Mike Macartney

REPORTS ON A 1914 HUMBERETTE RESTORATION

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22 hours ago, chistech said:

Well, at least no jokes I can post.

 

I think it must be very difficult being a comedian on stage these days. The 'political correctness' that there is today has made all the jokes that I seem to remember, from the days of old, unrepeatable!

 

I have been doing a bit more to the conrod over the weekend and this morning.

 

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When I rotated my indicator rod in the existing locating pin holes, in conrod small big end, it moved from side to side. It must have bent a bit in the lathe, when I let go of it, to take the photo in my last post - oh blast!

 

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I sketched out the approximate size, in my notebook, that my jig needed to be, for holding the conrod ridgid on the milling table.

 

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Machined up some brackets to hold the big end.

 

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Maybe something like this will work? Perhaps I should have drawn something up first, rather than making it up as I went along!

 

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I tacked the two bits of 2" x 1" box at right angles. I am amazed how quickly I can make a mess!

 

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I clamped these two bits of scrap metal together to make the brackets for holding the small end of the main conrod.

 

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Then milled them to the same size.

 

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Machined up a spacer for the larger bearing of the conrod so I could use a bolt to mount the brackets.

 

The site won't let me load any more photos on this post - I'll be back in a moment!

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Back again with some more on making the jig for repairing the conrod.

 

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Perhaps something like this will do.

 

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Well, at least the box sections seem to be at right angles to each other!

 

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Thinks?!? - What about making the box section bolt to the milling table and make the bracket for the small end to also bolt to the mill table and not to the box section. I can then slide the small end bracket along to get the angle correct for the two existing holes in the larger big end to be in line for drilling out for the spiral pin. When the holes are in line vertically I can clamp down the bracket on the small end.

 

This time I have run out of photos - I got carried away and forget to download them to my laptop! Back soon.

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It’s a shame these days mike how everyone is offended. I’m of Portuguese, Italian, and Irish decent and all my siblings are walking joke encyclopedias with no nationality being omitted. We weren’t raised with any prejudice, only a ton of laughter. None of us are offended if one of our siblings or friends “bust” us and give us a hard time as it’s all in fun. It a shame the world is no longer that way.

 

Now, back to the Humbrette, great work, and every day I go looking through the restoration threads for specific ones including yours. I need my everyday “fix”, thanks!

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21 minutes ago, chistech said:

We weren’t raised with any prejudice, only a ton of laughter. None of us are offended if one of our siblings or friends “bust” us and give us a hard time as it’s all in fun. It a shame the world is no longer that way.

 

I blame Facebook and the like. It has given, small groups of people, a very loud voice?

 

25 minutes ago, chistech said:

I need my everyday “fix”, thanks!

 

Every morning I look forward to reading and seeing what others have been doing with their restoration work. I am especially missing your offerings now that you have finished the Oldsmobile. I thank YOU for your contribution to my learning. I am looking forward to your next project.

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I have now downloaded the photos and can continue with my posting.

 

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Machined up a base for the bracket for the small end of the conrod. This will weld to the two side plates and clamp that 'small end' of the conrod to the milling table. I slotted the hole so the bracket would line up, even if it did not line up with the T-slot in the milling table. Unfortunately, the only suitable bit of scrap I had for the bracket was galvanised. I ground off the galvanising where I needed to weld the side plates on to the base. I hope I ground off enough not to get 'metal fume fever' after the welding.

 

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Before welding the clamp for the small end of the conrod I thought I had better check it. I am pleased I did, 'Sods Law' was correct! The brackets for the big end, I had bolted on the wrong way round, the corners did not clear the pin. The other problem was that my yellow press, on the left of the photo, was in the way of table moving across far enough for the quill to line up with the holes. I undid the clamping bolts and slid the whole jig to the left. I hope the mill table will go low enough to drill the hole for the spiral pin?

 

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It did.

 

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I slid the pin back to check that the 3.5mm diameter drill would go through both holes cleanly. I then tightened up all the clamping bolts and was pleased how ridgid the holding jig was.

 

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I pushed the pin into position clamped the pin in place with welding clamps, to stop it moving, and drilled the hole through the pin for fitting the spiral pin.

 

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Tapped the pin gently, to get it started. Sorry about the blurred photo. I did check the size of hole that I needed for the spiral pin, to be a tight 'push fit', on a bit of scrap bar. And Yes Roger, I did manage to break a drill when I was practising drilling the correct size hole!  I did not want to break a drill in the actual pin. I will fit another pin in the other side, but that's enough stress for today!

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As a lot of us know, the time to make the jigs to do the work correctly often exceeds the actual time to do the job ten fold but there’s no other way to do it right.

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21 hours ago, chistech said:

As a lot of us know, the time to make the jigs to do the work correctly often exceeds the actual time to do the job ten fold but there’s no other way to do it right.

 

As I have found out. I have learnt a great deal from following 'you lot' on this excellent site.

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38 minutes ago, Mike Macartney said:

 

As I have found out. I have learnt a great deal from following 'you lot' on this excellent site.

