Mike Macartney

REPORTS ON A 1914 HUMBERETTE RESTORATION

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NOT a good way to hitch a ride...

 

Reminds me of a song.

 

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On ‎12‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 9:57 PM, mike6024 said:

The Ford piston will slightly increase the compression ratio as the extra height of 0.147" which equates to 6.71cc's

 

On ‎12‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 9:57 PM, mike6024 said:

can you show me how you got this? I came up with something very different.

 

Mike, I have worked the calculation through again this morning. The formula I used is Pi x r x the extra compression height.

 

Converting the inch measurement's into centimetres we have:

 

radius r = 84.7mm/2 =  8.47cm/2 = 4.235cm

extra compression height = 0.373cm

This time I came up with 8.34cc's

What did you come up with?

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On ‎12‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 6:15 PM, JV Puleo said:

The pins are interesting. It looks as if they were intended to float and had brass end to keep from scoring the bores. I don't see why you couldn't use those or make new ones to the same design. The only purpose of the teflon plugs is to prevent the pins digging grooves in the bore so anything you do to prevent that will accomplish the same thing.

 

Your post has given me food for thought! Since reading your last post I have been 'googling' the various options available for locating gudgeon pins. They all seem to have their own pros and cons!

 

What are Circlips?

 

Circlips, Retaining Rings and Snap Rings are fasteners that grasp elements or installations onto a shaft or in a dwelling/bore when assembled in a groove.

 

This is what I have always understood as an internal circlip. I have been used to using this type in the past for various jobs.

Internal Circlip Standard

Circlips Overview

I never before realised that there was a correct way round to fit these circlips. Shiny side to the gudgeon pin. Rough side to the outside. The rough side apparently helps the clip stay in place.

 

Now, I find that there are these, that I have never come across before.

 

Internal Circlip Lugged

 

Circlips Overview

Axially fitted to bores with grooves, similar to the standard design but with additional equal spaced lugs around the I.D. This feature assists in maintaining good contact with radiused or chamfered components for 16mm to 170mm bore. Well they are out of the question, because they are only available for 16mm diameter bores and above.

 

Snap Rings

 

Circlips Overview

Axially fitted in shallow grooves as conventional circlips. Often used to retain narrow section components with light side loads. Unlike conventional circlips, special fitting tools (circlip pliers) are not required. I have always found the retaining rings tricky to remove. They seem to be available in both round and square section. The round ones sometimes have 'sticky out bits' to make fitting them easier. They say "the round wire locking ring is nearly bullet proof. It is designed to be used with a pin which has a precision outside chamfer. Porsche has used these locks exclusively in all their engines for years".

 

Buttons or Pin Plugs

 

I believe most aircraft piston engines use these, but they are aluminium. Continental call them 'pin plugs'.

 

1972909567_Continentalpinplug.png.838ac6bbd2b752af34b69145819bfe8f.png

 

Teflon style buttons seem to be popular. I believe that these were originally used in engines that were stripped often for inspection. A problem seems to be that the softer Teflon can hold bits of grit that can score the bore.

 

imagesd.jpg.e580f0097193629911c5512b0d1b9e8f.jpg

The brass buttons that are in my original pistons I think have been put in by the person who stripped and 'rebuilt' the engine before me. He probably read the same book as me "The Vintage Motorcyclists' Workshop" by Radco. I have used this method with the last two vintage motorcycle engines, where I replaced the original cast iron pistons, with modern aluminium pistons. This is the first engine I have taken apart that has had these 'brass buttons' fitted and they have scored the bores in my Humberette engine! This has put me off fitting this type again.

 

Special Retainers

 

These seem to be very good. They look as if they may be a bit of a pain to remove and fit.

 

Retaining_Rings_Comparator_new.png.96fd45757ce05e0fd6152909fe09ed1f.png

Conclusions

 

I have enjoyed learning about the various methods of locating gudgeon pins. If I can find a company to make me new gudgeon pins I think I will go for the standard internal circlip as I should be able to grind a cutting tool to cut the locating groove in the bronze bushes. If I end up having to use the original Humberette gudgeon pins I will possibly make some Teflon buttons to replace the brass ones.

