Mike Macartney

REPORTS ON A 1914 HUMBERETTE RESTORATION

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Very pleased to hear that I have managed to help you, Joe, for a change, after you have helped me so much with my machining learning. I got the idea from checking the opening point of contact points when checking the ignition on my motorcycles. I used to use a thin cigarette rolling paper to find out when the points were just opening. At one time I gave up smoking for a few years, didn't have a cigarette paper handy, so used a bulb and battery instead.

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Have had a bit of luck with Humberette engine parts.

 

I can't remember whether, or not, I mentioned about some Humberette engine parts that somebody found under the bench of a late Humberette owner. An email was sent by a Humber Register member to all known Humberette owners about an engine casing and flywheels that had been found. As soon as I received the email I contacted the person to say I was interested but got a reply back to say that they had already been promised to somebody else. That was 6-months ago. Last week, out of the blue, I got an email saying did I still want the parts for £50. I emailed back immediately saying YES PLEASE! I paid and arranged to have them collected by TNT. Guess what - TNT lost the flywheels! After much pestering of TNT, they managed to find the missing flywheels and delivered them to me this week.

 

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The aluminium casting are much better than the ones on my engine.

 

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The main problem is going to be trying to remove the corroded studs and other steel parts from the aluminium castings.

 

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I think the castings themselves will clean up OK.

 

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The flywheels have been split from the main shafts and the front main shaft is missing. But at least I have some spare flywheels if the 'bolting up' of my flywheels to the main shaft does not work for some unknown reason. I look at the purchase of these flywheels as a bit of an insurance policy!

 

Being laid up the other week and not being capable of doing much, I spent a fair bit of time on eBay looking for bargains,  not a good idea! I happened to buy, very cheaply, the following 40 taper, with 5/8" BSW drawbar thread, collet chucks for my old Archdale milling machine. I have looked on the internet to see if I can find out what collets may fit these chucks but can't find anything similar. Can anybody suggest what they may be and would similar collets in other sizes be available? Or are they now extinct and hence why the tooling I bought was extremely cheap!?!

 

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No collet came with this tool.

 

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One collet and sleeve came with this tool.

 

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This came with just one collet.

 

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Again, just with this collet.

 

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This is what the collet looks like when removed from the chuck.

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It looks like whoever owned that flywheel had the same problem with the rivets coming loose.

Are there any identifying numbers on the collet you have?

 

In thinking about it, I'd just get a 40 taper ER collet holder. The ER collets are readily available and cheap. In the long run that would be easier, and probably cheaper than searching for a set of obscure collets. The taper is NMTB 40. CAT 40 is the same taper but doesn't have the straight section on the end of the taper. It does have a threaded hole and I think it's the same thread as the NMTB taper. The CAT holders often have a button screwed into the end for a quick change unit. You don't want that...I've got a few that I've been unable to get the button out of. They might need a slightly longer drawbar but I wouldn't know about that unless I tried one.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Yes, it looks as if it could have been a common problem with this engine.

I will have a look at the collets, in the morning, to see if there are any identifying numbers. I don't think there were, as I would have probably taken a photo of them if they were there.

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Good score on those engine parts Mike!

 

I would have been pretty upset about the shipper losing those rare flywheels, glad they finally found them. 

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Mike, I have a friend that is a mechanic at a dealership. He told me a while back that to remove steel bolts or studs from aluminum is to put idadine on them and let sit at least an hour. Then they come right out. It's worth a try. Mike

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3 hours ago, Mike "Hubbie" Stearns said:

Mike, I have a friend that is a mechanic at a dealership. He told me a while back that to remove steel bolts or studs from aluminum is to put idadine on them and let sit at least an hour. Then they come right out. It's worth a try. Mike

What is idadine?

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Very interesting. Because that's the same problem rebuilders of Alfa Romeo engines have. You cannot remove the studs from the aluminum block without stripping out the threads.

 

They say EDM  (Electrical Discharge Machining) can be used. And there are machine shops that have this device. And it's not necessarily too expensive, maybe $50 to remove a broken bolt or broken tap in an aluminium casting. And supposedly the aluminum remains undamged, looking like it was freshly tapped.

 

 

Edited by mike6024 (see edit history)
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Here's another suggestion from another forum: "use a "Rosebud" oxy/acet torch tip to heat up the aluminum base area around the specific stud being pulled just before removal..."

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38 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

Very interesting. Because that's the same problem rebuilders of Alfa Romeo engines have. You cannot remove the studs from the aluminum block without stripping out the threads.

 

Oh yes you can! and I have done it, more than once after I figured out how. The head studs might still be kind of tough, but not impossible.

 

Put something on the stud that can turn it. Nuts, vise grip, stud extractor, whatever. It does need to have a bite on the stud but does not need to be capable of much torque. Hold a slight bit of torque against your implement of destruction, whatever it is. Not much, don't try to break it loose or unscrew it, just lean on it a wee bit. Play an acetylene torch all around the threaded area. Keep the torch moving! (because aluminum melts suddenly, without warning). Cover a fairly wide area, because you don't want to stress or warp anything. just keep playing that torch around and get the area of the stud a little hotter and hotter as you go. Eventually, you will feel your turning device start to release the slight pressure under your hand. Play the torch a little more and it will start to turn. When it starts to fall away, heat just a wee bit more, then get rid of the torch quick so you don't have to stop turning (it helps to have either a second person or a torch stand). Once it starts turning do not stop turning until it is all the way out!

