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Front Brake Concerns / This Car is Baffling!


Poppy's 55

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So I'm working on this car I just bought. It's a 1955 Buick Century. When it was delivered it ran but barely. I started by getting those issues resolved and now it runs awesome but the front end is kind of a mess. The car was wandering and swaying all over the place.  The Idler arm needed replacement along with the shocks and all the bushings. So my suspension shop ordered all the parts based on a 1955 Buick Century and none of it fit!  Not the bushings, not the idler arm and not the shocks!

 

We ended up tightening up the idler arm and setting the alignment. It's better but it still sways badly at freeway speeds when I hit a transition or dip. 

 

So now I'm thinking maybe the previous owner may have made some other changes up front that I have no idea what is going on.

 

So, I will spend some time researching but next surprise was that the tech told me the front wheel studs were ready to just pull right through the wheel holes! Say what? 

 

So I get home and pop off all the wheel caps and to my surprise the rear drums have studs with lug nuts and the front drums have threaded holes and the wheels are held on with bolts. Is this normal on a 1955 Buick Century?

 

So I need to either replace the wheels with ones with smaller diameter holes (although I've never really seen a wheel advertised with different diameter holes) or maybe advance my plans and convert the front to disk brakes. That has me concerned somewhat though if I order a kit based on thinking my front end is a 1955 Century and it's something else? 

 

Any thoughts, comments or advice would be appreciated.

Edited by Poppy's 55
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IF what they got was '56 stuff, rather than '55 stuff, some might not fit or even be the same.  '55 shocks might not be tube-style shocks, for example.  They can be rebuilt or just might need some new oil in them.  Search out Old-Tank's Buick Restorer thread and see if he doesn't have something in there.

 

NTX5467

Edited by NTX5467 (see edit history)
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Agree with Ben.  Sometimes, tires can LOOK just fine (by the normal "tread depth" determination), but can be having internal issues which can make then have some handling issues.

 

As an example, a car I recently purchased, upon closer inspection after the fact, had some rather deep tread on them.  It drove acceptably well for the type of tires they were.  When I noticed the date code on them, it was 10 years to the week of their production!  A new set of tires made it handle much better, even to the extent of not feeling like it needed new shocks/struts (at only 90K miles).  So, I was very pleased with that significant improvement.

 

For the record, the old tires (date coded 03 08) were Michelin Sears Weatherwise.  The replacements were Michelin Defender T + H.  One of the deciding factors in the purchase, other than what the car was and the mileage, were the "Michelin" tires with good tread on them.  Be that as it may.

 

NTX5467

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15 hours ago, Poppy's 55 said:

So I get home and pop off all the wheel caps and to my surprise the rear drums have studs with lug nuts and the front drums have threaded holes and the wheels are held on with bolts. Is this normal on a 1955 Buick Century?

Normal for 55 all models.  Post some pictures.  Maybe one of our glorious Buck suppliers sent the wrong parts (again).

It would be expected for the rear to have different lug arrangement if converted to open driveshaft...sometimes even a different bolt pattern.

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6 minutes ago, old-tank said:

Normal for 55 all models.  Post some pictures.  Maybe one of our glorious Buck suppliers sent the wrong parts (again).

It would be expected for the rear to have different lug arrangement if converted to open driveshaft...sometimes even a different bolt pattern.

 

Okay, this is making more sense. The fronts are probably correct but I'm pretty sure it has a different rear end. I have to admit (and do freely) I don't know anything about "these" cars. For instance, I have no idea what an "open driveshaft" is? 

 

So here's a picture of the rear end and driveshaft but I will try to get pictures of the front and rear drum/spindles later and post them here.

 

 

20180620_174109.jpg

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Well, The oil pan is not a 55 Buick, the rocker cover is not a 55 Buick, the trans is not a 55 Buick, nor is the rear and rear suspension, the brake unit is not a 55 Buick, Buick replacement parts will not fit your car. Exactly what is it about your car that makes you think it's a 55 Buick?.................Bob

Edited by Bhigdog (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Bhigdog said:

Well, The oil pan is not a 55 Buick, the rocker cover is not a 55 Buick, the trans is not a 55 Buick, nor is the rear and rear suspension, the brake unit is not a 55 Buick, Buick replacement parts will not fit your car. Exactly what is it about your car that makes you think it's a 55 Buick?.................Bob

Jee  Bob.   It's got a 55 body on it.  ?

