1940 76C Reconstruct

[kgreen]

Next up is fitting the door skins which are replacement, removed from the doors from a similar 2-door GM body, reportedly from lower level marque.  I think I was told the doors might have been removed from a '40 Cadillac but even so, I am not expecting much, if any devaluation in this Buick.  Just kidding Cad guys/gals!

 

Shape templates were constructed to assist fitting the door skin.  This included a guide at the top of the door at the door glass opening to ensure the correct shape and symmetry between the left and right side of the car.

 

We had to verify the correct and symmetrical shape of the entire side of the car so forms were made to guide both the door skin alignment and the new door post installation.  I had received necessary dimensions from two other 76C owners, Terry Boyce and Anderson Pearson; thanks guys.  We applied the dimensions to the centerline of the car to be certain that the body stayed symmetrical, not just assuring the width was correct.

 

The old door skin was removed just below the belt line crease.

 

The replacement door skin was then fitted back on the door checking for gaps on three sides.  Some adjustment was still required after these photos were taken, and corrected by the weld thickness along the edge of the door.

 

 

The crimped lap on the back side of the door frame was retained with the new weld following the edge of the door.  When welding is complete and ground smooth, the door will appear as original with the rounded edge and the overlapped crimp on the backside of the door.  As may be seen in some of these photos, the car body was heavily braced to retain its original shape.  The original shape was verified by dimension and with the convertible top fully closed and latched into position.  The body had previously been returned to the frame with new body mounts, tightened and re-verified as noted in the previous September 18th post.  Next up is replacement of the rear door jambs.

[JohnD1956]

@kgreen Meticulous work!  You have a lot more patience than I.  This is gonna be Buickful when finished.  Hope I get a chance to see it in person!

[Guest]

Hey Ken

   Its my pleasure to help where I can. That car is a classic in my book owned by a class act! Luck to ya buddy! Cant wait 4 a ride. Greg J.

[lancemb]

Incredible workmanship.  This will be a very special Roadmaster!

[Pilgrim65]

Great to follow and very impressive workmanship , reminds me of the top coach builders of pre ww2 

looking forward to seeing her complete

cheers 

[kgreen]

On 12/5/2018 at 7:16 PM, JohnD1956 said:

@kgreen Meticulous work!  You have a lot more patience than I.  This is gonna be Buickful when finished.  Hope I get a chance to see it in person!

Thanks John, patience indeed. I have a hard time reading your 2500 in 2018 challenge thread without a great feeling of envy. I’d thoroughly enjoy the drive up to visit and show you the car. I’m hoping to visit some very special friends and show at the old Stowe meet that the VAE holds every year in the VT mountains. That would absolutely require a stop over in your neighborhood. Along with my dad, the  good folks up their nurtured me in this hobby when I was in high school. 

[kgreen]

On 12/5/2018 at 11:20 PM, 2carb40 said:

Hey Ken

   Its my pleasure to help where I can. That car is a classic in my book owned by a class act! Luck to ya buddy! Cant wait 4 a ride. Greg J.

How about I bring a couple fedoras and a camera for trip around your beautiful state!  I ride you drive in style!

[kgreen]

6 hours ago, lancemb said:

Incredible workmanship.  This will be a very special Roadmaster!

I’m certain to know every inch of it too!  Thanks Lance. 

[kgreen]

4 hours ago, Pilgrim65 said:

Great to follow and very impressive workmanship , reminds me of the top coach builders of pre ww2 

looking forward to seeing her complete

cheers 

Thanks Pilgrim. I’ve got to give credit to Dan and especially his son Josh who has taken a special interest in this project. Their metal working skills impress the heck out of me. Since replacing this thread as I lost the original, my replacement write up might not have included the trip up and around the American Midwest to drop the car with Dan. That trip was a blast and included visits to people helping me with this car plus the Brookfield Nationals. A project this extensive could not have come this far without the Buick community helping. 