 

Penetrating oil can help. The best penetrating oil in the world, when heat is involved (and maybe when it isn't) is Mopar Rust Penetrant. Don't overdo it though, any excess oil going to burn....

 

Don't think of this like you would think of putting brute force (or shock) on an easy-out or stuck bolt to break up rust. Think more of the ocean destroying a rock outcropping over several thousand years, not doing much, but never letting up either.

 

Works on Alfas (and lots of other aluminum things). I can't guarantee the threads will survive, but they usually do, and if they were ok before you started this process they will probably be fine. Have fun.

 

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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Interesting... PM Heldt's 1912 book on Gasoline Engine Design states that you should never thread steel directly into aluminum so this has been a known problem for a very long time. When RR wanted to attach something to an aluminum casting it either used through-bolts or threaded a permanent bronze liner into the hole.

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Wow - what a lot to take in and research. Thanks guys. The EDM process looks very interesting, but could be rather expensive, with so many steel parts to remove from the aluminium castings. I hadn't even thought much about removing the studs and other steel parts yet. I just put some penetrating oil on the steel parts and put the crankcase to one side, until I get around to doing something with it, after I have finished the crank, flywheels and conrods.

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16 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

In thinking about it, I'd just get a 40 taper ER collet holder. The ER collets are readily available and cheap

 

The problem that I have, with where the old Archdale Mill is in the workshop, is that I can't remove the 5/8 BSW drawbar from the machine, because the ceiling in the workshop is too low to remove it. If the worst comes to the worst, and I have to replace it with a M16 or 5/8 UNC drawbar I may have to have a hole cut in the roof and a cover made to stop the rain coming in. I'll keep looking and see if a 40 taper 5/8 BSW drawbar thread ER collet holder comes up for sale.

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On ‎9‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 4:51 PM, JV Puleo said:

Are there any identifying numbers on the collet you have?

 

I had a good look at all the 40 taper collet chucks that I bought on eBay. Unfortunately, none of the collets or holders have any numbers or writing on them at all.

 

Not a lot got done yesterday. It was probably the last day of the year that we will have some decent sunshine and warm weather. As we have hardly been out in the V8 MGB this year, we decided to go out for lunch in it. We didn't go that far, just to a local pub a few miles away . . .

 

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The Banningham Crown.

 

I managed to get a bit done to the 5c collet adapter before we left.

 

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Skinned the outside diameter, bevelled the edge, centre drilled and drilled a hole right through the adapter

 

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I then drilled the hole out to 15/16" with the largest drill I have. I thought that if the taper I had made could hold the adapter while I drilled this hole the taper must be OK. No one was more surprised than me that it did not move at all. At some time in the future I shall have to try and make something to hold the threaded ring that holds the chucks on the spindle. It rattles around annoyingly while you are machining.

 

Another item I managed to buy on eBay was this 12" face plate with an L0 fitting. It came off a Colchester lathe and looks as if it has had very little work. . . .

 

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. . . . just a little surface rust that I need to clean off when I manage to have enough strength to carry it up to the workshop!

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That looks really good Mike. If you do everything to the adapter while it is in the spindle it has come out concentric. I'd measure the inside of the adapter you have and work to those dimensions.

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Thanks Joe. As I wanted to also make an adapter for 3MT, and did not want to move the angle on the compound slide, until I had machined the taper on the second adapter. I thought I would see if the 3-jaw chuck would fit on the spindle with the half finished 5c adapter still inside the spindle taper. As luck would have it - it fitted without having to remove the 5c adapter. 

 

After that bit of luck everything else went 'pear shaped'. Even again, just now, trying to 'Photoshop' the photos! I will explain tomorrow when I may have better luck. One photo is OK, so here it is.

 

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First problem. The cross slide would not go in far enough for machining the taper when using a centre to hold the 'free' end. Looking back, perhaps I should have used a longer bit of bar to machine?

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On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 4:51 PM, Mike Macartney said:

After that bit of luck everything else went 'pear shaped'

 

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As I started machining the taper nothing seemed to happen. "Strange" I thought. Then I realised that the cutting tool had 'pushed' the bar into the chuck jaws and away from the centre in the tailstock.

 

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It also slipped rotationally in the 3-jaw chuck. Perhaps I should have cleaned off the rust before I fitted it in the chuck?

 

I gave up for the day feeling rather dejected.

 

On the way back to the house I went into the bottom workshop to see if I could find anything that I could use for a thrust bearing to use against the gearbox end of the headstock spindle.

 

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The gearbox end of the headstock spindle.

 

I found these two things that maybe of use.

