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I have just returned from the 2018 Denver National Meet. The Mile High Chapter did an outstanding job of putting on their first National Meet. There were nothing but smiles to be seen in Denver .

Some highlights would be a great selection of 1929 models, a very decent selection of prewar cars and very early cars to boot. The folks form Denver ran a meet with almost military precision. The show field was well organized and with help of some prewar guys, they were able to layout prewar  altogether, chronological parking. This has been an issue for way too long and this test of the feasibility of doing it was most successful. There were a few small glitches in the judging process by using it, but nothing that should not be able to be resolved going forward. Dave Wojahn and his crew got the job done in fine order. I was Head Judge for this meet, and so I could not get the time to go on any tours, so I would leave any comments about tours to others.

There have been reference to what went on during the membership meeting and the BOD Meeting, and I would ask all to defer comments on that until the minutes are published.

Alan Oldfiled was reelected President , there was a tie vote for Vice President. (another election to be held when a full Board is present) Bob Saffrit was elected Treasurer, and I have the impossible job of replacing John DeFiore as Secretary.

Looking forward to Pete Phillips and his crew running next year's Meet in Oklahoma. 

Edited by Jack Welch
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31 minutes ago, Jack Welch said:

The show field was well organized and with help of some prewar guys, they were able to layout prewar  altogether, chronological parking. This has been an issue for way too long and this test of the feasibility of doing it was most successful.

Jack,

     Thank you, I agree; I am pleased that you recognized that the all-together parking went so well.  I only hope that a poll of attendees was (or will be) taken so the BCA Meet Committee can confirm that all-together parking should continue for future meets.

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9 minutes ago, Jack Welch said:

Mark: No poll of attendees was taken, but the host Chapter indicated that they did receive many positive remarks. (were they all from you? LOL) 

No, but even John Steed admitted at the membership meeting that the impact on judging was much less than he expected. 

The meet committee should be able to fairly poll the attendees after the fact.  And I expect that those who brought prewar cars will be most favorable.  

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My judging team and I for Class A and B asked (polled) all the participants whose cars were to be judged, those for display and even the modified cars that agreed to be included in this arrangement. Their opinions varied from "we loved it" to "this has been great" as well as "boy, this made great sense". We also asked any spectators what they thought about the arrangement. Their comments were all similar to the participants and all positive.

The judging was not effected in the least for us (A and B). I could understand about having to back track to find the modified cars for their judging.   

 My sincere thanks to all who helped make this a reality.

 Larry

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I agree, wonderful meet. The prewar parking was great! I heard good responses form all , including the ladies that liked the ability to see the changes thru the years ( the report from my sweetheart). Was great to see a lot of rides given to many people in a 1908 2 cylinder Buick. If they didn't have all the seats filled for a ride around the parking lot, they found someone to eagerly clime in.

The tour to the Rambler ranch was amazing- I wasn't expecting a private car collection of 180 or so inside and another 300 over acres of land with free reign to explore. I was a kid in a candy store. I did attend the membership and board meetings. Some surprises I didn't know were happening, but all seems to be for the health of the club.

 Steve

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My only problem with all together parking at THIS meet was that there were no 38's....??... I'll have to do something about that for OKC....

 

Great job by all involved. We had great fun

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Its a small thing ............I think the signage was the best I have seen in a long time.

You show up at a strange place and hope there will be signs telling you where things are and how to get there and this meet had great sign.

The weather was great and we saw many new cars........the only '39 I saw was a professional car

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The signage was fantastic!  Far superior to my signage in Springfield, for sure.

The "military precision" comment above was spot on. I know there were issues, there always are, but they were on top of everything.

The bright yellow vests worn by all volunteers were fantastic, functional, and flexible. These were borrowed, but the NMC should look into purchasing a set of 20-30 of these for use at every meet. They will all fit in a medium or large flat rate box and were invaluable for guests. More economical than finding a solution every year.

 

Lots of special touches, and I hope someone will post a photo, but the meet logo shining on the floor of the hotel lobby was just a superb detail.

 

Show field was HUGE...too bad there weren't 400 cars to fill it up!
I enjoyed the chronological parking and hope the Pre-War Division will continue to assist with this setup. I did hear a single complaint from a member who didn't want to have to move his car again to the showfield. Something about might as well go ahead and put it back in the trailer.

