Sactownog

Re introduction 1933 Dodge - can't we all get along

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Let me start off by saying that when I originally got onto this forum in the beginning of 2018, I had just picked up my 1933 Dodge DP 6 that I found in a Barn that sat for 27 years and I made comments about how I planned to rip out the 230 Flathead 6, put in a Dodge 360 with new running gear and rear end, put new suspension on it to lower the stance and basically go for the FULL BLOWN HOTROD LOOK because well lets face it, it is a great platform to work with for a good looking hotrod. 

 

most of the comments on the AACA Forum were "don't ruin a survivor, leave it be, drive it and enjoy it" and for all accounts my primary goal while I stacked parts has been to drive it, fix the issues and cruise it around to local shows. 

 

Well now it has been 6 months and the car runs and drives great, I have won 2 awards "Best Vintage & Best of show at a local cruise night". and while I only go about 55 MPH (speedometer not correct so I always thought it was 35MPH but GPS says 50-55) I have decided that I will be keeping the 230 Flathead 6 for the look of the vintage old car, which I plan to rebuild in the winter and will not be lowering the car because the gangster look with the 4" white walls all work out with the stock stance. 

 

as for the drive train, I may swap out the rear end "I will keep old rear end" to get some speed for freeway travel and distance to shows, wineries, and events that are a bit further than a 55 MPH car can get me. 

 

I did come on here to get info and a lot of you have some good info. but I do want to say that while many are not open to the ideas of ANY CHANGE due to being 100% purists, I do feel that a bit of upkeep and upgrade is required on these old cars. so we will have to agree to disagree. I do want to say that I may have been a bit hostile in the beginning because as a person who has never owned an old car that is in such pristine condition, it can be frustrating to have a regular conversation with people about this or that when the only opinions that are thrown at me were do not do this or that.

 

so THAT being said, I am back on here and look forward to hopefully having some constructive conversations with you all in the near future. 

20180519_135850.jpg

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Benefits of AACA Membership.

Beautiful car.  Could you put a later WPC tranny with an overdrive in it.  Lots of people with "CCCA" classics have gone the overdrive way with aftermarket units.  At least with a Dodge there were factory O/D's in the later 30's.

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Car engine has been swapped somewhere in the 85 years since its berth. I plan to keep it with the flat head 6, but since it is not NUMBERS MATCHING original, I plan to pump up the 230 with dual carb's, cam, headers, and make it look clean and neat. 

 

I need to find a transmission, the only idea I have found so far is find a 82-88 T5 out of an S10. 

OR

Swap out the rear end with a Ford 9" with better gears so I can cruise on the highway with a bit more speed. 

 

any opinions on that would be helpful since finding an old transmission with OD seems to be really hard to find. 

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I've heard that that a late 1930s DeSoto overdrive transmission is an easy (no cutting, machining, etc.) fit. Apparently you can swap the top cover and shift lever of that transmission with the original one. Then use the freewheeling control cable for the overdrive control. If all that is true then it would be a whole lot easier than fitting a T5 and you'd save having to worry about coming up with another way to get a parking brake.

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Just a word of warning... if you are in hilly country you might regret changing the diff ratio. I have had larger tires on my 1930 Dodge and it was good for speed and gas mileage, but not so good on the hills. With the correct tires it flies up the hills (and drinks the juice coz it is fun zooming up the hills). Your car has a little more power than mine and may not be affected as much, but it will be affected.

 

The overdrive doesn't give a penalty on the hills.

 

Did the Chryco cars with o/d have different diff ratios in them? My 1939 Studebaker would have a 4.55:1 standard and 4.82:1 w. o/d..

 

BTW, your car looks really smart. Love it! It has a long and low look already.

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)
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I live in San Diego, not many hills to worry about, however driving the flat freeway would be nice at a speed fast enough to not have to plan an extra 1/2 hour + on any trip, also these idiots in California who drive on your butt while I cruise 50MPH are gona cause me to stop on the high way and choke a dude out because most new car owners dont understand our cars are classic and drive slower than their prius. 

