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A went to a 3 day vintage touring event up here and had my Wells Cargo car hauler there. A fellow was looking at it and asked me if the tongue weight was heavy seeing it is 56 in. long tongue. I was thinking it would be lighter when thinking of leverage. If you position the car with the motor in front of the axle for proper balance  you should not need sway bars as I never use them and I do not use load levelers on the hitch. I have 10,400 lb. cap. torsion suspension that is an overkill. But after bending an axle  with 7500 lb. cap. of my open trailer a few years ago on 81 in PA coming home from the Vintage Tour I go heavier now. Do the heavier capacity trailers have a longer tongue to help balance and is it a heavier tongue weight because of the longer length?

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It appears you are using the “by guess & by golly” weight distribution methiod.  When you buy a travel trailer, it is built with a tongue weight equal 10 to 15% of the trailer.  When the hitch weight gets heavier, you need equalizer bars to distribute the tongue weight to the front wheels & back to the trailer wheels.  

 

When the tongue weight is too little, the trailer can sway sideways back & forth till you slow down or flip over.

 

(1) load your trailer & weight it without the tow vehicle attached.

(2) Next weigh the tow vehicle without the loaded trailer.

(3) Attach the trailer to your tow vehicle & move the only the tow vehicle wheels on the scale.

(4) Subtract the tow vehicle (2) weight from the tow vehicle attached to trailer (3) giving the tongue weight.

(5) Divide the tongue weight (4) by the trailer weight (1) giving percentage of hitch weight.  This should be in the 10 to 15% range.

(6) Move the car forward or back to attain 10 to 15% tongue weight.

 

The tow vehicle & trailer should be even height front to back.  If it sags at the ball, you are a candidate for equalizer bars.  With the bars, you can load the car closer to the front with a 15 to 20% tongue weight.

 

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A longer tongue allows better control when backing.

 

With more steel, a longer tongue will add weight to the tongue at the ball.

 

The tongue weight calculation is to use the distance from the ball to the axel & the percentage of distance the weight is from the front.  we need the cargo area length & the tongue length for both trailers.  We will also need the distance the axle is from the ball.

Edited by huptoy (see edit history)
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3 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

  you should not need sway bars as I never use them 

 

Why would you think that you don't need a sway control bar? A sway control is the best $65 you can spend if you plan on towing any distance at highway speeds on the interstates. 

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I have an open and an enclosed trailers for the past 35 years. My 2500 GMC tow vehicle that I has 130,000 miles on has never had a sway bar on it. I have hauled from above Lake Ontario as far as Texas, Arizona and New Mexico more than 30 times over the years.   Have hauled my 30 Cadillac to different events on the eastern seaboard. Going to Mississippi in Nov. for the AACA Sentimental tour hauling an open trailer down there. Will take four days driving there and back and will not have a sway bar on. I hauled to the Glidden tour to New Hampshire 2 years ago where they have serious hills and no sway bar . If you are not sure of how you load your trailer by all means put one on.  You may need if your tongue weight is light and your trailer is trying to pass you when going down hill. An old picture coming home from Texas and notice the hitch.

  That is a nice scale that could come in handy.

2007-05-08 2013-03-17 001 008.jpg

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2 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

That is a nice scale that could come in handy.

You know I used to only use high speed steel cutters on my machines one of my friends told  me use carbide but I said high speed steel works grate .one day I used some carbide end mills and wow but rely expensive 150. each high speed 35. but now  no going back . So now when one of my buddy's suggest something that's new I am more likely to try it and if it don't work  so well I would skip it but thin I would know for sure . I had never thought about it but now I am going to try a equalizer bar .

 

6 hours ago, huptoy said:

equalizer bars.

  

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15 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

But with a longer tongue does it increase the tongue weight is my question. You see trailers with different tongue lengths.

 

Joe,

The longer tongue is also call a "Motorhome Tongue" or truck tongue.   When towing a trailer with a wide tow vehicle like a Motor-home or truck with a wide body, you need the extra tongue length when backing to avoid the dreaded "jackknife"    (Learned from experience)    I don't think it changes the tongue weight unless it might lessen it with the vehicle on the same spot on both trailers, because the fulcrum point changes.

