1924 dodge transmission gear oil

[Bob Zetnick]

I know I have seen info. on this before, but now can't find it. I've been having a tough time double clutching and I notice some thin oil dripping every so often from my transmission...makes me think that the proper oil isn't in transmission currently. I've looked at my owner's manual and nothing is really said much about transmission oil. On these boards it looks like people recommend anywhere from 600W to 1500W oil. Looks like drain plug is at bottom of transmission. Infill location is at a plate (w/ cork gasket)at top of transmission. Transmission takes 5 pts or whatever it takes to just go over at top of idler gear or through a top bolt hole at side of transmission that is an access point for idler gear. I think that's all I've interpolated from manual and this forum. Are there other recommendations and is 600W oil good enough? Thanks!

[cahartley]

My experience suggests the oil needs to be close to tar....... 

[RichBad]

have fun

 

[Bob Zetnick]

16 hours ago, RichBad said:

have fun

 

Thanks! That was the post...maybe I'll try the 1500W

 

[Spinneyhill]

Does this stuff adequately lubricate the parts with small clearances, such as the bushes inside the countershaft gear? I think it might not.

[Bob Zetnick]

5 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Does this stuff adequately lubricate the parts with small clearances, such as the bushes inside the countershaft gear? I think it might not.

What do you use? I'm still learning about this car.

 

[Spinneyhill]

I don't know about 1924 Dodge Brothers vehicles. The thread above has a post or two that says the countershaft gear is not driven when in 3rd gear, so I won't comment other than to remind you the oil has more than one purpose - lubrication plus perhaps being thick enough to work on the counter gear.

 

I would like to see a couple of drawings of the gearbox inside to see how it works.

 

This topic talks of semi-fluid grease!

http://www.dodgebrothersclub.org/phpbbforum/viewtopic.php?t=275

Edited May 6, 2018 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[R.White]

Perhaps it would be better to not use semi fluid grease as it has an EP constituent which I am (reliably?) informed can attack yellow metal such as layshaft bushes.  It has crossed my mind that in an old gearbox with straight cut gears and no synchromesh the clearances are perhaps bigger and the shear less than in  later designs.  Perhaps this is why heavy oil can be used. I fully appreciate the lubrication risk in using a heavy oil but may I suggest that this would only be a problem in later transmissions.  The reality of these old "crash" gearboxes is that even with new bearings and decent mating surfaces the noise produced is not something that would be acceptable these days.  I have learned to ignore the racket and just get on with it.

 

My biggest problem is I sometimes forget where I left second gear.?  

[Bob Zetnick]

13 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

I don't know about 1924 Dodge Brothers vehicles. The thread above has a post or two that says the countershaft gear is not driven when in 3rd gear, so I won't comment other than to remind you the oil has more than one purpose - lubrication plus perhaps being thick enough to work on the counter gear.

 

I would like to see a couple of drawings of the gearbox inside to see how it works.

 

This topic talks of semi-fluid grease!

http://www.dodgebrothersclub.org/phpbbforum/viewtopic.php?t=275

Here are the drawings of the transmission from my manual.

[Bob Zetnick]

4 hours ago, R.White said:

Perhaps it would be better to not use semi fluid grease as it has an EP constituent which I am (reliably?) informed can attack yellow metal such as layshaft bushes.  It has crossed my mind that in an old gearbox with straight cut gears and no synchromesh the clearances are perhaps bigger and the shear less than in  later designs.  Perhaps this is why heavy oil can be used. I fully appreciate the lubrication risk in using a heavy oil but may I suggest that this would only be a problem in later transmissions.  The reality of these old "crash" gearboxes is that even with new bearings and decent mating surfaces the noise produced is not something that would be acceptable these days.  I have learned to ignore the racket and just get on with it.

 

My biggest problem is I sometimes forget where I left second gear.?  

This is the stuff I was thinking of using from Restoration Supply. Looks like some people add grease to 600w, so that it is like molasses. This description says good w/ yellow metals and the "pour" sounds right. Just didn't want to gum things up and wanted to check before ordering.