 

I hope you enjoy this Christmas Eve lecture on gudgeon pin 'fixings' as much as I have in learning about them. :)

 

Now to think through Joe's suggestions and the best methods for me to machine the bushes with the equipment I have.

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The last examples are used in the 1956-63 Hydramatic transmissions. The Spirolox have a small rectangular aperture at the ends to facilitate their removal with a small flat screwdriver. The diameter used in transmissions is rather large; I don't know if they would be suitable for a gudgeon pin. The ordinary stamped ring with ears are used on the input shaft at the fluid coupling.

The external snap rings with a square section are used on the output shaft; a specific tool is needed to remove or install them. Sometimes I have to fight a long time to get them away because the tool is slipping...

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52 minutes ago, Mike Macartney said:

I never before realised that there was a correct way round to fit these circlips. Shiny side to the gudgeon pin. Rough side to the outside. The rough side apparently helps the clip stay in place.

 

This is an example of why I follow this thread - I'm learning a lot of things! For example, the rough side versus the shiny side of the circlip - didn't know that.

 

Thanks Mike, you posts are very detailed and informative (and entertaining). 😊

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Many thanks Roger and r1lark for your input. Have a nice Christmas holiday.

 

I have had a very interesting email from my pal in Australia with details of the electric starter motor conversion that was fitted to his Humberette by a previous owner.

 

All very ingenious.

 

IMG_8822.thumb.jpg.4e7def10e185bc7113bb9f2c61ca3879.jpg

 

A starter ring shrunk onto the flywheel for the cone clutch. He is not sure what vehicle the starter ring is from, but it has 96 teeth, which may, or may not, be a clue.

 

IMG_8846.thumb.jpg.7d6d9ca8b2331844b0ebefdedfcd6aee.jpg

 

It appears to fit over the top of the gearbox where it is open where the clutch is, in the photo below.

 

1083.thumb.jpg.d6eda9bb556fe754d48a68b23ec54f67.jpg

 

It took me a while to find a photo of the gearbox (transmission). I have now taken over 2,500 photos of the Humberette, during the past year and half, that I have been 'playing' with the car.

 

The starter motor gives me yet something else to think about!

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I suspect the bores were scored before the brass caps were put in the pin. I don't get the feeling the last person to have your engine apart was what I'd call a meticulous workman.

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I think you are correct there, Joe! What do you think they originally used to hold the pins in place? The bores were quite badly marked in the position where the pins are.

 

I would mention something about farmers or butchers, but since I have 'met' Al and Ted, on this forum, I now realise, that not all farmers and butchers are like the old fashioned small farmers that I came across, in the past, in the UK, when I first moved up to Norfolk from London in the 1970's! One local farmer, who brought a Rolls Royce into us for some repair work, had hacked out a section of his rear bumper and arc welded a ball hitch to it so that he could take his pigs to the local market in a trailer. I suppose it was better than having the pigs trotting about inside the car!

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Merry Christmas Eve to you Mike.  It is great to see, chat, and learn of your plans regarding the Humberette.  Sometimes, I get overly busy with "things" I my world, that makes it so I can't respond and comment as often as I would like to.  I wish that we all just lived down the street from each other so we could drop by to philosophy, tease and help.  Second best is this forum medium, that allows us to chat literally around the world from each other.  I like all aspects of the antique automobile restoration process and you are doing it all, (and to a very competent level)!  Keep up the good effort.  Your project will be very tidy and should bring you lasting satisfaction when complete!

Al

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Take a look at the inside of the piston for signs of an attaching system. Most often it was a split pin or a clamp or a pin that screwed into the piston and passed through the piston pin. In 1914 it was believed that the pins should be tight so there was always some means of securing them, which often failed, hence the scoring.

 

You can make perfectly good new pins from drill rod (silver steel)... you can even drill them out to lighten them a little. It does not have to be hardened and it already has a ground finish. The hole can be reamed .001 to .0005 undersize or exactly to size - it doesn't make much difference but this should make doing the inside of the bushings much easier and give you an "as new" tolerance.

 

The original owner of the first RR I worked on was a sheep farmer in New Zealand. He often carried sheep around in the back seat...and said they'd made him the money to buy the car, they ought to be able to ride in it once in a while!

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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all I can do is smile.....farmers have generally needed to do what they can do......sometimes others would scratch their head in wonder or confusion at what they see!  I could share some "whoppers" on this subject for sure!  Those stories are for another time!