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3 hours ago, Paul Dobbin said:

 

Joe,

The longer tongue is also call a "Motorhome Tongue" or truck tongue.   When towing a trailer with a wide tow vehicle like a Motor-home or truck with a wide body, you need the extra tongue length when backing to avoid the dreaded "jackknife"    (Learned from experience)    I don't think it changes the tongue weight unless it might lessen it with the vehicle on the same spot on both trailers, because the fulcrum point changes.

Thanks Paul for the input on the wider tow vehicle. I learned something but still unsure of the tongue weight.

Edited by Joe in Canada (see edit history)
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Hauling collectibles for more than 55 years - open and closed - in all parts of the US, Canada, and Mexico-

Once I tried my first Equalizer Hitch, I learned what I'd been missing.

The safety,

The smooth ride without Up-and-Down Bounce,

The 30 ft wheelbase,

The relative Peace of Mind

Easy addition of an Anti-Sway Bar (although I personally rarely use mine). I load with 20% weight forward of trailer axle centers and have essentially no sway, and could even do quick maneuvers when necessary, and the trailer just follows.

 

The hitch functions properly as a Horizontal Pivot, but does not have to be a constant Vertical Fulcrum / Hinge.

 

An additional benefit is that proper load is maintained on the tow vehicle's front axle so the steering does not become extremely light or vague, as can be the case with excess tongue weight.

Edited by Marty Roth
typo (One = Once) (see edit history)
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For Marty & Larry,  The Equalizer hitch is even more effective to improve towing than the Anti sway bar, especially when the tow vehicle is a light weight.  But tongue weight or lack there of

is what gets people in trouble.  To much makes steering unstable, not enough lets the trailer push the towing vehicle around.

Towing 57 Cadillac on a trailer with a F-150 years ago, it turned the towing vehicle and the towed trailer 180 degrees.  Fortunately we hit nothing but grass.  (To much tongue weight)

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A longer tongue:

 

Reduces the chance of the trailer hitting the tow vehicle on tight turns

Can provide space for storage box

 

A weight distribution style hitch should always be used to equalize & distribute the load

 

 

Jim

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22 hours ago, Paul Dobbin said:

For Marty & Larry,  The Equalizer hitch is even more effective to improve towing than the Anti sway bar, especially when the tow vehicle is a light weight.  But tongue weight or lack there of

is what gets people in trouble.  To much makes steering unstable, not enough lets the trailer push the towing vehicle around.

Towing 57 Cadillac on a trailer with a F-150 years ago, it turned the towing vehicle and the towed trailer 180 degrees.  Fortunately we hit nothing but grass.  (To much tongue weight)

 

AGREED !

 

I always use the Equalizer, and the Anti-Sway is a positive addition, but I only use it in conjunction with the Equalizer

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 I set up a F350 with a heavy trailer using a load leveling hitch.

 I ended up with both the trailer and truck level, and the truck down 1" evenly on both ends.

 This made for much better steering.

 

 I still remember the ad for load leveler using an Olds Toronado driving with the rear wheels removed. Now, that's weight transfer!

Edited by Roger Walling (see edit history)
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On 6/15/2018 at 1:08 PM, Roger Walling said:

 I set up a F350 with a heavy trailer using a load leveling hitch.

 I ended up with both the trailer and truck level, and the truck down 1" evenly on both ends.

 This made for much better steering.

 

 I still remember the ad for load leveler using an Olds Toronado driving with the rear wheels removed. Now, that's weight transfer!

 

I did the same thing with our 1967 Citroen DS-21 and my father-in-law's 22ft boat on a dual axle trailer - took off the rear wheels of the FWD Citroen and drove 120 miles from Grand Isle to New Orleans - and saw some very surprised people along bayou LaFourche and US-90.

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On 6/15/2018 at 1:08 PM, Roger Walling said:

 I set up a F350 with a heavy trailer using a load leveling hitch.

 I ended up with both the trailer and truck level, and the truck down 1" evenly on both ends.

 This made for much better steering.

 

 I still remember the ad for load leveler using an Olds Toronado driving with the rear wheels removed. Now, that's weight transfer!

 

I did the same thing with our 1967 Citroen DS-21 and my father-in-law's 22ft boat on a dual axle trailer - took off the rear wheels of the FWD Citroen and drove 120 miles from Grand Isle to New Orleans - and saw some very surprised people along bayou LaFourche and US-90.