 

If anyone knows weather I should leave 3 speed tranny and just do rear end or visa versa that would help. I think my rear end gears are 4.30 ratio and 3:55 would do better or maybe lower gearing

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If the 33 has the same type of Floating Power that my 32 has, putting in a different transmission may be a lot more difficult than you think.  My motor and transmission, as a unit, are suspended by two rubber mounts, one at the front of the engine and one at the rear of the transmission, on the free wheeling extension.  The bellhousing floats free, supported by a rubber pad on a removable crossmember.  The bellhousing does not attach to the frame with the usual ears found on most cars.  Trying to put something like a T-5 in is going to take some really creative engineering.  You would have to design a rear cradle rubber mount with the correct durometer rating that attached to the removable transmission cross piece, and the cross piece would probably have to be rebuilt or entirely redesigned and fabricated.  The Dodge 32 Floating Power has the entire motor and trans floating on rubber in a manner totally different than conventional  mounting systems and is not conducive to trans swaps.

Edited by Taylormade (see edit history)

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That car is a STUNNING ride....... :wub: ........and I LOVE the front suicide doors!

They make getting and out so much easier....... :)

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EDIT: Just saw Ply33's reply. Look into that!

 

Ok, well.... I'm gonna have to go on a few assumptions because I haven't seen under your car. I am also going from the point of view of changing as little as possible. That is because I have been investigating all these possibilities for my Pontiac, And I really like the Pontiac, and want to change it as little as possible, but my gears are just too low. You, I suspect, are at a huge advantage because I believe you have an open driveline. Also, Chrysler products had overdrive available quite early. This opens up some possibilities for you that just don't exist for me.

 

Lets start with overdrive. Overdrive is better. It just is. You have another gear, and 3 gears is far from ideal if you want to go modern highway speeds. It is common in Mopars just a little newer than yours to swap in a transmission with Overdrive. As I understand it, all you have to do is shorten the driveline.  Early transmissions like this with overdrive can be a bit hard to find. In the mid 30s, a Mopar transmission has shifter located WAY forward. They look like this: 

 

DSC05108.jpeg.06b53a15c47b4906b365032c31

 

As you can see, the shifter is eating into the bellhousing area. The emergency brake, not shown in that picture, is probably on the back of the transmission. I know of no other transmissions that look like this. If your transmission looks like this, there is a good possibility that you could get an early (1936-37?) Mopar overdrive trans in without much trouble. These overdrives are completely mechanical, and upshiift when they upshift. It wasn't as good as what followed, but WAY better than no overdrive. (Edit: Taylormade just posted about floating power. More investigation needed there.)

 

The next thing to come along was the overdrive everyone knows, with electrical controls. These are generally on the back of the BorgWarner T-95, T-96, a Mopar trans I don't know the ID of, and the Chevrolet/Saginaw 3 speed. This sort of overdrive is the greatest thing that ever happened to underpowered cars in my opinion. I could probably go on for paragraphs why... The trouble is, by the time they went to this, American cars had gone to column shift, and no floorshift examples exist. The only one that even has a top cover is the T-96. It is possible to convert a T-96 using a top cover from some other Borg Warner transmission, probably a Jeep. Not all combinations work. On some, the sliding parts of the shifter foul the overdrive case. You also have to leave part of the old side shift mechanism in place, as well as a cut off part of one of the old shift forks. It has been done successfully. Look around on the Studebaker Drivers Club forums. Here is a picture of a converted one.

 

IMG_0369.jpg

 

As you can see the shifter is back at the center (or slightly back) of the main transmission case. That may or may not help depending on how it is now. The overdrive adds length. Make sure you have room. There is also the e-brake (and potentially floating power) to deal with. It would also have to be adapted to the bellhousing and clutch (I think). There could be a fair amount of machine work here.

 

Keep in mind the T-96 is a light duty trans. Any of the others with this kind of overdrive are locked into the side-shift idea, and so you would need to have something like a Hurst shifter way back and to the left (or something else that works with a side shift transmission). It is likely to be WAY back.

