Those products consist mainly of carbon, although it contains many other elements and chemicals. That is the point of some of the additives in oil: they hold the dirt and it comes out at oil change time, rather than being deposited everywhere in the engine when you shut it down or in places the oil flow slows during running. Of course if you don't have an effective air cleaner, the oil will contain some of the dirt the engine has ingested in the fuel-air mixture too.

[Curti]

I run Shell Rotilla -T  15-40 in my Auburns and the Dodge Cummins.  I had a 98 Dodge 225 K miles that the oil on the dipstick was still clean after 4,000 miles.  The I bought it new 2014 Cummins 20K miles is black after 500 miles.

This confuses me.

[John_Mereness]

Carl C with the 1924 Cadillac, 40 weight oil is a little on the light side for early stuff (early 30's and older) like yours, especially the stuff without a fresh engine rebuild - a straight 50 weight may be  much more appropriate.   The metallurgy alone was night and day from 1925  to 1931 and really night and day between say even 1941. 

Edited April 7, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[Bloo]

The black is probably carbon blowing past the rings. Newer cars, especially for the last 20 years or so have better ring sealing. Old cars foul the oil. It isn't just carbon. Other combustion by-products get blown into the oil too. It is a good reason to change the oil a lot.

 

Diesels are another matter. Black oil is just the order of the day in those.

Edited April 7, 2019 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

Diesel engines are dirty. There is a lot of carbon produced. The oil goes black. They blow a lot of particulates out of the exhaust, which is why Paris and London are working towards banning them from the inner city.

 

4 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

Carl, 40 weight oil is a little on the light side for early stuff (early 30's and older), especially the stuff without a fresh engine rebuild - a straight 50 weight may be  much more appropriate.   The metallurgy alone was night and day from 1925  to 1931 and really night and day between say even 1941. 

Why do you say this? You put a viscous oil in at startup and you get more wear than if you use an oil that behaves as a less viscous oil at startup, i.e. a multrigrade, because full circulation begins sooner. My 1930 Dodge Brothers Instruction Book calls for SAE 30 oil, not SAE 50 so I would like to know where this idea of using a heavy oil comes from. They say clearances are less today: are they really?

[John_Mereness]

Sorry for any confusion, my comment was directed to C Carl and his original 1924 Cadillac's verses a brand new or restored 1930 Dodge.    I have no problem with multi-viscosity oil (matter of fact, I generally run this:  www.classiccarmotoroil.com/ and it is a multi-viscosity 40 weight made by DA Lubricants for our local CCCA chapter).   In a fresh restored engine designed for 30 weight then that is exactly what I would run.   In the 1924 Cadillac, I guess he could  run a  20W50, but  my guess too is the problems that he complains about would go away with 50 weight oil (at least it has in every early car we have ever owned whether restored or original  - I am one to do the math too and then you have a large groups of old timers that will yell at me and after a while I listened and have been glad I did). 

Edited April 7, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[herm111]

On 4/7/2019 at 12:31 AM, C Carl said:

RAP !! RAP !! RAP !! , tapped the drummer. And just before he blew some scorching high notes in announcing his arrival by way of a solo, Oran "Hot Lips" Page held his trumpet in hand and cried out : "Hear y'all havin' a party ! Mind if I join you ?"

 

Actually, from my experimentation, Joe makes a valid point. My 1924 Cadillac had about 59,000 miles when I got it, 30 years and 4 or 5 thousand miles ago. My intention was to have put about 10 times that on it by now, but my life was brutally hijacked. Previous owner had it for 12 or 13 years. Put only about 250 miles on over the period. Used 40 wt. non-det. I am addicted to synthetic lubricants, the oils of which are the most detergent of all. In order to change over in preparation for the intended mileage, I had an unemployed aero machinist whittle out, and re-bush to shaft dimensions, what you see below. Fortunate to have the external oil pump, I installed a large area of 40 micron full-flow filtration.

 

The last oil change had been done a few miles before I bought the car. It drained out clean. Dropping the pan, there was ZERO sludge in pan, or on screen. Although maintained only in parade, or drive down to the park condition, the car had never been owned by anyone who didn't understand it.Just a very small amount of light yellow wax on the main bearing webs. Bearings were beautiful, and in spec.Filled with detergent oil, first change came at about 200 miles. I think it was about 1/2 pint of crud and crap in the filter. Fresh oil changed at about 300 more miles, IIRC. This time about a thimble of crud. Next change at less than a thousand more miles, the filter had some, but an insignificant amount. I really don't HAVE to clean the screen at changes now. I would like to drop to 20 microns.