We all learn from each other as we all have some specialties in something and more normalities in others. Learning from others of their specialties helps us increase our normalities to specialties. Hey pretty soon guys on this page could start the next Tesla! 😁

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I don't know if this is the correct way to fit a spiral locating pin into the conrod, but . . . .

 

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I squeezed it in using the vice, it worked OK. I must admit, I was a bit concerned. I used the spare pin to gauge how much to wind the vice handle in.

 

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This is the underside.

 

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The spiral pin is slightly too long but I am just happy to have managed to replace the original split pin and go rid of the elongated holes.

 

Now I am going for 'belt and braces'!

 

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I am going to also fit a spiral pin on this side. I marked the approximate line of the pin with a blue marker.

 

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I turned the jig around on the milling bed so that it was easier to centre the drill. I adjusted the position of the small end mounting bracket until the blue marker pen lines were more or less vertical and then tightened up all the nuts and bolts holding the conrod and the jig to the table.

 

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Rather than attempting to line up table slides to zero and work from there, I just eyed up the centre drill position in the middle. When I have tried setting the slides to zero and working from out positions from there I have managed to get in a 'mucking fuddle' as there is so much slack on the handwheels on this old milling machine. There maybe adjustments I could make to take out the slack buy I haven't worked out how to do it yet.

 

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It was lined up by eye In both planes. Then centre drilled for the second hole.

 

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I used a 3.9mm drill next . . . .

 

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. . . . then a 4mm drill for the final size for the spiral pin.

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Nearly there . . . .

 

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I closed up the jaws of the drill chuck and used the quill of the mill,this time,to start pushing the spiral pin into the hole.

 

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All done. This time setting up, drilling and fitting the second pin took about an hour!

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Excellent!

The slack in the hand wheels is caused by wear to the lead screw & nut. It can be fixed but it is a big job and will require dismantling the table, maybe even removing the table from the saddle if you can't get the nut out otherwise. Changing just the nut will help as it is usually the most worn part. It will be bronze and have an acme thread. You can get acme threaded bronze nuts. If you can find the original parts manual it may give you a good idea of what is involved. They usually include exploded views of the parts so you can see ahead of time what you are up against.

 

Is that metric machine or an imperial one? If Imperial you can figure out what the thread on the lead screw and nut is by the graduations on the dial. If the traverse travels 1/4" per revolution it has a pitch of 1:4 if it travels 1/8" it's 1:8, If it travels .100, it's 1:10.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Mike Macartney said:

I don't know if this is the correct way to fit a spiral locating pin into the conrod, but . . . .

 

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I squeezed it in using the vice, it worked OK. I must admit, I was a bit concerned. I used the spare pin to gauge how much to wind the vice handle in.

 

 

Mike, I would have use the same method!

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I was wondering about that too. Now that the pivot is tight, are the gudgeon pins still at different heights? Will the holes in the pistons need to be at different heights?

 

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5 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Excellent!

The slack in the hand wheels is caused by wear to the lead screw & nut. It can be fixed but it is a big job and will require dismantling the table, maybe even removing the table from the saddle if you can't get the nut out otherwise. Changing just the nut will help as it is usually the most worn part. It will be bronze and have an acme thread. You can get acme threaded bronze nuts. If you can find the original parts manual it may give you a good idea of what is involved. They usually include exploded views of the parts so you can see ahead of time what you are up against.

 

Is that metric machine or an imperial one? If Imperial you can figure out what the thread on the lead screw and nut is by the graduations on the dial. If the traverse travels 1/4" per revolution it has a pitch of 1:4 if it travels 1/8" it's 1:8, If it travels .100, it's 1:10.

It might actually be easier buying a X&Y digital readout system and mounting it on the machine. My Alliant machine has play in the hand wheels but the DR gives the actual movement. My unit works very well and I’ve seen them advertised for less than $500. By the time you figure the work to try and fix the feed screws and the fact that after all that work you will still probably have more play than wanted, the DR cost doesn’t seem that bad for the results you’ll end up with.

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That thought didn't even occur to me but it's a good idea.

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Thank you guys. It gives me a lot to think about. Here are some of the answers to the above posts.

 

16 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Is that metric machine or an imperial one?

 

I think this Archdale mill was built before metric was invented! :)

 

13 hours ago, mike6024 said:

Since you are staying with the original connecting rods, I suppose you will need to get new pistons made,

 

Mike & Bloo

I have a couple of new modern Ford Zetec pistons that I may use, or two BMW 315 pistons. I now need to finish the bottom end, put the engine back together with the original pistons and check the piston heights again, to find out if it was my measuring that was wrong, or something else .

 

10 hours ago, chistech said:

It might actually be easier buying a X&Y digital readout system and mounting it on the machine.

 

What a good idea. I will have a look at some of the systems available. After having a quick look it seems you can buy some systems at just over the £100 mark. Are cheap ones worth buying?