 

Then there is the T-5. These are wonderful transmissions, 5 gears, Overdrive on fifth, lots of choices for gear ratios depending on which transmission you pick. You would have to adapt to the bellhousing and clutch. No doubt someone has done it, Aftermarket parts may exist. One potential gotcha: some of them are set up for an electronic speedometer possibly leaving you without a speedometer. Usually the S-10 case is used for old car conversions, as the shifter is the furthest forward and least likely to come up underneath the seat, but even it is quite a bit further back than you may want. It looks like this:

 

GW368H270

 

Yes, that is as far forward as you can get with a T-5. There is still the e-brake and or floating power to deal with. Four wheel drive rear cases exist for Jeep and S-10, the Jeep ones are way shorter in the tail, but are pretty much used up and impossible to get. They also required quite a bit of machine work to be usable at all. The S-10 is a lot easier to find, but is much longer. Both are used in conversions for torque tube cars (Chevrolet, etc.), so they arent just laying everywhere. It might get you a place to mount the e-brake? Not sure. You would have to set up the rear bearing/yoke/seal somehow If you went that route, more machine work....

 

S-10 s-l300.jpg

 

Jeep s-l300.jpg

 

Of course you could just change the rear axle to fix the e-brake problem, but then you wouldn't need to change the transmission.

 

Another possibility is a Mitchell Overdrive. These are cool little 2-speed (direct and overdrive) transmission you can purchase off the shelf for open driveline cars. This is a great idea. The only thing is, since it is an open driveline car, you would have to mount it in such a way that it did not transfer driveline (or overdrive) noise into the car.

 

Rearends in another post....

 

 

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)

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2 hours ago, Sactownog said:

Did they make replacement gears for 33 dodge back then

 

In your case, I would figure out EXACTLY what your axle is, how long it was in production, and hope that there is some newer car using the same axle design that had higher gears because it has smaller wheels. Off the shelf high gears were rare or non-existant because everyone drove slower back then, and they liked to always stay in high gear. Changing rear axle gears is the best way (other than an overdrive) if the parts exist. I won't hold my breath.

 

If you are going to change the whole rear axle (pretty easy in an open driveline leaf spring car), I would use a dropout-type rearend, but I would not use a 9 inch Ford. Any ratio is available, that is good, but they have a lot of pinion offset, and there is more drag than some other rearends. They also weigh a ton. There is an 8 inch ford axle with a ton of aftermarket support. I have not used it, but probably a better choice on a car with a little flathead 6.

 

Do not discount the 8 3/4 Mopar. Yes, they are more expensive. They are also smaller than a 9 inch ford and have less drag.

 

Either way you are probably looking at a custom housing and axles. Maybe not, but all Mopars from the 8 3/4 era have the whole engine and drivetrain set to the right in the car. I think Fords were like this as well. With a stock housing, even if you find something that almost fits, the driveline will probably be running at a goofy angle. That isn't the end of the world unless it hits a frame tunnel or something like that. Just make sure the u-joint angles are equal and opposite, plus a degree or two extra at the axle end to compensate for spring deflection under load. There is also the matter of your wheels. How do they attach? Wheel lugs? Is it the same bolt pattern as later Ford/Mopar?

 

For completeness I should mention that GM made a fairly stout dropout rearend from about 58-64 for Pontiac and Olds. It weighs more (I think) than the Mopar 8 3/4, and has less drag (I think) than any of them. Available ratios are fewer, and parts are expensive. This isn't likely to be a good choice unless it happened to be the right width, gear ratio, bolt pattern, etc.

 

P.S. that is a gorgeous car.

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)

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Studebaker Commander in 1939 had six gearbox choices! Yes, it is a real mess sorting it out in the parts book.

 

The first was the tail end of the 1938 box, standard and with o.d. - no kickdown though.

