53-56 Caribbean

[alsancle]

I want to start a thread on the Caribbean.   We have had 5 of them going back 50 years.   We being my dad,  I've never got my own.   But right after I got out of school when I was walking around with 2 months of uncashed paychecks in my wallet (those were the days) I decided I had to have my own.  I really wanted a 53 and I looked at 4 or 5 cars over the course of a year before I gave up and bought a GT500 Shelby.    In retrospect,  the Shelby was a smarter idea, but I still keep my eyes open for my own 53 or 54.    I have two funny stories from the looking process.

 

1.  Tom Mix was a well known car guy that owned Foreign Motors in Mass for years.  He as friendly with my dad and had been advertising a complete 53 worthy of restoration for at least 5 years in Hemmings.  I want to say at the time he was asking around 5k.  At this time,  20k bought the best one in the world, and 10 brought a decent driving car.   So my dad calls Tom and we take a ride out to visit him.  Met him in his office and chit-chatted for a while before he took us out in the yard to see the car.  The yard in back was dirt and there were lots of cars in various states of falling apart.  It was really like a junk yard.  So we are walking around and Tom and my dad are reminiscing.  We are standing in the same spot for a couple of minutes and my dad asks Tom when we are going to get to see the car.  Tom says  "You are standing next to it".   1/2 buried in the ground was something that might have been a 53 Caribbean but honestly I couldn't tell.  We figured out pretty quick why he had been advertising it for that many years without selling it.   Always wondered if anyone rescued that car.  It was really far gone.

 

2. Another Hemming adventure was a car down in Georgia.   My dad swapped phone calls with the guy and he sent us 5 Polaroid pictures and the car looked great.   The seller told us we could drive down and drive the car 1000 miles home to Mass no problem.  This was also a 5-6k car.  So before we make the 20 something hour drive,  we figure we should get someone to look at it for us.   So one of my dad's buddies gets the idea to call the local chief of police and see if he can recommend anyone local to look at the car for us.  The Chief was a great guy and said he happened to love old cars and he would personally go inspect it for us.   So, he reports back that the car is a peach and we would have no problem driving it home.   So my brother,  dad and friend and I pile in to my dad's wagon and drive 22 hours straight down to this little town in the middle of no where down by the Florida/Georgia border.   The town reminded me of something out of a Burt Reynolds movie,  we stopped in to pay our respects to the Chief on the way in to town and he came to look at the car with us.   Well,  ended up being the chief was the seller's 2nd cousin and the car was almost as bad as Tom Mix's with the exception that it would run if you banged on the starter with a hammer that was always conveniently nearby.   We told the chief we need to go have lunch and think about the deal and promptly got out of town quick.   46 hours down and back,   30 minutes looking at the car.

 

The nice one we still have,  a 3 owner car from new with maybe 40k original miles.  The rougher car we sold at Hershey a dozen years ago and my dad bought that in the early 60s.  If you happen to own it reach out to me as I have some paperwork for it.

[alsancle]

I’m interested in.pictures but I don’t think that’s what you mean. ?

 

is it complete?  There are a few hard to find pieces on that car.

[Andrew S Harris]

I have just joined this forum & website.

 

i have some serious interest in your 1953 Caribbean - can you send me some photos - if it is still available for sale. I missed a poorer condition one about 2 months ago

my better email is - andrew@theharrisgroup.com.au

many thanks Andrew 

PS I am located in Australia - where is the car located?

[alsancle]

Tom Laferriere is selling a cool 53 with the big engine and manual transmission for 49,500:

 

http://www.tomlaferriere.com/listings/1953-packard-caribbean

 

[auburnseeker]

That would be money well spent up front for Tom's car.  You couldn't begin to restore one even in the shape the one you used to have was in for the money.   I can imagine the chrome on these will well exceed 10G. That car looks to have really nice chrome.  Sorted mechanics can easily bring 5 to 10 G to the table as well.  It all adds up real quick.  

[Andrew S Harris]

Thanks for the reply auburnseeker - your points are very valid - Tom’s car looks to have a non-original engine & g/box though

i would like to see the Richelieu motors car if it is still for sale 

[alsancle]

The green with primer car I posted above had the 359 engine.  It does make a difference driving and I'll bet the stick is a big improvement too.  I think it is actually a wash on value and I tend to be a purist.   Btw,  if you bought that car from us at Hershey back 10-12 years ago, reach out to me as I have paperwork and pictures of it from the 60s.