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Static balancing of the crankshaft, flywheels and conrods etc. on this 55 degree V-twin Humber engine with its 'slave and master' conrods. I am confused after reading "Tuning for Speed" by P E Irving and "The Vintage Workshop" by Radco as to how to go about this process. Can anybody point me in the direction of more information on the subject (hopefully, easier to understand)?

 

I can mount the crankshaft assembly with the rods between centres in my lathe. I am hoping that this would be a good starting point.

 

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Photo showing the conrod assembly and the two flywheels.

 

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The flywheels with the conrods attached. The small ends of the conrods will sit between the lathe bed rails of my large lathe.

 

Here's hoping someone can suggest something useful.

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Can that be done? I've always thought static balancing required spinning the crank and noting where it stops. If it stops in the same place every time, that is the heavy spot. When the stopping point is random it is close to being in balance. But, that system will always stop in the same place and I don't see how it can be done with the rods attached. I could easily be very wrong here...so I'm interested in what the members who have more experience with this than I do have to say. With my conventional engine I would balance the crankshaft and flywheel separately and weigh the rods and pistons so that everything was equal. I don't see how that can be applied to the Humber engine. I suspect that thick portion of the flywheel in the photo was intended to be a counterweight and that what balance was achieved was by machining the surfaces to the same tolerances.

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There are some videos on balancing Harley flywheels. Not sure if they'd help. They install a dummy weight, or bob weight, in the place of the connecting rods.

 

 

 

 

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On ‎11‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 5:03 PM, JV Puleo said:

Can that be done? I've always thought static balancing required spinning the crank and noting where it stops. If it stops in the same place every time, that is the heavy spot. When the stopping point is random it is close to being in balance. But, that system will always stop in the same place and I don't see how it can be done with the rods attached.

 

I am getting there with my learning. You are more or less correct. I have done a lot of reading in the last few days and am now trying to inwardly digest the information I have gleaned. I will attempt to write up about balancing the V-twin engine when my understanding is a bit better.

 

Just a thought Joe after reading your last Mitchell post re heat treating the starting handle ratchet. Should I take the new big end pin I made and fitted, out again, and have it heat treated? Your thoughts would be appreciated.

 

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11 hours ago, mike6024 said:

They install a dummy weight, or bob weight, in the place of the connecting rods.

 

The flywheels go round and round and the piston and conrod goes up and down. This is the big problem with balancing this V-twin engine. It has to be a compromise. I will add more info later on.

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No. The usual process when doing something like that is to get it hardened first and then to grind the surface. That calls for a cylindrical grinder and a new big end bushing...none of which are needed since I very much doubt the original was hardened and it can't possibly get enough use for the added surface toughness to make a difference.

 

In the case of the hub and hand crank it's only because of the impact wear that comes from cranking and I'm wondering if that is sufficient to warrant doing it. I think I'll test the original piece... but I'm sure that isn't hard so maybe I'll forget it.

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Many thanks for information Joe. I am pleased that at least I will not have to try and remove those spiral pins to get the big end pin in out.

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Yesterdays 'playtime' in the workshop didn't get off to the best of starts, then it seemed to get even worse!

 

I got Jane to help me replace the gloves in my Guyson Blast Cabinet.

 

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The left hand glove we replaced quite easily. The biggest job was stretching it over the triangular frame and then punching holes for the screws through the rubber glove.

 

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On punching the holes in the right hand glove I managed to pick up the wrong diameter punch off the bench and broke the plastic. I was annoyed with myself.

 

Mounting the Humberette crank assembly between centres on the lathe is not easy, for me, as it is quite heavy.

 

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I placed a length of bar, of the same diameter as the main shaft, in the lathe chuck.

 

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. . . . and measured the height the flywheels needed to raise up to be approximately in line with the lathe centres.

 

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Found a couple of bits of wood of approximately the right thickness. This helped a great deal.

 

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I wanted to get the flywheel into such a position on the lathe that the conrods would 'dangle down' and let the flywheels rotate so that I could line them up.

 

This was easier said than done. The photo below has been rotated in an attempt to make it easier to understand.

 

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The only way, with the tools and equipment I had, was to fit the No.3 Morse taper revolving centre (on the right) in the 3-jaw chuck. Every time I tried to adjust the flywheels, it wasn't very successful, as the Morse taper doesn't clamp very well in a 3-jaw chuck. I gave up for the day and ordered a female Morse taper in a straight shank. Hopefully that will work better.

 

One interesting thing I found was that whatever position the flywheel was rotated to it stayed in that position and did not rotate on its own. Therefore the static balance, as it is now, cannot be too far out.

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23 hours ago, Mike Macartney said:

One interesting thing I found was that whatever position the flywheel was rotated to it stayed in that position and did not rotate on its own. Therefore the static balance, as it is now, cannot be too far out.

 

How wrong can you be?!?

 

Yesterday, I loosed the 'pressure' that the tailstock was putting on the rotating centres and the big end and conrods did rotate down to the bottom when the flywheels were rotated and left to find their own position. So I was incorrect with my statement above!

 

 

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