Hospitality was fantastic, as usual, thanks to Bruce and Shar.  Okay, thanks to Shar Kile!  :)

 

Kim and I enjoyed our stay in Lone Tree very much, especially the small town friendliness of the staff, most notably from the shuttle driver who gave us a pro bono tour of the entire area when all we asked for was a ride to Chipotle. (We didn't eat at Chipotle...too many unique fantastic dining options!)

 

Edited by bhclark
removed "new" (see edit history)
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Well, I was told there is a new Pre-War Division and I was told to list it in the August Bugle with the listing of other divisions, so someone please clear up the confusion. I'm just the scribe, and I don't want to be involved in the middle of an argument about which Pre-War Division is the correct one, I just want to know what to list in the magazine.

Pete Phillips

 

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There is only one.

There was a dispute over who might be the director.

Jack Gerstkemper presented a petition to be appointed to put together a committee to draft by-laws for the Division so that a director could be duly elected.  There were apparently no existing provisions and the existing membership "roster" was outdated.

So, Jack is the contact for the Division in the Bugle and for people to contact requesting to join or to confirm membership.  (confusion as to "new" because there recently hasn't been a listing for Pre-war in the Bugle)

 

Sorry for the confusion.

 

Again, for further clarification, please stand by for the general membership meeting minutes to be transcribed and posted to the BCA website.  Thanks to John D for his dedication and thoroughness in this endeavor.

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While I am not a member of the Pre-War Division, I am quite aware of who has been running it for some time. I guess there are more controversies that cropped up at Denver than I was aware of. Can someone explain how Mark Shaw was removed based on someone who has not been a member of a Division in a long time coming up with a petition. Officers of the club have recently had contact with Mark Shaw, who was identified as the Director of the Pre-War Division, regarding parking issues and during all of the discussion on the forum those officers clearly acknowledged that Mark was acting in that capacity. None of those sometime testy discussions involved any discussion that Mark was not the Director of the Pre-War Division. I am as confused by this information as I was by the other recent news.  

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9 hours ago, bhclark said:

There is only one.

There was a dispute over who might be the director.

Jack Gerstkemper presented a petition to be appointed to put together a committee to draft by-laws for the Division so that a director could be duly elected.  There were apparently no existing provisions and the existing membership "roster" was outdated.

So, Jack is the contact for the Division in the Bugle and for people to contact requesting to join or to confirm membership.  (confusion as to "new" because there recently hasn't been a listing for Pre-war in the Bugle)

 

Sorry for the confusion.

 

Again, for further clarification, please stand by for the general membership meeting minutes to be transcribed and posted to the BCA website.  Thanks to John D for his dedication and thoroughness in this endeavor.

Matt: :as I remember the discussion, the current roster and procedures of the Prewar Division were outdated as per BCA requirements, and Jack Gerstkemper was put in charge of providing the reorganization. This will lead to an election of officers.

Most of the discussion regarding National Meet parking was with myself and John Steed. That conversation was primarily with Mark Shaw , who represented himself as head of the prewar Division. John and I were acting as members of the National Meet Committee , not as Club officers. I know this is just nitpicking a bit, but I am trying to put it in perspective. It was not up to John or I to determine if Mark was head of the Prewar Division or not at that time. He indicated that he was, and the job got done. Hopefully after the Prewar Division elections the matter will be sorted out.

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1 hour ago, Jack Welch said:

Matt: :as I remember the discussion, the current roster and procedures of the Prewar Division were outdated as per BCA requirements, and Jack Gerstkemper was put in charge of providing the reorganization. This will lead to an election of officers.

 

 

I am trying to understand this issue. Can you explain how the "current roster and procedures of the Prewar Division were outdated as per BCA requirements". I am trying to understand what that means. Can you explain what was wrong with the current procedures? From all of the information that I have received second hand, this statement is confusing to me.

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The 2016 membership roster is no more outdated than the BCA roster.  During that board meeting, Mike Book actually confirmed that the Reatta Division is the only BCA division that reports their membership numbers each and every year, so the PWD is no more out of date than others.  The BCA division requirements were met to create the division and have not changed.    

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1 hour ago, MCHinson said:

 

I am trying to understand this issue. Can you explain how the "current roster and procedures of the Prewar Division were outdated as per BCA requirements". I am trying to understand what that means. Can you explain what was wrong with the current procedures? From all of the information that I have received second hand, this statement is confusing to me.