🙂

Al

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9 hours ago, Mike Macartney said:

The formula I used is Pi x r x the extra compression height.

 

Converting the inch measurement's into centimetres we have:

 

radius r = 84.7mm/2 =  8.47cm/2 = 4.235cm

extra compression height = 0.373cm

This time I came up with 8.34cc's

What did you come up with?

 

Using those numbers:

 

3.1415 x 4.235 x 4.235 x 0.373 = 21 cc  which agrees with my result. So your calculation agrees with mine, you just punched the numbers into your calculator wrong.

 

Bring this up because I am concerned it may be too much of a difference.

 

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8 hours ago, Mike Macartney said:

I think you are correct there, Joe! What do you think they originally used to hold the pins in place? The bores were quite badly marked in the position where the pins are.

 

I would mention something about farmers or butchers, but since I have 'met' Al and Ted, on this forum, I now realise, that not all farmers and butchers are like the old fashioned small farmers that I came across, in the past, in the UK, when I first moved up to Norfolk from London in the 1970's! One local farmer, who brought a Rolls Royce into us for some repair work, had hacked out a section of his rear bumper and arc welded a ball hitch to it so that he could take his pigs to the local market in a trailer. I suppose it was better than having the pigs trotting about inside the car!

We had a customer who would come in twice a year with an old two stroke Saab wagon (I’m not sure of the brand but believe it was a Saab), and he had his pigs in it. Man that car stunk! The car was old and in rough condition including the motor and at least a couple times the motor would only start and run backwards. I know one time he left the yard in reverse moving forward. Merry Christmas my friend.

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14 hours ago, mike6024 said:

Using those numbers:

 

3.1415 x 4.235 x 4.235 x 0.373 = 21 cc  which agrees with my result. So your calculation agrees with mine, you just punched the numbers into your calculator wrong.

 

Bring this up because I am concerned it may be too much of a difference.

 

Ooop's. I just tried the calculation on the same calculator this morning and it came up with 152cc's! ? ! ? I then did the calculation on an Excel spreadsheet and it comes to the same amount as you calculated. Thanks for pointing out this problem. I think the calculator is heading for the bin!

 

I'll check what difference it makes to the compression ratio, but not with the calculator!

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18 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Take a look at the inside of the piston for signs of an attaching system.

 

I'll take a look and see if I can find any evidence of anything. Thanks for the suggestion on making the gudgeon pins myself.

 

It sound if farmers where the same world wide and not just in Norfolk!

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Good Morning Mike,  I presume and hope that you and the Missus had a delightful Christmas!  We sure did.  I like the concept of using "Drill Rod" for the grudgeon pin bushings.  That stuff is TOUGH!  I have used it for specialty products also but learned that you certainly do not want it to get hot during the machining process or you are done machining....it gets harder than the back of a hard headed persons head!  One of my favorite "Farmer" stories involved a Great Uncle who MANY years ago, had his Model T out on the desert west of us about 40 miles.  The poor old "T" started to bang a connecting rod.  Before it completely failed, he stopped, drained out the oil, took off the offending rod cap, cut the leather tongue  out of his work boot, fit in the cap, cranked it down, loaded the oil again and drove home very slowly.  Sometimes we farmers are the "mothers of improvision" for sure.  I noted elsewhere that maybe Mike needs a bit of a nudge! 🙂 .  If Mike and Jane get a chance, it would be nice to see a delightful couple seated in the newly re trimmed Humberette body along with the top up so we can all see just how cozy you two can get.  That may just give some of us the "drive" (play on words) to set some good New Years resolutions.  And this is a biggie New Years as we are kicking off a brand new Decade.  Lets make our time count and boy am I talking to me!  Keep up the good work on the bottom end of your Humberette engine!

Al

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Mike, I just checked out your couple of action pictures of you and your Crestmobile on the London to Brighton Run a few years back.  Some of us can only dream of such things, and you get to enjoy...good for you.

Al

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8 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Some of us can only dream of such things, and you get to enjoy...good for you.

