Surf City '38

Lost Topic - 1938 1/2t Engine Removal Project

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29 minutes ago, Surf City '38 said:

Not happy with all of them, but for now will do....may go back later and redo the fuel line and the passenger front brake lines....

2E4879DA-9A2D-4E06-A250-6DD2DF9EF8D1.jpegYour brake/fuel  lines look great :) better than mine, that's for sure.:D 

13371312-BA96-4BDE-9005-895E4108D546.jpeg

CB866B43-DA4E-4B45-9E69-2967BC06B939.jpeg

 

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One thing though, on mine there is a circle in the line from the master cyl, so its flexible. (the original was done a lot neater than I was able to) I can't tell if you put one in further back.? 

20190421_191252.jpg

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Posted (edited)

If you get air in that circle, it will be hard to get out.

 

Not sure what model trucks you gent's have, so here is the info. I have on clutch friction plates.

image.thumb.png.b6b32a779179d3c2fdb224b647076a6d.png

image.thumb.png.79dfb3d4c9f1374a8b06cab328649515.png

image.thumb.png.662e9143dbbf67023f176da642cc2a11.png

image.thumb.png.a862790dfc098824bef1a9ffd66b8645.png

image.thumb.png.67ce645e32515ea688ef57c1cbfc1495.png

image.thumb.png.1c897b7a76cd0ec1dd5022c8632b5e8f.png These two, 905 and 919, are interchangeable.

image.thumb.png.31286ef17b3123761d7be5615e026ab1.png

image.thumb.png.adf3a0cf0f01bbb4d2c2acff99bf2c77.png

 

The Hollander says the '38-42 RC etc. takes a "91" which is a 905, 919, 920 or 948.

 

It is a 10A7 = 10" plate.

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)
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3 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

If you get air in that circle, it will be hard to get out.

Good point. 😂 the original was flatter, probably. I still have it, I'll find and post a photo. it had a much tighter circle. I think its important though, since the master cyl is mounted to the bell housing and moves with the engine, whereas the brake line distribution block is mounted to the frame. it could flex quite a bit... 

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3 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Not sure what model trucks you gent's have, so here is the info. I have on clutch friction plates.

Thanks much for this Spinnyhill, its just what I was looking for. it seems 919 is the right one after all 

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I would not have a circle. Any high point like that with sharp curvature will make an air lock hard to remove. I would have a straight pipe, assuming the pipe runs from the master cylinder to the other side of the car to the junction?

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The master cyl / junction is  on the same side,  and the line is around 2 feet long. with the engine /bellhousing /master cylinder mounted on rubber, it and the fuel line is the only solid metal connections. so all torque and front to back movement of the engine will be transferred through it. I do agree my circle is bigger than the original and should be flatter, so it can't trap air, but  it seems dangerous to put that much stress on a straight pipe,? I think it could fatigue and break..  

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Posted (edited)

I have seen some late 30's Dodge trucks with a loop and others without (mine was without) and do not know what is considered original...

 

BTW, I did not put a loop on mine, this is a show truck only and using a straight pipe looks cleaner...if this were a driver, I would for sure put a loop in the line...

 

Depending on my judging scores, I may change later for the sake of authenticity...

 

So here is my take on this subject (my opinion only)

 

So when designing modern day cars/trucks with very low internal engine part weight variances and very close tolerances with high amounts of horsepower, vibrations are nothing like they used to be, however, ridgity is still not good...things snap under tension, so today's automakers build in large amounts of plastic and rubber to absorb these shocks....in the mid '60s through the early '90s most US made cars came with the photo below....due to high amounts of twisting between the frame and the body...a shock absorber (loops) was needed to flex the twist....addtionaly the loop is used as a method to allow flex when trying to connect the lines.

 

Notice on the photo the MC is high....and the lines run below and are usually connected to the fluid distribution block...

 

The tube was coiled horizontally (flat) to absorb up/down twist and the line run below, to allow for air to bleed back up, via gravity...