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When it comes to towing SAFELY, proper equipment is key like others here have mentioned.

I use a Reese Straight Line Hitch with Dual Cam sway control. That along with proper loading of the various vehicles I tow makes for a level trailer,  well distributed load and no sway from cross winds or passing tractor trailers.

 

Since no one else has mentioned in in this thread.... One should also read the owners manual for one's tow vehicle. Depending on the tow vehicle, some of them now REQUIRE a Weight Distributing Hitch (WDH) when the trailer/tongue weight is over a certain weight. It seems some factory installed hitches have a limited "weight carrying" capacity (i some cases 5,000 lbs) when one does not use a WDH. Failing to use a weight distributing hitch can have costly consequences in all sorts of ways.

 

It is good to know that many AACA members place a high priority on towing Safely as evidenced from posts in this thread and numerous conversations I have had with other AACA members at meets and the Annual Meetings over the years.

 

However, from what I saw at the recent AGNM in Greensburg, there is still room for improvement when it comes to proper equipment and properly using that equipment in order to tow Safely. I won't go into details or post any photos here but let's just say I saw some tow vehicles squatting at the hitch ball under WAY TOO MUCH WEIGHT (ie no WDH and a load that either was not balanced or could not be balanced) which without a doubt compromised the tow vehicle's handling and the safety of it's occupants. Could moving the car on the trailer have helped to correct the overloaded hitch in some cases? Probably. Would a WDH setup helped in some cases, Definitely. In one particular case moving the car on the trailer was not possible given the size of the car and the trailer. Given the construction of the tow vehicle towing that trailer a WDH probably could not have even been used.  Still not a safe way to tow.  What I saw in the host hotel parking lot is all the more reason for AACA to continue to have Trailering seminars at the Annual Meeting. If somehow trailer seminars could be held at National Meets that would be even better although that would not be an easy task. A seminar in the trailer parking area at meets, with real world examples of trailer dos and don'ts would be very informative especially to those new to towing.

 

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51 minutes ago, charlier said:

When it comes to towing SAFELY, proper equipment is key like others here have mentioned.

I use a Reese Straight Line Hitch with Dual Cam sway control. That along with proper loading of the various vehicles I tow makes for a level trailer,  well distributed load and no sway from cross winds or passing tractor trailers.

 

Since no one else has mentioned in in this thread.... One should also read the owners manual for one's tow vehicle. Depending on the tow vehicle, some of them now REQUIRE a Weight Distributing Hitch (WDH) when the trailer/tongue weight is over a certain weight. It seems some factory installed hitches have a limited "weight carrying" capacity (i some cases 5,000 lbs) when one does not use a WDH. Failing to use a weight distributing hitch can have costly consequences in all sorts of ways.

 

It is good to know that many AACA members place a high priority on towing Safely as evidenced from posts in this thread and numerous conversations I have had with other AACA members at meets and the Annual Meetings over the years.

 

However, from what I saw at the recent AGNM in Greensburg, there is still room for improvement when it comes to proper equipment and properly using that equipment in order to tow Safely. I won't go into details or post any photos here but let's just say I saw some tow vehicles squatting at the hitch ball under WAY TOO MUCH WEIGHT (ie no WDH and a load that either was not balanced or could not be balanced) which without a doubt compromised the tow vehicle's handling and the safety of it's occupants. Could moving the car on the trailer have helped to correct the overloaded hitch in some cases? Probably. Would a WDH setup helped in some cases, Definitely. In one particular case moving the car on the trailer was not possible given the size of the car and the trailer. Given the construction of the tow vehicle towing that trailer a WDH probably could not have even been used.  Still not a safe way to tow.  What I saw in the host hotel parking lot is all the more reason for AACA to continue to have Trailering seminars at the Annual Meeting. If somehow trailer seminars could be held at National Meets that would be even better although that would not be an easy task. A seminar in the trailer parking area at meets, with real world examples of trailer dos and don'ts would be very informative especially to those new to towing.

 

 

Charlie, you offer a very positive thought with regard for greater safety when towing, as well as the suggestion for a TRAILERING SEMINAR AT MEETS .

Unfortunately, those who should take advantage of such an offer are likely the very ones who will ignore it and go blissfully on their way. One can only hope that neither they, nor others are ultimately harmed by their areas of lack.