 

BUT : the oil gets very black very quickly after change. Now, at 60+ thousand miles, the never opened up engine is (over) due for the old time traditional 40,000 mile ring and valve routine. High oil consumption, though compression is not all that bad. Plenty of blowby. But still, the quickly blackened oil indicates an internal source which is continuously being cleaned out. Doesn't take a lot of carbon to dye oil black. No danger, no sweat, but little by little, whatever "sclerosis " exists, is being eroded, ever so slowly increasing oil the oil flow. Synthetic oil can also break up carbon seals at the rings.

 

I don't know what to do. I am getting "short". (Really; short on EVERYTHING, actually). But the doctors say the checkout counter appointment is indeterminate. So I want to enjoy what I can for a while. I am thinking of popping the top off the blocks and measuring taper. Lap the valves, new timing chain, and ?????????. Light hone & rings if that's all it needs, sure. But if it needs to be bored, I will be in mission creep territory ?????????. Clay the chambers and design higher compression aluminum pistons from Arias ??????????? 

 

But on topic, at a minimum, if I survive long enough, by getting into the engine at only the minimal level, more data will be revealed. More access will show where some deposits of sludge are being molecule by macro-molecule washed away. And don't forget the old-time periodic flush procedure. What was it ? How often? What : a flushing charge with fresh oil and i dunnow, was it 1/4 kerosene ? Run it at fast idle for a few minutes and drain ? How often did some of our mechanical ancestors do this ? 

 

"Hot Lips" blew way up into the high registers. A great admirer of Louis Armstrong, he could muster up a respectable challenge. Thanks for the Saturday night party !!!! Been listening to KNKX.org since 6:00. No "Lips" Page yet. Ken Wylie on his acclaimed "The Art of Jazz" program tomorrow 3:00-6:00 has the better chance. He does play him from time to time. Something for all jazz lovers, he sometimes gets a bit far out for me. But I am the only member of Puget Sound Traditional Jazz Society who actually met Clifford Jackson and heard him play. On a good night, Ken will spin him too.   -   Carl 

 

 

It looks like the filter measures, Two Feet, 4 inches, and 13/16's long !

 

Herm.

Edited April 8, 2019 by herm111 (see edit history)

[Guest]

7 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

Carl C with the 1924 Cadillac, 40 weight oil is a little on the light side for early stuff (early 30's and older) like yours, especially the stuff without a fresh engine rebuild - a straight 50 weight may be  much more appropriate.

The "Care and Operation of Pontiac Six Motor Cars"  manuals that I have 1926-1931 inclusive states under engine lubrication "In general, an oil having a body of S. A. E. viscosity No. 30 is recommended for summer use.  For winter use when temperature is below 40 degrees F. an oil having a body of S. A. E. viscosity No. 20 with a zero pour test (that is, will pour from a bottle at zero temperature) should be used."

Then there is a table 

""Hot Weather"     above 80 degrees   S. A. E. 40

"Summer"              40 to 80 degrees   S. A. E. 30

"Winter-Mild"          15 to 40 degrees  S. A. E. 20 

"Winter-Cold"      -15 to +15 degrees  S. A. E. 10    or  90% S. A. E.  20 + 10% Kerosene

"Very Cold"         below -15 degrees        90%  S. A. E. 10 + 10% kerosene   or 80% S. A. E. 20 + 20% kerosene

If an occasion arises where it is necessary to choose between two grades of oil, use the lighter grade of the two oils."

 

My Grandfather never drove the Pontiac in the winter so always used # 30 oil until it started to burn oil around 80,000 miles when he went to #40 and it still burned oil.

When I started driving it and drove it all year round I went back to #30 in the summer and #20 in the winter and eventually to #20 year round and the oil consumption dropped considerably.  When I overhauled the engine the first time and the second time I used #10 oil for over 100,000 miles and then went to #20 (never added any oil between changes).  

[Larry Schramm]

The worst oil today is better than the best oil "in the day" All of todays oil will work.