 

Enjoy your winter in Cypress. I hope you are able to carry your hobby with there. 

[kgreen]

I should offer a corrective thought to the rocker adjustment. The replacement panel looks as though the car required about a half inch adjustment in width. Not so. The adjustment required was a wedge of about 1/8 inches to zero inches. Sort of like a little pie cut. The repair was made by cutting material out of the bottom of the rocker to make a ½- inch gap. This allowed two but welds for better heat control while welding. It was also quicker than attempting to fill a gap that ranged up to 1/8 inches wide. 

[JohnD1956]

2 hours ago, kgreen said:

I’m hoping to visit some very special friends and show at the old Stowe meet that the VAE holds every year in the VT mountains.

 

Yes!  Visit indeed!  I have always heard that is a awesome event.  But I've never been to it.  Maybe we could caravan to it together?  I might have a vehicle around here that could make the trip.  

[Pilgrim65]

3 hours ago, kgreen said:

Thanks Pilgrim. I’ve got to give credit to Dan and especially his son Josh who has taken a special interest in this project. Their metal working skills impress the heck out of me. Since replacing this thread as I lost the original, my replacement write up might not have included the trip up and around the American Midwest to drop the car with Dan. That trip was a blast and included visits to people helping me with this car plus the Brookfield Nationals. A project this extensive could not have come this far without the Buick community helping. 

 

Enjoy your winter in Cypress. I hope you are able to carry your hobby with there. 

Thanks Ken 

actually wife insists I spend winter in Uk , but in Cyprus now for a week extending car port to keep Ruby cosy ,she’s a bit longer than my juke, which has been relegated to outside with cover  😁

and your right enjoying my hobby , cheers 

[kgreen]

With a little help from my friends...

 

@allcars  Thanks to Terry, I've come into the best thing possible for the continued reconstruction of my 76C; another 76C!  This one came out of Central Florida as a part of a project once owned by a Buick man.  The guy I purchased this car from a guy that bought it two years ago with the intention of restoring it.  It sat in a body shop that specialized in filler-based restoration.  Even a healthy application of Bondo couldn't fix this car.  He bailed on the project and under pressure from the body shop for the lack of continued indoor storage, sold the car with lot's of additional parts.  When I asked who he bought the car from, for the purpose of asking for history and owner-related stories, I was told that the Buick man had more than likely passed.

 

Here it is, about to be pulled from the shop.  It is covered with filler dust from other restorations in the guys shop.  It was originally Casino beige (556) with a red leather interior.

 

The top frame, pneumatic cylinders and dash valve was intact. 

 

Someone had welded the fenders onto the car, then smoothed over the weld.  

 

The rockers are completely rusted.  The cowl reinforcement brace located beside the A pillar, along with the floor pans and tool tray are rusted significantly.  One of the front fenders has rust though at the headlight brow suggesting the car spend winters in the north on salty roads.  I have no idea when it was last registered or driven, but the car did come with a FL title.  Terry researched the engine number and determined the car has the correct engine. 

 

The extra parts include rechromed front and rear bumpers and bumper guards, plastic dash knobs, several boxes of new spark plugs, body rubber, NOS emergency brake cable, starter solenoid, trunk hinges, turn signal plastic and letters and other small parts not yet inventoried.  I also have what appears to be an NOS right rear fender.  Repairing the one that came with my car would have been a monumental task.  It also appears that one of the earlier PO's parted out other '40 models Roadmaster models and included extra parts as part of the deal.  Of significant interest to me is the interior and exterior windshield trim which I am missing and the door glass frames that are in very good condition, though needing to be chromed.  My door glass frames have severe rust through and the best quote I got to re-fabricate these was some near $700 for the pair.

Edited December 10, 2018 by kgreen
typo (see edit history)

[Pilgrim65]

Hi Ken and others 

2nd  car amazing ,hope it saves you big bucks , probably need it imagine it’s a big bucks restoration anyway.