 

It is called determination! I had always wanted to do the London to Brighton run since I was around 8-years old. When I retired I started buying cheapish vintage motorcycles and restoring them. After a few years of messing about with motorcycles I had a few quid's worth. I don't have holidays, play golf, go out for expensive meals or wear posh clothes. I thought I was running out of time to accomplish my dream. I had a look to see what veteran cars were available and how much they cost. After some time I found an advert of somebody selling the Crestmobile in Belgium. It seemed to be about the cheapest veteran car available. I contacted the guy and said that I could not afford to buy the car at present until I sold some of my motorcycles. He asked what motorcycles I had and I sent him a list. He agreed to swop the Crestmobile for a couple of motorcycles and the balance in cash. Jane and I borrowed a trailer, took the Ford van, with the bikes in the back and trailer over to the continent on a day trip and came back with the Crestmobile. It had been in a open barn for about eight years and looked very sorry for itself. I then applied to enter the run and worked my socks off to get the Crestmobile running and presentable for the run that November. Most things are possible but you need to prioritise what you actually want to achieve.

 

IMG_2224.JPG.ebb11d8963f8145b759b627438c25420.JPG

 

Collecting the car in Belgium.

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Interesting story...Anyway, you certainly had no trouble to travel with that light vehicle on the trailer, especially traveling so many miles. We had more difficulties when my '72 de Ville was transported from the customs in Zurich to Bienne (about 100 miles) because the car was a tad too far back, plus the weight from the spare parts in the trunk! At more than 40 MPH, the trailer began to dance...

The car is loaded.JPG

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Hello Mike and Roger,

It looks like you have both had some epic adventures!  Thanks for sharing the stories with us.  Mike, the crest mobile is a dainty  and pretty early automobile.  You must be happy to have in stored away and waiting for the next adventure!  What is even better, the Humberette will also be in the great looking and fine running mode just waiting to serve you at your "beck and call".  Do you have a solid resolution for your wrist pin (other side of the pond nomenclature) issue?

Al

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Since before Christmas I have been suffering, yet again, from a bad chest infection. So far, this time I have managed to keep out of hospital!

 

Yesterday, I thought I felt a bit better and ventured out to the workshop, to have a bit of a clear up, before starting to do some proper work on the engine. After a half an hour I was knackered and had to pack up. At least, being confined to the house I have managed to some planning of the work and I have at last done the calculation for the compression ratio using the Ford pistons.

 

HUMBERETTE ENGINE WITH PISTONS THAT WERE WITH IT    
     
BORE VOLUME CALCULATION mm cm/cc's
Bore Diameter 84.250 8.425
Bore Radius 42.125 4.213
Area of bore( pi R squared)   55.77
Stroke Length 90.00 9
Therefore Volume of One Bore C7 x  C8 (Vd)   502
Number of Cylinders 2 2
Therefore Volume of Two Bore's C9 x C10   1004
     
Measured Volume of combustion chamber (approximate)   180
     
Compression Ratio    
Guessing that the compression ratio of the era maybe around 4.5:1    
CR = (Swept volume Vd + combustion camber volume above piston Vc) divided by combustion chamber volume Vc)    
     
Therefore: Vd +Vc equals   682
     
Therefore: Existing Compression Ratio CR = (Vd + Vc)/Vc   3.8
     
THE FORD ZETEC PISTON DETAILS mm cm/cc's
Bore Diameter 84.70 8.470
Bore Radius 42.35 4.235
Area of bore( pi R squared)   56.37
Stroke Length 90.00 9
Therefore Volume of One Bore C7 x  C8   507
Number of Cylinders 2 2
Therefore Volume of Two Bore's C9 x C10   1015
     
Extra height of Ford piston above Humberette piston 3.73 0.373
Therefore the extra volume that takes up is   21
     
Therefore the new Combustion chamber volume Vc = 180cc -21cc   159
     
So now  Vd +Vc equals   666
     
Therefore: New Compression Ratio CR = (Vd + Vc)/Vc   4.2

 

 

Now that surprised me. I thought it would have made the compression ratio a bit higher than 4.2:1

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Thank you Roger. I'll do my best. I don't think the damp weather at this time of year does me much good. Perhaps I would be better staying in the warm and start doing some model making!:)

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1 hour ago, Mike Macartney said:

 Perhaps I would be better staying in the warm and start doing some model making!:)

Then, I could be able to help you more than with your present project!

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