 No, I was a member  in attendance during the meeting and posted what I remember hearing , as has been said several times , it should be clearer once minutes have been published , rather than relying on one's memory and hearing in a crowded room. I have not ever been a member of the Prewar Division , so I have no inside info to share.

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From my perspective, I cannot wait to see these minutes. Someone needs to  explain what seems to amounts to an improper presentation to the board by a handful of members.  Larry DiBarry, myself and Brian Heil serve as active members and Region Coordinators along with several others (who are less active) had been continuing to keep the Division active and I certainly would not consider it inactive.  None of use seem to have been consulted before the board decided to act on this "petition".  Due to the nature of these cars, some can take longer tours, some only day trips.  For example, most of my After tours, have been in a modern car, but these are also welcome.  The name of the game- enjoy a slow pace tour and visit some "quirky" places, and we do not need a fancy structure or organization (so people can possibly nit-pick).

 

John

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One thing that does seems to be running through these threads is name calling and false statements about current and past BOD members, it is some of the most irresponsible and rude behavior I have ever seen on a forum. A forum is to discuss pertinent issues, and does not give license to say anything you want about BCA Members wether they be BOD members, judges or just members art large. You can disagree with people and there are ways to do that. To not show respect to people that you do not even know is outrageous. I can not imagine what people from outside the BCA must think when they see this drivel. Some of it from anonymous posters. 

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Jack’s last point is what has me most concerned.  Once again, we are airing the BCA’s issues on a site that is not closed to BCA members.  There’s potential issues of opinions being expressed related to the topic coming from those who have no skin in the game to the potential impact on Buick enthusiasts who are not presently BCA members.

 

Too much drama too public.

 

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Seems to me us folks that have attended the BCA pre-war tours and enjoyed the tours of the past immensely are still here and in charge of if, and where we are touring, if we tour at all at . Sometimes there is just not enough interest in some areas of the country to do so. We are a tight group and all of us know one another. Most would never consider touring a 90 or 100 plus year old vehicle and that makes our little group of daredevils unique and fun. As far as I'm concerned, we that have done the organizing will continue to do so as we see fit and I'm going to follow them and lead when they tell me, "But Dandy Dave, your the oldest car on the tour." And that's that. Dandy Dave!    

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I started this thread to give members a chance to post about the Denver National, It is disappointing that nothing here has mentioned, the great job the Denver folks did, the tours attended, the beautiful cars in attendance. etc

 

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Well, I"ll say it: The Denver meet organizers did an excellent job of organizing and running the meet. My only disappointment was the low attendance of cars. The Rambler Ranch tour was absolutely fabulous.

 

And I"ll also come out and say that I'm not a fan of "all-together parking" on Saturday morning, and this is why (go ahead and attack me, I don't care): I had to judge the Archival (unrestored) cars. Our team had 23 cars to judge, and they were parked all over the lot, from one end to the other.  My team was out there for more than five and a half hours, if you count our lunch break. The Archival class includes unrestored cars from 1903 up to the early 1990s. Some of the Pre-War cars we had to judge were parked at the far end of the show field with the other Archival cars. But others were parked at the very far other end of the lot with the other Pre-War cars. I judged the chassis, so in addition to all of the walking around, I had to get up and down from the pavement about 100 times (once in the front, once in the rear and twice on the sides of each car--that's damned near 100 times). The walking from one end of the lot to the other, and then up and down the rows of Pre-War cars pretty well finished me off that day on top of all the getting up and down on my knees. Luckily, we didn't have any 80-year-olds on our judging team this time, but if we had, they probably would have given out before it was all over. I don't know about you, but I don't want to see one of our members get a heart attack or heat stroke or fall onto the pavement during the judging, and that's why each judging class should be parked together on Saturday morning. The rest of the meet, I have no problem with all-together parking, but I do not support or condone it on Saturday morning during the judging.  Do one of you all-together parking people want to drive the ambulance on Saturday morning? I am serious. Our club has older members and if you take a look at the judges during the Saturday a.m. judge's breakfast, I"ll wager that the average age is about 75.

That's why I don't like "all-together" parking on Saturday morning. And next year in Oklahoma, it's not going to be 72 degrees outside like it was for most of the day in Denver.

 

Okay, now you guys can go ahead and attack me, but as I said, I don't care and I don't want the sudden death or injury of one of our judges on my conscience.