 

Now using the same logic for our Trucks, certainly with higher weight tolerances and minimal amounts of rubber with on some cases less than 75 hp....the location of the MC and the fluid distribution block are almost exactly horizontal to each other, with the block being slightly higher...so if you have a loop on your tube, it should be in the vertical (tall) position to absorb left/right twisting...and that the highest point of the loop is still lower than the fluid distribution block, to allow for air to be "bleed", and that the loop is still large enough to absorb and twisting from left to right....

 

When I rebuilt my engine, I balanced, blueprinted and Moly coated all the internal engine parts. Additionally, the flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch were all balanced together, and finally, I am in the process of balancing and trueing the drive shaft...but I am sure there will be flex under torque and vibration while at speed, but again, this is going to be a show car and not meant to be driven, so I plan to keep the line straight for now.

 

 

PmtX6.jpg

Edited by Surf City '38 (see edit history)
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Logical thinking. I have not seen another truck in person in detail  that isn't rodded, so don't know for a fact what is correct. mine was parked since 1971, and never restored, so I believe it had the loop originally.  yours is also very original, I wonder if the loop was added late in production? 

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There were a surprising amount of changes during the production year. mine must be one of the last made, with a bellhousing casting date of 3-28-38.  one thing I notice, your distribution block is mounted more away from the frame, on a bracket. maybe it was a way of letting the whole thing flex a little, so the loop isn't needed? I don't remember how mine is mounted, but think its more solid to the frame. I'll check later.

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1 hour ago, Surf City '38 said:

I have seen some late 30's Dodge trucks with a loop and others without (mine was without) and do not know what is considered original...

 

BTW, I did not put a loop on mine, this is a show truck only and using a straight pipe looks cleaner...if this were a driver, I would for sure put a loop in the line...

 

Depending on my judging scores, I may change later for the sake of authenticity...

 

So here is my take on this subject (my opinion only)

 

So when designing modern day cars/trucks with very low internal engine part weight variances and very close tolerances with high amounts of horsepower, vibrations are nothing like they used to be, however, ridgity is still not good...things snap under tension, so today's automakers build in large amounts of plastic and rubber to absorb these shocks....in the mid '60s through the early '90s most US made cars came with the photo below....due to high amounts of twisting between the frame and the body...a shock absorber (loops) was needed to flex the twist....addtionaly the loop is used as a method to allow flex when trying to connect the lines.

 

Notice on the photo the MC is high....and the lines run below and are usually connected to the fluid distribution block...

 

The tube was coiled horizontally (flat) to absorb up/down twist and the line run below, to allow for air to bleed back up, via gravity...

 

Now using the same logic for our Trucks, certainly with higher weight tolerances and minimal amounts of rubber with on some cases less than 75 hp....the location of the MC and the fluid distribution block are almost exactly horizontal to each other, with the block being slightly higher...so if you have a loop on your tube, it should be in the vertical (tall) position to absorb left/right twisting...and that the highest point of the loop is still lower than the fluid distribution block, to allow for air to be "bleed", and that the loop is still large enough to absorb and twisting from left to right....

 

When I rebuilt my engine, I balanced, blueprinted and Moly coated all the internal engine parts. Additionally, the flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch were all balanced together, and finally, I am in the process of balancing and trueing the drive shaft...but I am sure there will be flex under torque and vibration while at speed, but again, this is going to be a show car and not meant to be driven, so I plan to keep the line straight for now.

 

 

PmtX6.jpg

Hi Ya!! Do you have a good picture with numbers of your steering gearbox? Have a customer looking for one. Thanks.

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1 hour ago, 38rcdodge said:

There were a surprising amount of changes during the production year. mine must be one of the last made, with a bellhousing casting date of 3-28-38.  one thing I notice, your distribution block is mounted more away from the frame, on a bracket. maybe it was a way of letting the whole thing flex a little, so the loop isn't needed? I don't remember how mine is mounted, but think its more solid to the frame. I'll check later.