 

My Dad used to say that some folks, unaware of potential concerns, were "Just Sitting There - Fat,  Dumb, and Happy", and unprepared for crisis. Defensive Driving, both on the road, as well as in pilot training come to mind.

 

Thank you again , Charlie, for your post and your thoughts with regard to the possible offering of a seminar at meets.

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28 minutes ago, Marty Roth said:

 

Charlie, you offer a very positive thought with regard for greater safety when towing, as well as the suggestion for a TRAILERING SEMINAR AT MEETS .

Unfortunately, those who should take advantage of such an offer are likely the very ones who will ignore it and go blissfully on their way. One can only hope that neither they, nor others are ultimately harmed by their areas of lack.

 

My Dad used to say that some folks, unaware of potential concerns, were "Just Sitting There - Fat,  Dumb, and Happy", and unprepared for crisis. Defensive Driving, both on the road, as well as in pilot training come to mind.

 

Thank you again , Charlie, for your post and your thoughts with regard to the possible offering of a seminar at meets.

 

Marty,  You hit the nail squarely on the head when it comes to those who could benefit most from information about safe trailering presented in a easy to understand, thoughtful way at an AACA Meet. Logistically speaking doing such a seminar would be a challenge as would getting people to attend. Sadly I see so many people on the roads today that fall into the group you mentioned and it is downright scary. Even more so when they create a dangerous situation that someone towing has to deal with in order to avoid/prevent an accident. 

 

On a brighter note, the trailer seminar at the 2018 Annual Meeting was GREAT. The way the presenter covered trailering basics and let the audience ask questions and share ideas really added to the educational experience. It may not be possible or practical to hold this seminar each year at the annual meeting but hopefully it can be held periodically for the benefit of both new and experienced people who tow a trailer.

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The most dangerous thing most car people will ever do is trailer a car.........skydiving and others such sports don't hold a candle to a bad trailer towing set up and a blowout of a rear wheel on the tow vehicle. 

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11 minutes ago, edinmass said:

The most dangerous thing most car people will ever do is trailer a car.........skydiving and others such sports don't hold a candle to a bad trailer towing set up and a blowout of a rear wheel on the tow vehicle. 

 

Ed, the sad part is many people don't realize this, and those who need this information never will read this thread

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21 minutes ago, John348 said:

 

Ed, the sad part is many people don't realize this, and those who need this information never will read this thread

 

Yes John, I agree. What I see going down the road scares the hell out of me. I learned the hard way in my teens, trying to use a Chevy Blazer to tow a BIG car. Even with a good trailer, I didn't have a weight distributing hitch, and the truck was way too short and light. I bought a Chevy Dually after having twenty close calls in two hundred miles. I asked around and learned about the weight distributing hitch, which I have now had for well over thirty years. I spent the big bucks in the old days and bought the adjustable one...........remember this was when I was still having trouble finding the gas money for the truck..........its amazing what we got by with when we were young. Now I run a crew cab dually with a 34 foot tag. Its a triple axel spread with torflex axles. I run load range G tractor trailer tires at 110 psi, the tires never blow out, and wear like iron. I run Michelins on the truck. I have been thinking of going over to a 4500 series truck, but then CDL and log books start to apply in many states. I was thinking of buying a 4500 series truck, and putting 3500 series trim/markers on it so I could have the safety factor and not get stuck up in the DOT thing more than we already are. 

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In California, with a Class C (regular) driver's license, you can tow up to 10K lbs (i.e., a trailer whose GVW per sticker is 9,999 or less) in non-commercial use with a tow vehicle whose own GVW is up to 26K lbs (e.g., motor home).

 

If your trailer is mfr-stickered as a GVW of 10,000 lbs or more (including almost all goosenecks), you need a Class A non-commercial license (carrying your own stuff) which requires an annual medical and an initial driving test with such a trailer--meaning you get a licensed friend to drive you and the rig to the DMMV.  No log book, though.

 

That's one reason why there are relatively few gooseneck car haulers here in Califunny.  And some people order trailers with 15K total rating of axles (2 x 7,500 or 3 x 5,200) but administratively downrated to under-10K by the mfr on its sticker.  Obviously this places a premium on lightweight walls and roof.