 

The third and fourth were the 1939 box with and w/o o.d., floor shift. I have an overdrive box like that. The fifth and sixth were the same boxes with column shift. But they weren't all the same either; some of the column shift boxes still had the floor shift upstand cast in the box but blanked off.

 

These Studebaker gearboxes we "on their side" and had the hand brake on the rear wheels. This lying down configuration meant the floor could be lower with no tunnel. They are all T88 gearboxes as was the 1938 box, although 2nd gear and the main shaft are different. I think the governor came in the 1940 o.d.

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

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If your thinking about putting in a 3 speed w/overdrive I have one out of a 36 Desoto I would be willing to part with.

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35 minutes ago, Uptowndodge said:

If your thinking about putting in a 3 speed w/overdrive I have one out of a 36 Desoto I would be willing to part with.

I will send you a message. 

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If you are in San Diego (as I am), sign up for the event in Vista, first Sunday in August.  About 300 cars show up and they close up the old downtown streets.  While they call it the Vista 'Rod Run', lots of restored and lightly modified cars show up.  Good family event and opportunity to swap stories with owners.  Contact the Vista Village Association to sign up.  I will have your 33's cousin, my 34 PE four-door sedan, with side mounts, in attendance and would be glad to talk Mopar with you.  SMB

smb34pe.jpg

1934-Plymouth-2.jpg

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You may need to get the drive shaft that goes with that 1936 o.d. transmission. It will be shorter and may fit your car with the o.d.

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1 hour ago, Scott Bonesteel said:

If you are in San Diego (as I am), sign up for the event in Vista, first Sunday in August.  About 300 cars show up and they close up the old downtown streets.  While they call it the Vista 'Rod Run', lots of restored and lightly modified cars show up.  Good family event and opportunity to swap stories with owners.  Contact the Vista Village Association to sign up.  I will have your 33's cousin, my 34 PE four-door sedan, with side mounts, in attendance and would be glad to talk Mopar with you.  SMB

smb34pe.jpg

1934-Plymouth-2.jpg

for sure I would like to talk with you, 

I am looking forward to the Vista Rod Run, I go every year, never had an old car like ours to take to it so my old custom truck always sat out on the street, now I plan to get there early and grab a good spot. I would be happy to meet with you. 

 

what part of San Diego are you in? I live in Oceanside. 

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1 hour ago, Spinneyhill said:

You may need to get the drive shaft that goes with that 1936 o.d. transmission. It will be shorter and may fit your car with the o.d.

is this transmission a direct bolt in? if so I would want to find one, I have been told I need a 38 or 39 from a chrysler or Dosoto. but I am open to all options to add a bit of speed and some syncro's to my drive, its a pain to only go max 45mph. 

 

I also am going to upgrade the brakes to Disk for the piece of mind that I can stop. 

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Disc brakes are fine, but remember the main thing....you only have about 4" of tread in each corner and THAT will determine how fast you actually stop. My 1931 DH6 stops on a nickel with the original brakes. Oops....here I go telling you to not change it up. Sorry.

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5 minutes ago, keiser31 said:

Disc brakes are fine, but remember the main thing....you only have about 4" of tread in each corner and THAT will determine how fast you actually stop. My 1931 DH6 stops on a nickel with the original brakes. Oops....here I go telling you to not change it up. Sorry.

how do you stop so well on Drum Brakes? mine have to be pumped (I have bleed them 3 times) and I still feel like I cant stop for anything unless I plan for it. I may just be used to disk brakes in my normal new car's but the Drums are scary at times and I have a family to keep safe. 

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Sounds like a better adjustment is due. Next trip to San Diego, I will look you up.

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3 minutes ago, Sactownog said:

how do you stop so well on Drum Brakes? mine have to be pumped (I have bleed them 3 times) and I still feel like I cant stop for anything unless I plan for it. I may just be used to disk brakes in my normal new car's but the Drums are scary at times and I have a family to keep safe. 

If I had wider tires, I could stop on a DIME! Maybe I should change it up to something like this?

180202_3672973341897_225010269_n.jpg

Edited by keiser31 (see edit history)
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