 

The block is a modern day block, not original.

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1 hour ago, countrytravler said:

Hi Ya!! Do you have a good picture with numbers of your steering gearbox? Have a customer looking for one. Thanks.

 

Hey buddy, glad your back in town....still owe you dinner next time your down my way....I'll take some photos later this afternoon when I'm back at my shop.

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Posted (edited)

If that loop in the brake line were horizontal or downwards, there would be no high point to trap air. Water pipe lines usually have a valve at high points to let air out because it is so hard to remove.

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)
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2 minutes ago, Surf City '38 said:

The block is a modern day block, not original.

Ahh makes sense. I noticed the adapter on it.  I do think the way it is will allow some flexing. my solid lines were actually done almost 25 years ago, so I don't remember every detail..

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3 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said:

If that loop in the brake line were horizontal or downwards, there would be no high point to trap air. Water pipe lines usually have a valve at high points to let air out because it is so hard to remove.

  Yup, I think the original was more horizontal. that one was done almost 25 years ago, I'll probably re do it at some point.😉 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, countrytravler said:

Hi Ya!! Do you have a good picture with numbers of your steering gearbox? Have a customer looking for one. Thanks.

 

Ok, so I took a photo of the unit that was on it when I acquired the truck 5 years ago, odd markings so not sure if it is original, doubtful.

 

Then took a shot from the unit on the 1937 donor truck I picked up in Norco a few years ago. Remember mine is a first-week production 1938, making it 6 Oct 1937, even though it’s a 1938 model year, 1937 and 1938 parts interchange easily on mine.

 

The stamp on the rolling unit is CALI and under it is 581 and under this numbers is a 3. This was the straighter shaft unit of the two, gearboxes were fine in both, hence the reason I refurbished the odd one.....

 

On the donor unit is 12132 over C10, this is an original unit.

 

let me know.

69DD64C8-6770-4FB0-B982-814946C24C8B.jpeg

6AFAD39C-A631-4A45-AED6-09054FC1406D.jpeg

9D3AE5F7-DDD2-43B2-96F0-12A6F0A078C0.jpeg

Edited by Surf City '38 (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Surf City '38 said:

 

Ok, so I took a photo of the unit that was on it when I acquired the truck 5 years ago, odd markings so not sure if it is original, doubtful.

 

Then took a shot from the unit on the 1937 donor truck I picked up in Norco a few years ago. Remember mine is a first-week production 1938, making it 6 Oct 1937, even though it’s a 1938 model year, 1937 and 1938 parts interchange easily on mine.

 

The stamp on the rolling unit is CALI and under it is 581 and under this numbers is a 3. This was the straighter shaft unit of the two, gearboxes were fine in both, hence the reason I refurbished the odd one.....

 

On the donor unit is 12132 over C10, this is an original unit.

 

let me know.

69DD64C8-6770-4FB0-B982-814946C24C8B.jpeg

6AFAD39C-A631-4A45-AED6-09054FC1406D.jpeg

9D3AE5F7-DDD2-43B2-96F0-12A6F0A078C0.jpeg

Thank you, Alen. Great info and thank you. The truck is looking great.

Talk to you later.

Dave

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Interesting its stamped CALI I wonder if there were special steering boxes for California?.  I'll check mine, and compare numbers, when I can. just going on memory it looks the same as yours... except yours are cleaner.😂

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I did locate my original brake line from the master cylinder, the loop is put in so its below the level of the inlet/outlet to prevent air entrapment. it looks professionally made, so I'd bet its from the factory. it would be interesting to see other  original '38s and see how many have loops and how many not, vs production date. its hard to know for sure...

20190422_135306.jpg

20190422_135253.jpg

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All that is left from 2 SS 1/4” 20’ coils and nothing left of 1 5/16 “ 20’ coil....glad that process is done...whew!

 

 

image.jpg

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I have a dumb question for you. You bought that brake pipe in a coil. How did you get it so straight on the vehicle?

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