Which out of interest, leads me to ask any knowledgeable members whether restoration of a 40s Classic is usually dearer than a mid fifties and is this sometimes considered before taking the plunge and buying project car . Also I notice that the 40s restored cars are a lot dearer to buy  than the 50s Cars , is that because of rarity or a reflection of the higher restoration costs .

However  I think the majority of members don’t look at the economics but make purchases mainly because they love that particular car , I certainly did.

[neil morse]

That is great news, Ken!  Sounds like you've found a treasure trove of needed parts.  I see that the bondo shop had decided to permanently blend the rear fenders into the body.  😯  What were they thinking?  Oh well, it doesn't matter now. 

[kgreen]

48 minutes ago, neil morse said:

That is great news, Ken!  Sounds like you've found a treasure trove of needed parts.  I see that the bondo shop had decided to permanently blend the rear fenders into the body.  😯  What were they thinking?  Oh well, it doesn't matter now. 

I feel lucky indeed.  I suspect that I could salvage the left rear fender as the field of the fender is in good shape.  The right rear was really ripped then stitch welded.  I wouldn't save that one.

[JohnD1956]

2 hours ago, Pilgrim65 said:

Which out of interest, leads me to ask any knowledgeable members whether restoration of a 40s Classic is usually dearer than a mid fifties and is this sometimes considered before taking the plunge and buying project car . Also I notice that the 40s restored cars are a lot dearer to buy  than the 50s Cars , is that because of rarity or a reflection of the higher restoration costs .

However  I think the majority of members don’t look at the economics but make purchases mainly because they love that particular car , I certainly did.

 

When you say "dearer" do you mean more expensive?

 

Regardless, I think most people make a purchase because of opportunity.  Something is there, and affordable, when the viewer is ready to make the jump.  I think a much smaller number of folks make a purchase after searching for what they want, and after a particularly hard search, might be willing to pay a premium price  if they find what suits them.

 

And I think most people will look for what gave them good memories at some point in their life, and that point is probably High School.  And if there is any truth to that, the volume in the classic car market will continuously shift to newer cars as younger folks discover more discretionary income.  However, I believe there will always be someone interested in a classic car of any year, until such time as there is no more gasoline.

 

Meanwhile @kgreen,  NICE find!!!  I will be watching to see if this parts car turns into the 2nd of the "His and Hers" collection. 

[Pilgrim65]

41 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said:

 

When you say "dearer" do you mean more expensive?

 

Regardless, I think most people make a purchase because of opportunity.  Something is there, and affordable, when the viewer is ready to make the jump.  I think a much smaller number of folks make a purchase after searching for what they want, and after a particularly hard search, might be willing to pay a premium price  if they find what suits them.

 

And I think most people will look for what gave them good memories at some point in their life, and that point is probably High School.  And if there is any truth to that, the volume in the classic car market will continuously shift to newer cars as younger folks discover more discretionary income.  However, I believe there will always be someone interested in a classic car of any year, until such time as there is no more gasoline.

 

Meanwhile @kgreen,  NICE find!!!  I will be watching to see if this parts car turns into the 2nd of the "His and Hers" collection. 

Good points John , but shows a disparity between late teenage life in the 50s and 60 s life in Us , we rarely had the opportunity to own gorgeous  American cars of the day ,best you could get was an old MG unless you were from a wealthy family and could afford a jag .

ps dearer commonly used here as  alternative to more expensive 😊

Edited December 10, 2018 by Pilgrim65 (see edit history)

[kgreen]

2 hours ago, Pilgrim65 said:

Hi Ken and others 

2nd  car amazing ,hope it saves you big bucks , probably need it imagine it’s a big bucks restoration anyway.

Which out of interest, leads me to ask any knowledgeable members whether restoration of a 40s Classic is usually dearer than a mid fifties and is this sometimes considered before taking the plunge and buying project car . Also I notice that the 40s restored cars are a lot dearer to buy  than the 50s Cars , is that because of rarity or a reflection of the higher restoration costs .