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I drive a crew cab long-bed Ford F-350 dually with HD springs towing a 10,000-pound-rated enclosed Featherlite trailer, all on Michelins. Everything sits level when loaded. That said, I don't have a sway control or a weight-distributing hitch, but have encountered no swaying or rear-end sagging issues. What are your thoughts -- do I really need to consider getting sway control and a weight-distributing hitch?

 

I agree with Ed -- I've seen a lot of people trying to get by on the cheap when trailering. I've also heard about a lot of trailering accidents through my decades in the hobby, including fatalities.

 

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1 hour ago, jrbartlett said:

I drive a crew cab long-bed Ford F-350 dually with HD springs towing a 10,000-pound-rated enclosed Featherlite trailer, all on Michelins. Everything sits level when loaded. That said, I don't have a sway control or a weight-distributing hitch, but have encountered no swaying or rear-end sagging issues. What are your thoughts -- do I really need to consider getting sway control and a weight-distributing hitch?

 

I agree with Ed -- I've seen a lot of people trying to get by on the cheap when trailering. I've also heard about a lot of trailering accidents through my decades in the hobby, including fatalities.

 

 

Hi James,

 

Do you "NEED" an Equalizer Hitch and Sway Control? Of course not!

 

BUT  

 

That Fateful Day when some unassuming driver, or child chasing a frisbee, or deer crossing the road, etc ... 

darts out in front of you and you have to make that inevitable swerve, possibly at high speed, with other vehicles near you, and one of your magnificent vehicles in your beautiful rig,

You (and I, sharing the highway with you) likely stand a better chance of a safe(r) outcome through the use of these devices -

  --  just my $ 0.02 worth.

 

For the relatively small cost, and the couple of minutes to hook it up, I see it as a worthwhile investment in safety - yours and mine.

 

Hope to see you and yours at many more National Tours, my friend

1930_Packards-Bartlett-Roth_Right.jpg

1930_Packards-Bartlett-Roth_Left.jpg

James_Bartlett_1_.JPG

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This past weekend I took a trip to upstate New York for my godson's high school graduation (driving my truck without a trailer). The safety issues I saw with people towing trailers were so numerous and serious that I just hoped I could get past them before something happened. What I saw spanned the tow vehicle spectrum from SUVs to 1/2 tons for Dually F350s.  Seems when it comes to lack of towing safety concerns, it seems that no class of tow vehicle is exempt. It is just more of less when it comes to the numbers of each tow vehicle class that are not towing safely. Some issues were mirrors that simply did not extend out far enough creating extremely dangerous blind spots, dangerously improper tow ball height (trailers looked like they were climbing a hill on LEVEL ground), lack of weight distribution (saggy rears) and lack of sway control (trailers doing the wiggle dance).  On one stretch of highway I saw a tractor trailer doing the posted speed limit (65) with a flat trailer tire that was flat and shredding itself. Would not have wanted to be around the people towing trailers in that heavy traffic when that tire came off. Basically, the "But" situation Marty mentions above.

 

The bottom line is all those who tow a trailer need to be careful out there and have good safety equipment which is properly setup. There seems to be a growing number of people that tow that do not know how to tow safely or simply do not care. Those people are going to run out of luck someday and the rest of us do not want to be there when that happens let alone without good equipment set up properly. I have not been towing all that long (13 years). During that time there have been occasions like Marty mentioned about where the proper equipment and setup made all the difference. Sure made me glad I had it.

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Charlier,

your observations are so true! I was talking to a guy at a local show yesterday he was boasting about his trailer and tow vehicle, and as he was describing how great everything he has is. As I do all of the time when I hear these danger situations I politely saw you might want to check things it sounds like you are on the edge with your equipment, and I received the same answers from him as the others'

i) I don't go far

2) I don't go that fast

3) I never had a problem, so why bother with stuff I don't need

my favorite answer is, and they all use it

 " it pulls it fine so there is no problem"

 

I always ask, would you take a flight in an airplane that is 15% over the weight limit? Would you take boat ride with a life preserver? and they still come up with some stupid answer justifying why they would. I just hope they don't hurt any innocent people.