 

6 hours ago, Poppy's 55 said:

So it looks like this is a new brake booster and double master cylinder. Wouldn't that work for a front disk upgrade? I would want to add a proportioning valve though in the brake line to the fronts though, right?

 

 

20180707_120316.jpg

Yes if you buy the front disc conversion and the correct proportioning valve, you'd be on your way.

 

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2 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

Well, The oil pan is not a 55 Buick, the rocker cover is not a 55 Buick, the trans is not a 55 Buick, nor is the rear and rear suspension, the brake unit is not a 55 Buick, Buick replacement parts will not fit your car. Exactly what is it about your car that makes you think it's a 55 Buick?.................Bob

 

Sorry, I explained all this a few weeks ago. I will add it to my signature.

 

The car has a 401 nailhead and dynaflow from a '64 Wildcat. From what I gathered most guys can pick that motor out from a line-up. Sorry for the confusion.

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Problem is your car is a combination of disparate parts that were never designed to work together. While the newer components were likely an improvement over the older ones mating them together likely makes for a worse total package.

No boubt the differing weights and distibution has altered the steering geometry and suspension. The altered drive train is asking the frame to deal with forces it was not designed for. While your modified 55 may be able to muddle through it,s doubtful it will be an overall improvement over the car as it was orginally designed and built.

If you enjoy the challenge of dealing with the likely ongoing problems and procurement of suitable parts that's one thing. If you wish to have a well designed and dependable piece of equipment that's another. Been there done that...................Bob

 

Edited by Bhigdog (see edit history)
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They did not have Dynaflows in 64, its most likely a ST400.

 

A proportioning valve will do you no good if you don't understand what is going on. The original proportioning block has a 10lb residual valve built into it that keeps pressure in the wheel cylinders. Discs require 2lbs but no more otherwise they drag heavily. You also have to consider the sizes of the hydraulic tubing coming out of the front and rear ports of the master cylinder. If they are different sizes, then the matter cylinder itself is a proportioning valve. Without knowing who made the master cylinder or what it's out of, then you don't know how much its proportioning and what the residual pressure on the valve is.

 

It cascades pretty quickly. 

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I might be wrong, but I seem to recall that ST400/;THM400SP was a mid-year change?  The '64 ST400/THM400SP shirt quadrant was still "D-L" rather than the '65 "PRND21" quadrant.  I'll have to make sure about that, though.  Seems like the '65 Wildcat 401 was the first 401 with a THM400SP?  I'll have to check my HP Books book on the THM400s to verify.  Notice I said "401" and not "425".

 

NTX5467

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I tell you, if I were new to old Buicks this I'd be selling this one after some of this interaction. Why don't we focus on helping the owner with what he can do to make the car better instead of just picking apart the faults? Sure it's a rough situation, but he's already got the car,  let's be constructive.

Edited by wndsofchng06 (see edit history)
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37 minutes ago, wndsofchng06 said:

I tell you, if I were new to old Buicks this I'd be selling this one after some of this interaction.

 

I have done that a lot of times. Usually after a direct impulse purchase. At this moment I am just checking the Forum as I head out for the Cadillac Club Show in Buffalo. I am driving up there in a 7 Series BMW V12 that, from research online, can be a real nightmare without someone's "improvements. Knowing that I made the purchase secure in the idea that I was risking $3500 on a failure of good judgement. If "I am not happy can I keep my loss under $3500?" was a conscious thought in the decision. Experience has shown me that there are always buyers when you first purchase a car, keep it a while and they all crawl into the woodwork. And that is a fact.

 

The car is resale red. That will get you a buyer. Then join your local Buick Club Chapter and use all the resources of the club to buy the best car you can.

Bernie

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18 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

Problem is your car is a combination of disparate parts that were never designed to work together. While the newer components were likely an improvement over the older ones mating them together likely makes for a worse total package.

No boubt the differing weights and distibution has altered the steering geometry and suspension. The altered drive train is asking the frame to deal with forces it was not designed for. While your modified 55 may be able to muddle through it,s doubtful it will be an overall improvement over the car as it was orginally designed and built.