 

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A collar and a tapered roller bearing. It was an unknown 'old stock' BMW wheel bearing that my daughter was throwing away. I had 'squirreled it away' in a cupboard a few years ago, as I thought it was too good to chuck away. I noted the measurements in my note book, with the intention of sketching out how to work out a locking device for the 5c collets.

 

The next day - things got better.

 

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I checked the length of the taper needed by holding up the MT5 to MT3 taper adapter that I had bought and decided that the scrap bit of bar that I was going to use was too short to hold successfully in the chuck. I looked for another bit of bar to use.

 

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I found a nice length of roughly the diameter I needed. This time, I removed the worst of the rust before turning the bar around and fitting it in the chuck.

 

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I new that with this length of bar in a 3-jaw chuck I was never going to get it running true. I used a dial indicator to get it running as true as I could get it. I think it was around 15 thou out, better than I thought.

 

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So as not to put too much pressure on the bar I only took a couple of 5 thou cuts of the end of the bar to face the end.

 

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I then drilled the end with a centre drill so that I could steady that end of the bar in the tailstock with a centre while I cut the taper.

 

I have run out of space for more photos, so I will continue this post later.

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I got on yesterday with cutting the second adapter for the spindle taper on my big lathe. . . .

 

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. . . .  while the compound slide was still set up for the taper angle of the inside of the spindle.

 

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I found that by moving the cutting tool in 10 thou and taking a cut. Checking where the maximum diameter of the spindle taper was. Then taking another 10 thou cut and checking where the max diameter was again I could work out how much material I needed to take off with the cross slide. A 10 thou cut equalled 8mm further up the taper.

 

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I'm slowly getting there!

 

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Two outside tapers done. One for 5c collets and one to machine for number 3 Morse taper.

 

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While I was at it, I thought, as an insurance policy, I would cut a third taper, in case I messed up when boring out the centres of the adapters. If it is not needed I could always make it into a spindle adapter for a MT2 taper.

 

Thinking about the bearing for the other end of the headstock spindle I wondered if an old BMW 2002 clutch release bearing would fit. I asked daughter Fay, if she had one in her 02 & CS second hand parts store, she said that she had some new 3-series thrust races that she takes out of clutch kits when she turns the clutch kits in to ones for the 2002 5-speed overdrive gearbox conversions.

 

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This is what she came up with.

 

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I tried it on the gearbox end of the headstock spindle and it seems as if it will work.

 

Hopefully, when I eventually get out into the workshop this morning, I can start boring out the inside of the 5c adapter.

 

Where does the time go when you are enjoying yourself!

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. . .  continued attempts to make my machining a bit more accurate before I do anymore work on the engine.

 

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I finished machining the outside taper, of the third adapter, for the headstock spindle of my big lathe. Hopefully, I won't need any more than these three.

 

I then removed the 3-jaw chuck and set the lathe up for boring out the centre of the first adapter to take the 5c collets.

 

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One thing I have found really annoying is this threaded ring. . . .

 

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With no chuck on the spindle, to hold it tight, it rattles about like glass milk bottles in a metal crate!  I shall have to think of a way to make something to stop the rattling.

 

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I kept boring, until the 5c collet nearly fitted, then machined out only half a thou at a time, until it eventually slid in nicely up to the taper of the collet.

 

Now to cut the taper that closes the collet.

 

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Before I started machining the taper I tried to measure the MT5 to 5c adapter that I had bought, (the one that didn't fit the spindle). Easier said than done with the lack of measuring equipment I have. I knew that the taper of the 5c collet should be 10 degrees and assumed that the angle of the taper should be slightly less to help close up the jaws of the collet. I settled on cranking the compound slide over by just over 9 degrees. I could not check the angle with a 12V light bulb, as I had done as previously with the spindle taper, as I had nothing with which to hold the MT5 to 5c adapter in the lathe.

 

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Well, the collet fits. I will not know if it clamps up until I have made the drawbar. When I originally pushed the spindle adapter in, the two black felt tip pen lines where lined up, so in the machining process it has rotated a bit. Hopefully it won't when it has a drawbar for the collet.

 

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To stop the collet rotating in the adapter it needs a peg, for the slot in the collet. I found a M3 'grub screw' that I think will do. I must have been tired by this time as I couldn't think of a way of holding the adapter to drill and tap the hole! After coming inside and having a cuppa, I realised that there would be no problem in clamping the adapter in the milling machine vice. I will have a go at drilling and tapping for this screw tomorrow, as long as I have an M3 tap. I have ordered the seamless tube, for making the drawbar, that should be with me next week.

 

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The adapter seems to fit fairly tightly, as I had to use a long length of wood down the spindle, and a mallet to get it out.

Edited by Mike Macartney
missing words and photo (see edit history)
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MIke...3mm is the right size. mine using a 3mm dowel pin but I see no reason why a grub screw wouldn't work just as well.

 

jp

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For the threaded ring, is there any way to use a large rubber O ring to stop the rattle?

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The idea was to use some 25mm thick sheet dense black foam that I had to make a disc to screw into the thread of the outer threaded ring. When I went to look for it I could not find it!?! The I remembered about two years ago I gave the last of it to somebody to help them out. I'll have to have a look to see what else I have that may work.

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