 

I really wish they had put the big engine in it from the factory like they did in 54.

[auburnseeker]

Hopefully the other one is in a little better storage than some of the cars.  They are in the Northeast and even inside, if unheated, can have significant potmetal and sheetmetal deterioration.  55 years in storage is not always a good thing,  55 years of not running or moving will guarantee a heavy mechanical restoration is probably needed,  but we can hope for the best.  Would love to see pictures of it. 

i'm quite a bit of a purist myself,  but I will tell you the upgraded rear and full flow 1949 Hudson engine with twin H carbs,  really makes my Hudson pleasurable to drive.  If you really want to drive the cars,  the upgrades (if period) I think as Alsancle mentioned don't affect the value much and can often be changed if that is really your thing.  99 Percent of the people wouldn't know anyways.  

I won't tell you the number of people in their 60's and 70's that don't even know Hudson made a pickup.  You definitely know they aren't going to beable to tell you that's the wrong engine. 

I think you will find the same with the Packard.  

If it wasn't for the 30's Packards being so flashy they stick in peoples minds when seen,  most people probably wouldn't even know Packard made cars.  Didn't they make computers back in the old days? 

[alsancle]

I’m not 100% sure but I don’t think there is an external way to distinguish the 5 main from the 9 main engine.

[Owen_Dyneto]

Easy to distinguish a 5-main from a 9 main 327 or the 359, just count the main bearing oil gallery plugs down low on the manifold side of the engine, there will be either 5 or 9.

[Andrew S Harris]

Many thanks gents .. I have made contact with Tom and will carefully look over the info and let you all know 

[auburnseeker]

I've said it before.   Sell the cars and build a garage.  Lucky the zoning guys haven't gotten after you.  More than likely because you are grandfathered in.  They were going to give me crap before because I had an unregistered car outside in my rural town.  A commercial garage at that. It wasn't even my car,  it was friend that had no place ot keep it.  I do admit at one time i had a parts car outside as well,  but that was processed and the remnants scrapped. If I can't keep it inside,  I won't keep it.  Even my well worn,  probably never stored inside before I bought it 80 foot boom lift is inside,  along with my well used commercial chipper. 

The Northeast is merciless on anything left outside that contains iron or some sort of metal.  

Hopefully you find a buyer with very deep pockets to save it,  but I would bet it has a better chance of becoming a parts car as these just don]t seem valuable enough to restore one in this condition when others can be had reasonable on the current market.

[alsancle]

If you could pull it out and power wash it I think you can find a buyer.  Not at 25k (we sold the running driving green one for 24k) but somebody will buy it.  These and the 53 Skylark are my favorite 50s cars and I don’t think I’m completely alone.

[auburnseeker]

I would powerwash it very gently as I think you may find more holes than you think are there.  I had a 53 Buick Super I rescued from a farm yard that had been covered in much the same way,  after they pulled it out of a wood floor barn,  then covered it with tarps to the ground not to let it breath for about 7 years.  It was original paint and almost the same color.   Upon real close inspection,  after I removed the original carpet and cleaned everything up best I could without power washing it had alot of creep rot in every nook and cranny.  I bet 20 percent of that car would have disappeared if you sent it to a sand blaster,  including a good 70 percent of the still existant floors.  I took about 25 percent of them out just cleaning and scraping them with a brush and chipping hammer.  

Hopefully you can find a buyer while there is still something left. 

Edited June 23, 2018 by auburnseeker (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

There are alot more treasures out there than you think.  Many fortunately are properly stored away. That's why no one knows about them.   I have and always made sure friends that had cars they wanted me to store even outside,  had a plan.  You fix them and get them on the road or you sell them,  because sitting outside is killing them,  not saving them,  when another owner down the road,  can properly store them if they had been liquidated.  That Desoto Roadster that was for sale rotting into the ground because it was saved and bid a few times to what was more than a fair price,  is a good example.    

I walked by several cars that were worth so much money according to their owners that they never sold,  only to finally be liquidated when they became just short of junk as a kid it made me sick and left a strong impression in my mind.  I wasn't going to be one of those guys that saved old cars like that.   I might have a little different frame of mind if it wasn't the northeast.  Maybe the southwest desert it wouldn't be so much of an issue.  I could have alot more cars if I wanted.  that 100 G I just dumped on my garage and still going would buy lots of cars to save,  for someone to junk or auction off for scrap in the future at my estate sale. 