However  I think the majority of members don’t look at the economics but make purchases mainly because they love that particular car , I certainly did.

Both decades of cars are rather scarce in native form these days as junkyards have purged this older material and you no longer see the 40's or 50's car abandoned at the gas station where the owner was unwilling or unable to pay the $50 repair bill on a car that was generally useless.  I'm thinking that a general statement of restoration cost doesn't hold very well.

 

If you take a look at the 58 Caballero that 95Cardinal is restoring, I think you will see a significantly greater expense in that 50's era car than the 40 that I am restoring (reconstructing).  That '58 has many, many parts for the sake of art and quite a bit of chrome.  Look at the discussion of his rear view mirror for example.  It's a beautiful car. The restoration cost of a 41 Buick could easily be higher than a 1940 given the amount of chrome on the car even though production of the 1941 was nearly 100,000 units greater than the 1940.  These are just two examples  where the 1940 Buick would be less expensive than the higher production car and the 50's car.  

 

I got this car because of the emotional attachment, just as you did.

[Pilgrim65]

5 minutes ago, kgreen said:

Both decades of cars are rather scarce in native form these days as junkyards have purged this older material and you no longer see the 40's or 50's car abandoned at the gas station where the owner was unwilling or unable to pay the $50 repair bill on a car that was generally useless.  I'm thinking that a general statement of restoration cost doesn't hold very well.

 

If you take a look at the 58 Caballero that 95Cardinal is restoring, I think you will see a significantly greater expense in that 50's era car than the 40 that I am restoring (reconstructing).  That '58 has many, many parts for the sake of art and quite a bit of chrome.  Look at the discussion of his rear view mirror for example.  It's a beautiful car. The restoration cost of a 41 Buick could easily be higher than a 1940 given the amount of chrome on the car even though production of the 1941 was nearly 100,000 units greater than the 1940.  These are just two examples  where the 1940 Buick would be less expensive than the higher production car and the 50's car.  

 

I got this car because of the emotional attachment, just as you did.

Thanks Ken , interesting observations and just as I imagined, easy to make an emotional attachment to a gorgeous 40s convertible, , cant wait to see your progress photos in due course .

cheers

[kgreen]

1 minute ago, Pilgrim65 said:

Thanks Ken , interesting observations and just as I imagined, easy to make an emotional attachment to a gorgeous 40s convertible, , cant wait to see your progress photos in due course .

cheers

Speaking as I am  because I grew up in the US and saw these older cars routinely.  I wasn't thinking that if you grew up in the UK the sight of american cars abandoned as junk wouldn't be as common as it was here.  

 

In the early 70's I had a neighbor that had a '52 or '53 MG sitting beside his garage that I was dying to get my hands on.  In another sense, you were fortunate to see those cars left here and there where you live.  Either way - ain't it great!

[JohnD1956]

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 2:00 PM, Pilgrim65 said:

Good points John , but shows a disparity between late teenage life in the 50s and 60 s life in Us , we rarely had the opportunity to own gorgeous  American cars of the day ,best you could get was an old MG unless you were from a wealthy family and could afford a jag .

ps dearer commonly used here as  alternative to more expensive 😊

 

My first car ( technically) was a 1960 MGA...  Loved that little thing!  And I yearned for a  Jag XK 120 or an Austin 3000.  But I am good to go with my few cars now.

[Pilgrim65]

43 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said:

 

My first car ( technically) was a 1960 MGA...  Loved that little thing!  And I yearned for a  Jag XK 120 or an Austin 3000.  But I am good to go with my few cars now.

Bit of de ja vue for your John , my friend here just completing resto 1960 Mga

california Car , could have been yours  😊

 

And the one you wanted , but this a 150k

Edited December 12, 2018 by Pilgrim65 (see edit history)

[dei]

Can I ask Ken what the plan is for this car after you get the good parts off it?