 

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

Leonard, Texas

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I would like everyone to know that I had a great time in Denver this is my third meet.  Portland Oregon for a look then traveled to Brookfield Wisconsin signed up and tried judging it was fun.

  Then the Denver meet, a yellow vest was usually in sight if you had any questions this is a big help when you are not familiar with an area.  Then the 1908 Buick running around full of people this will bring some enthusiasm for the next generation.   I also judged with a great group had a blast I am hooked now.  To everyone that was in Denver it was great to meet you and enjoy the Buicks.  I want to be sure that the Denver group knows that they did a great job!   

Steve

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10 hours ago, Pete Phillips said:

Well, I"ll say it: The Denver meet organizers did an excellent job of organizing and running the meet. My only disappointment was the low attendance of cars. The Rambler Ranch tour was absolutely fabulous.

 

And I"ll also come out and say that I'm not a fan of "all-together parking" on Saturday morning, and this is why (go ahead and attack me, I don't care): I had to judge the Archival (unrestored) cars. Our team had 23 cars to judge, and they were parked all over the lot, from one end to the other.  My team was out there for more than five and a half hours, if you count our lunch break. The Archival class includes unrestored cars from 1903 up to the early 1990s. Some of the Pre-War cars we had to judge were parked at the far end of the show field with the other Archival cars. But others were parked at the very far other end of the lot with the other Pre-War cars. I judged the chassis, so in addition to all of the walking around, I had to get up and down from the pavement about 100 times (once in the front, once in the rear and twice on the sides of each car--that's damned near 100 times). The walking from one end of the lot to the other, and then up and down the rows of Pre-War cars pretty well finished me off that day on top of all the getting up and down on my knees. Luckily, we didn't have any 80-year-olds on our judging team this time, but if we had, they probably would have given out before it was all over. I don't know about you, but I don't want to see one of our members get a heart attack or heat stroke or fall onto the pavement during the judging, and that's why each judging class should be parked together on Saturday morning. The rest of the meet, I have no problem with all-together parking, but I do not support or condone it on Saturday morning during the judging.  Do one of you all-together parking people want to drive the ambulance on Saturday morning? I am serious. Our club has older members and if you take a look at the judges during the Saturday a.m. judge's breakfast, I"ll wager that the average age is about 75.

That's why I don't like "all-together" parking on Saturday morning. And next year in Oklahoma, it's not going to be 72 degrees outside like it was for most of the day in Denver.

 

Okay, now you guys can go ahead and attack me, but as I said, I don't care and I don't want the sudden death or injury of one of our judges on my conscience.

 

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

Leonard, Texas

Pete: This was a test for all together parking. One of the problems we did encounter was the size of the Archival Class. As Head judge, I will take the responsibility for part of your problem. I some how thought I I think I missed seeing one of Roy's class breakdown sheets) we had six cars in your class, when in fact we had 23. We have a year to work out details before next year's Meet to resolve this problem. One thought John Steed and I had was splitting the archival in to more than one class. Again, luckily we have a year to come up with a solution. You are totally  correct about heat and age of our membership. The other classes had 7 to 9 cars and I had to remove a judge from the field due to heat and altitude issues.

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3 hours ago, Jack Welch said:

Pete: This was a test for all together parking. One of the problems we did encounter was the size of the Archival Class. As Head judge, I will take the responsibility for part of your problem. I some how thought I I think I missed seeing one of Roy's class breakdown sheets) we had six cars in your class, when in fact we had 23. We have a year to work out details before next year's Meet to resolve this problem. One thought John Steed and I had was splitting the archival in to more than one class. Again, luckily we have a year to come up with a solution. You are totally  correct about heat and age of our membership. The other classes had 7 to 9 cars and I had to remove a judge from the field due to heat and altitude issues.

Anyone who has modified a car knows that when you change one thing you create 3 new problems...that applies here also!

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4 hours ago, Jack Welch said:

Our team had 23 cars to judge, and they were parked all over the lot, from one end to the other.

Pete,

     No attack, just a clarification.  All the prewar cars were parked in just one isle at one end of the show field.  Therefore, your problem was not caused by the prewar parking arrangements.  

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"No attack, just a clarification.  All the prewar cars were parked in just one isle at one end of the show field.  Therefore, your problem was not caused by the prewar parking arrangements"

Not true. I judged them. You did not. We had Pre-War cars at one end of the lot and at the other end of the lot. Read my thread again.