 

I have only started towing about 15 years ago, but I asked people who I knew were doing it for years in the hobby for advise. 95% was great and spot on, the other 5% was very good.. I found I never stopped learning about towing and safety, and unfortunately most of the lessons are based on bad experiences,   I went to the AACA Meeting in Philly this year and attended the trailering seminar which was fantastic! It was all of us putting our experiences out there to learn from. The part that was sad was someone said " the people who really need this won't even bother to come because they already know everything" ........................... how true, just ask them

 

It is bad enough having a problem on the interstate, a problem with a trailer on the interstate or anywhere for that matter is 10X's worse

 

Be safe my friends!

  

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3 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

Well going on a tour in a week and I actually do have an equalizer hitch collecting dust in the barn.  You have convicted me in trying it out guys.

 

Joe,

 

Are we leaving the trailers in Alliston, 

or taking them ahead of time to Kincardine?

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13 hours ago, Marty Roth said:

 

Joe,

 

Are we leaving the trailers in Alliston, 

or taking them ahead of time to Kincardine?

   Marty

I have seen no arrangements for trailers in the literature for the tour. I called the hotel in Kincardine and was told they have room for trailers. Lynne and I will join in on Monday when they arrive there seeing I am trailering.

For you I would look at your map and you will see Kincardine is just above Detroit and a direct route for heading home. Your best bet might be to meet them in Kincardine rather than driving 200 miles back to Port Perry for your trailer. Will save you about 400 mi. return driving for your trailer if this is where you want to cross.  Now this is just a suggestion and not knowing your plans.  

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21 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

   Marty

I have seen no arrangements for trailers in the literature for the tour. I called the hotel in Kincardine and was told they have room for trailers. Lynne and I will join in on Monday when they arrive there seeing I am trailering.

For you I would look at your map and you will see Kincardine is just above Detroit and a direct route for heading home. Your best bet might be to meet them in Kincardine rather than driving 200 miles back to Port Perry for your trailer. Will save you about 400 mi. return driving for your trailer if this is where you want to cross.  Now this is just a suggestion and not knowing your plans.  

 

Thanks Joe,

But as of now, and unless something changes before Wednesday,

we will just drive the Corvette,

  leaving Gettysburg after judging - stay over somewhere near Niagara.

 

Gail said that some are coming with early cars, and others likely with 70s and 80s -

and everything in between, so the 'Vette is acceptable.

 

We will plan to trailer either the '15 Hudson or the '30 Packard for next year's AACA Vintage Tour.

 

I'll check to see if Steve will be available.

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1 minute ago, Marty Roth said:

 

Thanks Joe,

But as of now, and unless something changes before Wednesday,

we will just drive the Corvette,

  leaving Gettysburg after judging - stay over somewhere near Niagara.

 

Gail said that some are coming with early cars, and others likely with 70s and 80s -

and everything in between, so the 'Vette is acceptable.

 

We will plan to trailer either the '15 Hudson or the '30 Packard for next year's AACA Vintage Tour.

 

I'll check to see if Steve will be available.

If you need a room for the night I have an extra one with a queen size bed.

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On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 12:16 PM, jrbartlett said:

I drive a crew cab long-bed Ford F-350 dually with HD springs towing a 10,000-pound-rated enclosed Featherlite trailer, all on Michelins. Everything sits level when loaded. That said, I don't have a sway control or a weight-distributing hitch, but have encountered no swaying or rear-end sagging issues. What are your thoughts -- do I really need to consider getting sway control and a weight-distributing hitch?

 

I agree with Ed -- I've seen a lot of people trying to get by on the cheap when trailering. I've also heard about a lot of trailering accidents through my decades in the hobby, including fatalities.

 

 

I just rented the exact truck that you describe for a tour last week as the timing chain tensioner wore out on my Silverado was getting repaired.(300,000+ miles) and I still used my equalizer hitch.  The truck had a 3 inch receiver that I needed to get the adapters for.

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I think that those of us who tow with one ton Dually's may become complacent because of the inherent stability afforded by the heavy springs and dual rear wheels.  Before switching to a Gooseneck trailer I always used a equalizer hitches along with anti sway bar. To this day I always practice coming to a complete stop using only the trailer brakes  before I pull on the Interstate.  I will never forget hitting "black Ice" in Michigan while towing a 34 Pontiac parts car back to Iowa during Christmas vacation.  The Suburban and trailer did a complete 180 before coming to rest in the median but did not jack knife and there was no physical damage.  YOU CAN'T BE TOO SAFE.  Bob Smits

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