Keep them for another 50 years.  They won't be worth more and by then I'm sure legislatures will be sure to find a way to get rid of the grandfather clauses that now exist if it fits their itinerary. 

[Andrew S Harris]

Hmmm..a most interesting proposition...I think the car should be saved - not just for parts, but the costs to do so will be substantial as many of you have pointed out...but she is complete and original!

If you look at the Tom Laferriere car at $49,500, aside the changed box & engine - this provides a difficult benchmark for the starting purchase price. So much will depend on the hidden stuff??

There is little doubt that the Buyers all up costs and time to restore will exceed the $49,500, but that's the normal outcome right!

if I am correct in my assumption, the car is in Quebec, so I would be prepared to have a qualified party come and inspect the car? Would that work? Please advise.

I agree forget the sand-blasting - will do way more damage

[auburnseeker]

So if you don't sand blast,  you leave all the rust to goob over with undercoat? That car needs to be gutted to the barest form dipped or blasted then start from their.  Find some replacement chrome,  because that plating is going to run you 20G or more.  Give me Tom's car in a heartbeat and I'll be driving with smiles for a long time,  while the buyer of that m,ess is still trying to find all the parts that are too deteriorated to reasonably restore.  Unless you really enjoy bringing something back from the dead,  then Tom's car is world's ahead. It's alot of work to make a car like that look right again.  There is alot of welding to be done, and unless you butt those seams and finish them,  it's always going to be a patched up rust bucket. 

You are going to find all the interior chrome looks just as bad.  Hopefully the seat springs aren't shot as well. Top frame seized, hydraulic system completely shot with pistons seized and rams badly pitted.

It will obviously need a new interior as well.  I imagine a Caribbean had to be leather.  I would budget 10G for that on the cheap end.  

When does original count if everything has to be restored and is degraded to the point this is?  It will no longer be original it will be restored.  Original counts when it's a survivor.   or maybe when referring to the mechanics of some crazy low production high performance muscle car. 

Sorry I just don't want people looking at things with rose colored glasses only to wake up with a bad hangover when the dust all settles. 

I'm familiar with Northeast cars like this.  They don't clean up,  they get worse when you dig down deep.  It's a nature of the geography lots of nasty surprises in store.

There is a reason guys spend 2000 to 3000 a car to ship them to the east from the west.  Not just because they want to keep the truckers in business.

[alsancle]

I'm not picking it apart.  I LOVE it!  But I think you might need to moderate your price a bit.   There are guys that will buy a project just to get on the ladder and "payment plan" with a car they otherwise can't afford.  There will be a buyer for your car as 53 Caribbeans are COOL and somebody will want it.   But don't let it stay outside much longer.

[alsancle]

I always liked the 53 better than the 54 but now I'm wondering if I should rethink that based on rarity and the 9 main 359?

 

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/packard/caribbean/2126417.html

 

[alsancle]

Speaking of 54 Caribbean's this and my dad and I at xmas 5 years ago.  If gave this to me as a wall hanger (it lights up).   Around 1963 he had a 54 that he had taken some parts off of and was storing at his buddies junk yard.  You can guess what happened to the car.  He had bad luck storing cars there.

 

 

[Andrew S Harris]

To Richelieu motors - can I arrange an inspection of his car? I can then determine purchase options

thanks just to know where etc 

[Andrew S Harris]

Have you seen the 53 Caribbean for sale via Hemings in Florida -apparently a hurricane damaged car looks like the building collapsed on it plus some water damage

 

[auburnseeker]

1 hour ago, Andrew S Harris said:

Have you seen the 53 Caribbean for sale via Hemings in Florida -apparently a hurricane damaged car looks like the building collapsed on it plus some water damage

 

That car is rough if you look close.  In a few more years it will be like the Eldorado he has for sale. The dash has big rust holes in the ends from recent exposure.  About the last place I would want to buy a convertible stored outside with no top for over 10 years with the other damage it has is Florida.  I can only imagine that once you scoop out whatever is left of the floors and interior hopefully the frame and maybe a support or two are good underneath.  Shame someone didn't put that or the Eldorado inside after the building collapse or sell them in a more timely manner.  