Would there be enough left to make a road car out of it or is it more than likely going to be strictly a parts car?

Did it come with an engine? Just curious / dreaming...

 

believe me when I say I know what it is to have a car or two around to have for reference and swap out parts. 

[kgreen]

6 hours ago, dei said:

Can I ask Ken what the plan is for this car after you get the good parts off it?

Would there be enough left to make a road car out of it or is it more than likely going to be strictly a parts car?

Did it come with an engine? Just curious / dreaming...

 

believe me when I say I know what it is to have a car or two around to have for reference and swap out parts. 

The main body has some very serious rust and could use the sacrifice of a donor super body. The car did come with complete running gear and the serial number of the engine matches what would be a late year production model similar to the car production time frame. I just got it home and it’s been too darn cold to examine further for engine condition. It came with a title as well stating about 89,000 miles. The PO tells me that the older gentleman that he bought it from insisted this was correct mileage. I’m going to pull the transmission to check the u joint. I’ll get a better idea of mileage (possibly) and whether other mechanics have played with the car. 

 

But, I will still be left with the majority of the car as I’m not taking any body panels. Plus it has the correct convertible frame. 

Edited December 13, 2018 by kgreen (see edit history)

[kgreen]

Closer examination of the 76C parts car reveals damage, but not as bad as I thought.  I've yet to craw underneath the car.  Here's the floorboards, front left:

 

Under the rear seat and rear seat floor area:

[kgreen]

Rear at trunk, right side, left side is OK:

Tail pan, typical damage:

Both doors would need reconstruction, showing damage similar to both:

 

Typical rocker damage, both sides:

[kgreen]

Couple of shots under the car along the right side.  Underside of front floorboard:

 

I've seen worse:

 

Oops, I've seen better:

 

Think I'd consider replacing the fuel line, but the frame doesn't look heavily pitted:

[kgreen]

The trunk floor is rather solid too.  I really was hoping this thing was well beyond repair rather just really needing repair.  Still think sacrificing a nice Super body shell would be a good move here, cause I need these parts.

[JohnD1956]

@kgreen   Looks like you have entered that slippery slope!   1940 convertible # 2 coming up! 

 

Actually, since the fenders have been welded on, this might make a neat modified "driver" with which to tow the restored version.  You can take your parts for the Roadmaster,  and then just patch this one up with a torque monster V8, A/C, and a tow hitch.    What could be cooler than that?!?

[1940Super]

On 9/29/2018 at 2:16 AM, kgreen said:

Never knew this book existed until I was significantly outbid on another copy a week or two ago on eBay.  @2carb40  gave me the heads up.  I found another at a reasonable price.  This ought to help during the first year or two after the car is roadworthy!

 

 

That would have been me

[1940Super]

On 6/28/2018 at 8:06 AM, kgreen said:

Found a chassis in Michigan, correct engine, still no wiring and no interior.  The 76C had a 1941 engine.  The engine in this chassis was advertised for sale and when I queried the seller about the engine serial number, I learned that this engine was correct for about the time period the 76C was manufacturered.  The car was a four door Roadmaster, abandoned in a barn that had fallen in on itself.  The contractor hired to push the old barn into the nearby ravine and build new discovered this and two other cars.  He wanted to keep the body to make a rat rod.  He happily had me carry the whole chassis away.

 

I got lots of valuable parts such as the optional 3.6:1 rear end, shift linkage, extra shocks to rebuild, brake drums, transmission and a model of where brake lines, the gas line and such were positioned.  None of that was present on the 76C.

 

I had the engine completely machined, replacing all moving parts and had one cylinder resleeved.

 

The head is rebuilt with new valves and planed slightly to match the block.

 

Engine complete except for accessories.