If you enjoy the challenge of dealing with the likely ongoing problems and procurement of suitable parts that's one thing. If you wish to have a well designed and dependable piece of equipment that's another. Been there done that...................Bob

 

What a load of purist bullsh*t

I believe that the best coarse for the OP is to seek PROFESIONAL help in sorting out the handling woes with respect to the fact that its not a modern car and not to expect modern car handling.

To basically tell a bloke his new pride and joy is no good because its not factory standard is not helping him out at all

 

My advice, go to a front end/suspension specialist and talk to them and get it checked out and have a look at some of the facebook buick pages. Late model and engine upgrades are not uncommon on this era buick and despite what some think, they are also worthy cars

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Ttotired said:

What a load of purist bullsh*t

 

Not purest at all. "Pure" has nothing to do with it.

If the car was stock and in good condition he would not have to be seeking the high priced help of a PROFE$$IONAL to get it to operate in a satisfactory manner . It would operate, drive and stop just fine if it was left as designed and manufactured.

But if you are convinced that highly modifying a perfectly good automobile so that now you need the help of a PROFE$$IONAL to get it to perform as it was intended to that's OK with me....................Bob

 

Edited by Bhigdog (see edit history)
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15 hours ago, NTX5467 said:

I might be wrong, but I seem to recall that ST400/;THM400SP was a mid-year change?  The '64 ST400/THM400SP shirt quadrant was still "D-L" rather than the '65 "PRND21" quadrant.  I'll have to make sure about that, though.  Seems like the '65 Wildcat 401 was the first 401 with a THM400SP?  I'll have to check my HP Books book on the THM400s to verify.  Notice I said "401" and not "425".

 

NTX5467

That's definitely a ST400 /THM400 tranny. You can tell by the pan shape and vacuum modulator.

 

"Don't let the Bastards get you down". The car can be made into a great cruiser. I would make sure the front end kit was correct, they could have sent the wrong parts. Rear setup doesn't look bad from the picture. I would make sure its tracking straight though just to make sure. That same type of setup has been used on many modified Buicks.

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3 hours ago, s_hilmoe said:

That's definitely a ST400 /THM400 tranny. You can tell by the pan shape and vacuum modulator.

 

"Don't let the Bastards get you down". The car can be made into a great cruiser. I would make sure the front end kit was correct, they could have sent the wrong parts. Rear setup doesn't look bad from the picture. I would make sure its tracking straight though just to make sure. That same type of setup has been used on many modified Buicks.

 

 Yeah, what he said! Hang in there.

 

  Ben

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On 7/8/2018 at 5:26 AM, wndsofchng06 said:

I tell you, if I were new to old Buicks this I'd be selling this one after some of this interaction. Why don't we focus on helping the owner with what he can do to make the car better instead of just picking apart the faults? Sure it's a rough situation, but he's already got the car,  let's be constructive.

 

16 hours ago, Ttotired said:

What a load of purist bullsh*t

 

14 hours ago, s_hilmoe said:

"Don't let the Bastards get you down". The car can be made into a great cruiser. I would make sure the front end kit was correct, they could have sent the wrong parts. Rear setup doesn't look bad from the picture. I would make sure its tracking straight though just to make sure. That same type of setup has been used on many modified Buicks.

 

11 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

 Yeah, what he said! Hang in there.

 

Thanks for this support guys. Hey, I expected some of this as soon as I found this site. I've been working on cars for over 50 years and have "built" some really awesome ones but never worked on anything like this yet but it doesn't phase me (nor do the naysayers), it just challenges me. I was just hoping for some straightforward answers and not so many opinions. Having said that, there are clearly some very smart and informed folks here.

 

Not to be disrespectful but while I can look at pictures and go to car shows and appreciate fully restored original cars, they are not for me in any way. I'm not very interested in driving around in my grandfathers old Buick. I was looking for a resto-mod and I found one. Now I need to find ways to get it right. This just doesn't seem to be the place to help.

 

I have found some other more helpful forums so I'm good.

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On 7/6/2018 at 8:05 PM, Poppy's 55 said:

So I'm working on this car I just bought. It's a 1955 Buick Century. When it was delivered it ran but barely. I started by getting those issues resolved and now it runs awesome but the front end is kind of a mess. The car was wandering and swaying all over the place.  The Idler arm needed replacement along with the shocks and all the bushings. So my suspension shop ordered all the parts based on a 1955 Buick Century and none of it fit!  Not the bushings, not the idler arm and not the shocks!