[auburnseeker]

Here is the link to the ad.  I couldn't pull any of the photos from the listing. 

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/packard/caribbean/2135056.html

[auburnseeker]

Actually they are both a mess,  but I see alot of parts on this one to fix yours, that would cost astronomical sums of money to restore your pieces. Complete may be good,  but when a bunch of stuff is just patterns,  it doesn't always mean alot.  Can you imagine dropping the pot metal off your car off at a plater and telling them to make it look new?  I'm sure there is some guy that would do it and he works by the hour even if he just uses your part as a template you will have one piece back at a time at a mind boggling cost, because I'm sure he gets more than 5.00 an hour. 

I think 100 percent complete is really beneficial when the car is a really obscure one that no parts are available for or in some cases even reference as to how the parts are assembled.

Both of these Caribbeans remind me of a project wooden boat with a rotten hull.  Exciting to buy and brag about owning but glad when the day comes you can finally cut the project and unending check writing loose. 

I will complement you on one thing though.  Seems you have taken very good care of the other Packard you have for sale.  That is a very nice car. 

[auburnseeker]

I've made it a point,  to only save cars I can actually save.  With proper storage for the long run,  or if it was to keep them from getting crushed,  moved along in a short manner so they don't deteriorate. <My sweet spots with auburn would be 31-33.  But to let one just languish until it becomes garbage,  when another guy could have appreciated it and atleast stored it well if not restored it is just being a hoarder.   Even years ago when they could be had cheap,  someone would have snatched an open Auburn up. 

[K8096]

Which DV Stutz was it?    

[auburnseeker]

Well I still won't thank your uncle. You can read him the riot act for me.  The only thing they saved was them from being crushed but I wonder how many would have been actually "saved" by collectors if they hadn't been snatched up and hoarded by your uncle.  I know my Dad back in the 60's would have loved to have had one of these cars I'm sure your uncle got near free or on the really cheap and would have atleast kept it inside as he always managed to have some garage space he could borrow or of his own to properly store one and work on a little when he could.  So there were lots of other guys like my Dad that I'm sure got beat out by your uncle who was Hoarding them.  Ok I don't want a guy to save cars any more,  I want him to properly preserve them.  

[auburnseeker]

But if he left them outside under a tarp and they disintegrated into the ground.  He DID NOT save them.  If he was pulling them out of the scrap heap with a crane right before they were headed into the crusher then he saved them.,  If he bought them off someone long before they hit the scrap yard then neglected them to the point of now being truly a pile of scrap iron Oxide He did NOT save them.  What I'm saying is there were lots of other guys not even just my father but other car guys out there that I'm sure would have ponied up the money to buy some of these.  It's not like they were dragged out in the middle of the street so that everyone had a chance to see and buy them I'm sure. 

[trimacar]

So, he's to be commended for LITERALLY saving the cars from the crusher!  Yes, it would have been nice for all the cars to have been put in an insulated, heated and cooled, building, but that didn't happen.  I don't see any reason to beat up RMC about it, wasn't his fault, and at least cars are there that wouldn't have been otherwise, as he states.

 

I'm sure a lot of people thought that he had a few screws loose, trying to save cars in the early days.  Myself, in the 1960's I was that "crazy kid with the old cars", interesting how that changed to the "wise collector of valuable old cars".....

[auburnseeker]

Well if RMC is still trying to save them,  refusing to price them at prices any one will pay so they continue to rot into the ground is not saving them still.   25G for the Caribbean??????  I'll take the Incorrect runner that looks wonderful for 50G even if I have to Mortgage the house to do it if I was in the Market. 

Yes your Uncle's Packard is really nice.  It's a 4 door 50's Packard.  They aren't big dollar cars.  I could be wrong but not many buyers lining up to pay 20G for one. An auction tells you one thing.  What it's worth on the open market. 

I doubt everyone was pulled from the jaws of the crusher and I would still highly doubt he was drastically overpaying for anything and to the volume of cars he seems to have.

 I was the car crazy kid as well and mowed neighbors lawns and shoveled their walks,  changed light bulbs etc.  to use their garage space to properly store my cars.   Any that lost their space got sold as I didn't want to watch them deteriorate to a pile of crap.