Ken, could you take photos of the gas line please. When I bought mine it was replace with a rubber hose so I have no idea how the steel line was run except I see there was a fuel line clip on the underside of the body near the gas tank 

[kgreen]

12 minutes ago, 1940Super said:

Ken, could you take photos of the gas line please. When I bought mine it was replace with a rubber hose so I have no idea how the steel line was run except I see there was a fuel line clip on the underside of the body near the gas tank 

 

The fuel line runs outside of the right frame rail and is clipped.  This is the donor chassis and the clips had all rusted away, and on this chassis, the fuel line was cut at the rear when the gas tank was removed.

 

The fuel line goes through the frame rail at a point near the rear attachment of the battery tray.  Not grommet, there are two of them; one inside and one on the outside of the frame rail.

 

 

The metal fuel line exists the frame rail through rubber grommets and has a flare connection to the final fuel line segment feeding the fuel pump.  The factory line feeding the fuel pump was rubber at the flare connection just inside the frame rail, then transitioned with a crimp onto a steel line that fed directly into the fuel pump.  I don't have a photo to verify, but believe the steel portion of the fuel line inside the engine compartment was clipped to the engine.

 

 

 

[1940Super]

20 hours ago, kgreen said:

 

The fuel line runs outside of the right frame rail and is clipped.  This is the donor chassis and the clips had all rusted away, and on this chassis, the fuel line was cut at the rear when the gas tank was removed.

 

The fuel line goes through the frame rail at a point near the rear attachment of the battery tray.  Not grommet, there are two of them; one inside and one on the outside of the frame rail.

 

 

The metal fuel line exists the frame rail through rubber grommets and has a flare connection to the final fuel line segment feeding the fuel pump.  The factory line feeding the fuel pump was rubber at the flare connection just inside the frame rail, then transitioned with a crimp onto a steel line that fed directly into the fuel pump.  I don't have a photo to verify, but believe the steel portion of the fuel line inside the engine compartment was clipped to the engine.

 

 

thanks for showing. the steel line from rubber hose to fuel pump looks really being out of shape. it should look like this:

circled in red is where the clip to the oil pan studs are. I made up a clip myself

In the manual I read the 40,50,60 and 70s series the pipe was clipped to the underside of body. shouldn't be too hard to replicate as most of the pipe is a straight line. 

I bought a reproduction rubber section from CARS:

Instead of being crimped to pipe is has a flare connection. The original was also covered with canvas which I think i can see a tiny bit left on yours. The purpose of the rubber hose was for sound insulation. So the union connection must meet inside the frame where it goes through the gromments

[1940Super]

the clip 

[kgreen]

Nice work Matt.  What are you using for reference material?

[1940Super]

1 hour ago, kgreen said:

Nice work Matt.  What are you using for reference material?

The engine illustration  was from the shop manual and there is some detail about the fuel line in there. Will you run a new steel or brass fuel line yourself?

[kgreen]

2 minutes ago, 1940Super said:

The engine illustration  was from the shop manual and there is some detail about the fuel line in there. Will you run a new steel or brass fuel line yourself?

 

Yes, I will want to run a new steel line similar to initial manufacture.  I hadn't looked for the replacement section of the fuel line yet as I am not as far into the work as you are.  From this discussion, I would consider having a hydraulic shop fabricate the crimped rubber to steel line then I would bend it to fit.  I'm not sure if I could beat the roughly $20 cost from Cars, but I wouldn't be too far off.

[1940Super]

18 hours ago, kgreen said:

 

Yes, I will want to run a new steel line similar to initial manufacture.  I hadn't looked for the replacement section of the fuel line yet as I am not as far into the work as you are.  From this discussion, I would consider having a hydraulic shop fabricate the crimped rubber to steel line then I would bend it to fit.  I'm not sure if I could beat the roughly $20 cost from Cars, but I wouldn't be too far off.

 

If i knew the detail of the hose and probably would have done the same. I'm not sure why CARS put yellow plastic on the ends either

[1940Super]

Ken, Are the original exhaust brackets still on the chassis?