 

We ended up tightening up the idler arm and setting the alignment. It's better but it still sways badly at freeway speeds when I hit a transition or dip. 

 

So now I'm thinking maybe the previous owner may have made some other changes up front that I have no idea what is going on.

 

So, I will spend some time researching but next surprise was that the tech told me the front wheel studs were ready to just pull right through the wheel holes! Say what? 

 

So I get home and pop off all the wheel caps and to my surprise the rear drums have studs with lug nuts and the front drums have threaded holes and the wheels are held on with bolts. Is this normal on a 1955 Buick Century?

 

So I need to either replace the wheels with ones with smaller diameter holes (although I've never really seen a wheel advertised with different diameter holes) or maybe advance my plans and convert the front to disk brakes. That has me concerned somewhat though if I order a kit based on thinking my front end is a 1955 Century and it's something else? 

 

Any thoughts, comments or advice would be appreciated.

 

1. The rear wheel/drum set up probably is lug nut and stud because the rear axle has been replaced to a open drive shaft.

2. The front drum/wheel set up will probably be the threaded lug nut(bolt type) to secure the wheel

3.  Concerning the front end.  Looks to be stock.  Shocks/link kits/bushing are available. Can always pull a shock and check manufacture/part# for new replacements. 

4.  Alignment, assure ball joints and control arms are in good shape. No play.   Assure the wheel bearings are repacked with new grease/seals.  Assure the castle nut is torqued to what the manual  states.  Loose bearings will create a wander while driving(per some reading of an old Hemmings article)

5.  When the alignment is done, was it a thrust angle or simply set the toe and let it go?  From my dealings with my 60, the toe was out.  Created all kinds of nonsense with pull and wander.  I used the old four point string trick to correct the toe.  Problem solved. 

6. Check your tires as others have stated. 

7.  As a side note, check the angle of the drive shaft for rear end.  Assure who ever set it up did not create some odd ball angle that will prove to vibrate at speed. 

 

Keep at it.  You will get all the bugs out.  Lord knows my 54 was loaded with bugs created by "a rebuilder" in VA.   Unfortunately the "rebuilder"  believed nailheads receive rebuilds like a Chevy block.                   

 

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1 hour ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

 Chris, if the front suspension is original, no ball joints. Still kingpins.

 

  Poppy at least whoever did the mods stayed with A Buick power train. 

 

 Don't run off and leave us. We all are not negative.  Come down just a little to the modified forum.

 

  Ben

 

Yes, sorry, Kingpins.  Been a while for me to crawl under my 54.  Tinkering with a 60 at the moment.  Kingpins....another pain in the arse in a different form.  Make sure these a tight. 

 

Oh yes,  please keep at it Poppy.  Eventually the list of bugs is squashed and you simply keep it shiny.  You drive the pants off of it.   The memory of all the bug fixes fads with each passing trouble free mile.  You will have them I assure you!    Keep us posted! 

Edited by avgwarhawk (see edit history)
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Take it to hotrod builder who will probably say he would have done it differently, but just get his opinion if it is workable and safe.  When you get the front suspension sorted out which appears to be stock 1955, do a 4 wheel alignment.

A 'build sheet' from the original builder would have been useful, but it can be figured out.

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Thanks again guys. I'm not leaving and I probably should have posted this in the Modified section to begin with.

 

Right now the car is definitely a bunch of work sorting things out and repairing things as I find them but I am definitely not dissuaded. 

 

Today I ordered a Wilwood front disk brake conversion kit, which will also resolve my lug bolt versus lug nut issue, the bushings and new end links for the sway bar, a few other small items AND, as I was working under the front end yesterday I got dripped on by what I thought was water tight radiator. NOT! I found a spot that had been previously soldered was breaking down. The "patch" just fell right off. So, I pulled the radiator and then found a few spots in the fins that had obviously been oozing for some time. I figured it would be no problem so off I went this morning to my local radiator repair shop and he tells me he can't help me with it. Doesn't work on these old things anymore. Tried another place and they said the same thing. Something about the construction, the type of fins or coils or something. So, after a couple hours of online research I bought a direct fit unit from a place in NY. It's all aluminum and should do the trick.