Pete

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18 hours ago, Pete Phillips said:

You did not. We had Pre-War cars at one end of the lot and at the other end of the lot. Read my thread again.

Pete,

     Larry Schramm & I only marked the first isle for chronological parking.  Any prewar cars parked outside the first isle were parked according to judging class and were not parked chronologically.  Therefore, you cannot blame the prewar parking arrangements for your judging problems. 

 

Jack Welch accepted responsibility above when he posted:  "As Head judge, I will take the responsibility for part of your problem. I some how thought I I think I missed seeing one of Roy's class breakdown sheets) we had six cars in your class, when in fact we had 23."

Edited by Mark Shaw (see edit history)
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Now I’m curious.  I haven’t judged Archival Class recently (since the change was made).  Is it that rigorous now?  I haven’t gotten down on a knee on all four sides judging chassis for 400 point (maybe I’m at fault, but we’ve always been told not to kill the car).  23 cars in 5 hours suggests in the range of 12 minutes per car (taking off half an hour for lunch).  Again, judging school always suggested 5-10 minutes per car in the 400 point.

 

I’m not suggesting you didn’t go through anything physically demanding.  I judged Archival in Bellevue where they were parked by year and we really enjoyed it...I think U1 ended around 1970 or in the 70s that year.  Honestly I believe we need to re-assess judging and how we do in the the BCA when I hear of issues like this.  Either we need to recruit more people to judge, or we need to somehow get fewer cars to be judged if the classes get too large to handle.  If we spend no more than 10 minutes per car, and have no more than 10 cars in a class, judging teams should be off the show field well before noon.  They can then enjoy lunch and if they so desire, actually look at the rest of the assembled show field before it dissipates.

 

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How many judges are there?  Would they fit in a golf cart?  I'm serious.  Maybe we can have it both ways if there is someone at future meets that can find someone local to donate usage of a golf cart for a day.  If not, then square one, but there are a lot of golf carts around.  Just something to think about. 

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lancemb,

 

There are always rental golf carts used at a National Meet, as long as I have been a member.  Only, one more seems need to shuttle archival judges between areas or another set of judges, and divide cars by age.

 

John 

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1 hour ago, jscheib said:

lancemb,

 

There are always rental golf carts used at a National Meet, as long as I have been a member.

 

John 

This seems like a very easy problem to solve then!  After all, the problems being described are pretty much exactly why golf carts exist at golf courses.

Edited by lancemb (see edit history)
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15 hours ago, lancemb said:

How many judges are there?  Would they fit in a golf cart?  I'm serious.  Maybe we can have it both ways if there is someone at future meets that can find someone local to donate usage of a golf cart for a day.  If not, then square one, but there are a lot of golf carts around.  Just something to think about. 

There were well over 50 judges at Denver. We had the use of at least 4 golf carts. Three of those were used to shuttle members to and from the show filed . Many of our members have reached an age where, they need walking assists, such as canes, walkers, electric carts, etc. I had a dedicated cart for judging as head judge. I used this to respond to judging issues on the show field, as well as delivering water to judging teams and show participants. When I did not need it for  those functions, it was used for shuttle service. Bottom line is that golf carts are very handy and very expensive.

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7 hours ago, Jack Welch said:

There were well over 50 judges at Denver. We had the use of at least 4 golf carts. Three of those were used to shuttle members to and from the show filed . Many of our members have reached an age where, they need walking assists, such as canes, walkers, electric carts, etc. I had a dedicated cart for judging as head judge. I used this to respond to judging issues on the show field, as well as delivering water to judging teams and show participants. When I did not need it for  those functions, it was used for shuttle service. Bottom line is that golf carts are very handy and very expensive.

Holy cow!  I had no idea there were so many judges.  Is that normal?  The plot thickens a bit.  Nonetheless, I don't imagine that they all would need a cart.  Maybe we're only a couple carts shy.

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7 hours ago, lancemb said:

Holy cow!  I had no idea there were so many judges.  Is that normal?  The plot thickens a bit.  Nonetheless, I don't imagine that they all would need a cart.  Maybe we're only a couple carts shy.

 

50 seems a bit low but it varies by how many registrants we have. Denver was a smaller show, thus less registrants, less cars and less judges. Assume you have a team of 4 or 5 for each class and there are over 10 classes and some classes get split into 2 or 3 so assume 15+ classes,...

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