 

Sure am glad I have a very understanding and supportive wife! These expenses are a little harder to swallow since we retired. 

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If you can, please post source and part numbers of your replacements and for sure tell how it worked out.  And don't throw the old parts away unless completely  not serviceable...they be of some value to others:  front drums, bearings if drums are out of specs, etc. 

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8 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

Keep at it.  You will get all the bugs out.  Lord knows my 54 was loaded with bugs created by "a rebuilder" in VA. 

 

Paul - what he said ^ :)  For what it's worth my 55 has been on the road for 35 years and there are still minor bugs that crop up to chase  - a new rattle or squeak on an interstate expansion joint where the car was rattle free, a heater switch that gets flaky, a Ranco valve that gets stuck.  Right now am replacing all the wheel cylinders, a master cylinder kit, stop light switch, brake shoes and hoses.  Could have sworn I just did that not too long ago and looked in my record book and Holy Christmas it was 18 years ago.  Whoops.

 

It took me about 10 years to undo all the poor man fixes my grandfather did to keep this "stock" car going on his budget (like packing concrete and window screen around a cracked exhaust manifild - hey it worked but what a PITA to get apart), and get it reliable - although in the early 80s it was my only ride for 4 years, year round, and I just kept up with things and learned. It wasn't until I rebuilt all the suspension components, steering, brakes that the car felt road solid; the accessories (fuel pump, regulator, water pump, radiator, generator) that it became more reliable, some budget to carry spare parts,  and more recently after radial tires, transmission, engine rebuilds and adding AC the car really became relaxing and rather spirited to drive.  Life got in the way as they say causing my incremental restoration but the car has been licensed and in service every year since April of 83.  Rebuilding things for the second or third time over the vehicles life gets easier and quicker. 

 

9 hours ago, Poppy's 55 said:

Not to be disrespectful but while I can look at pictures and go to car shows and appreciate fully restored original cars, they are not for me in any way. I'm not very interested in driving around in my grandfathers old Buick. I was looking for a resto-mod and I found one. Now I need to find ways to get it right. This just doesn't seem to be the place to help.

 

I have found some other more helpful forums so I'm good.

 

You have a nice cruiser with a mix of newer parts.  It is absolutely solvable. You will get it up the power curve.   Recommend going through a list of needs and wants, get a budgetary planning number together for yearly financials to help gauge what commitment you want to put into it to avoid potential discouragement.  Helped me.  You have some good advice to get a professional "eyes on target" assessment and make sure it's safe.  You'll make it your tasteful own and you'll keep finding "stuff" along the way - that happens - if you're handy that's where we can help. The folks on this forum really are a deep bench of accurate knowledge and innovation  - keep 'em rolling.

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Poppy, You car is TOO COOL, I have been wanting to do a driveline and suspension upgrade to my old 56 Special for quite some time. If I had your car, since the drivetrain and rear suspension have all ready been upgraded why not do the COMPLETE front end too? That would only enhance the value and get it steering and stopping like it should. I believe a Mustang ll front end with a power rack and pinion and disc brake conversion is would be the answer to your problems!!!!…..Ed

Edited by Roadhog1951 (see edit history)
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Another example of why a person should keep a log book of and\y and all modifications.  It should stay in the glove compartment at all times.  In this case the new owner would know what he was working with and what parts to order.  If Poppy starts one now it will help him when/if his memory starts to get fuzzy.

Happy motoring.

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So a couple of updates.

 

I ordered my replacement radiator from Wizard Cooling and it's on the way. Looks like a great improvement over the old factory unit. This version also has a trans cooler in the bottom tank. My current transmission has no cooler that I can see so I will figure out how to take advantage of this.

 

I started the front brake conversion. The Wilwood kit seems pretty straightforward. There was a spec problem though as the lugs in one of the rotors were pressed in incorrectly resulting in the inability to fit the provided 0.20" spacer over the lugs. They are sending out a replacement. The kit part number from Summit is: WIL-140-12321. 

 

In picture form .. from here to here today.

 

wizard cooling 1955 buick century direct fit aluminum radiator.jpg

20180711_134723.jpg

20180712_142722.jpg

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