 

 1500 Gear Oil - This is the thickest and heaviest oil we can pour. It pours like molasses and it will flow. Great for early transmissions and rear axles. Good with yellow metals.

[R.White]

In the first diagram you will see what is described as "high speed sliding gear".  This is the gear which takes all the initial load in first and second gear and as a result can get pretty badly worn. (I expect this is responsible for the noise which can be considerable even if it is in good condition). An unusual featutre of this sliding gear is that when you change into top it slides into and is concealed within the speedo drive gear and consequently looses direct connection with the layshaft gears.  As I understand it, the theory is that the oil being thick will impart motion to the lay cluster of gears sufficient to raise or lower their speed to match.  I am not sure if this is how it is supposed to work and as always  I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong about something.

Edited May 6, 2018 by R.White (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

Thank you Bob. Very good pictures. I see now the problem is in restarting the countershaft gear on going from 3rd into neutral. It is also easy to see you don't really need the clutch to go from 2nd to 3rd: just release the load and move the lever to slide the two gears of 2nd out of mesh.

 

That type of gearbox will be noisy at higher speeds in all gears except 3rd because they are spur gears. These gears make a line contact and meshing of each pair of teeth is sudden and total, so there is an impact load. This impact causes the noise and because of this impact loading, these gears cannot be run at high load and high speed. Very small misalignment will increase the noise.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[MikeC5]

I tried filling with the Resto Supply 1500W stuff which is very thick and still wasn't able to double clutch a 3rd to 2nd downshift.  I guess it depends how much grinding you can stand before the the countershaft gets spinning fast enough.

[R.White]

I took the Dodge out this morning and experimented with the gear changing.  I like to get into top gear as soon as I can. I  just use first gear to get the car rolling then make an early change into second. If I am on the flat or going down hill, the change into third is usually achieved without any drama. I usually stay in top for as long as I can and only change down when going quite slowly.  Then the trick seems to be to keep in second while gathering momentum again and ignore the howling coming from the box.  You need to take your time with the change up to third but accept that you may have slowed down perhaps more than you would ideally like. Try to avoid placing too much load on the engine if you can. 

 

Changing up requires a degree of calculation.  If the road is going down hill it is easy.  If up hill, then not so easy as you need to decide whether to  stay in second and put up with the noise until reaching the top of the hill or  change up but risk slowing down to the point where top gear is no longer sustainable.  These cars are completely different to what we are used to these days and I think it requires a change of mindset to get the hang of it.

 

Ray.

[cahartley]

So Ray........does this mean you're KEEPING your Dodge?....... ?

[cahartley]

5 hours ago, MikeC5 said:

I tried filling with the Resto Supply 1500W stuff which is very thick and still wasn't able to double clutch a 3rd to 2nd downshift.

 

I don't get it.........as I mentioned earlier in this thread I never have trouble down shifting.......it's like these things have minds of their own....... 

[Spinneyhill]

Is MikeC5 a bit timid on the throttle and cahartley a demon on it when shifting down? It seems to me you need to really feed it the fat while in neutral when changing down to 2nd, to speed up that gear through the viscosity of the oil. The countershaft gear will be pretty sluggish with thick oil too.

[R.White]

3 hours ago, cahartley said:

So Ray........does this mean you're KEEPING your Dodge?....... ?

 

Good question.  The car keeps thinking of ways to piss me off.  Yesterday, after a 12 mile drive when she behaved herself, I left her standing on the drive basking in the spring sunshine.  When I tried starting, the battery had gone flat. It was down to 4 volts.  The amp meter reads charge and the battery is quite recent. I just get the feeling someone is trying to tell me something!?

 

Ray.

Edited May 7, 2018 by R.White (see edit history)

[Rogillio]

I bought the heaviest weight oil I could find and within days had a puddle of oil under my car.  My mechanic said to use grease.  I did this and it has worked well. 

[Bob Zetnick]

Thanks you all for all the information. I have no problem downshifting....mainly going from 1st to 2nd as it's hard to have a good feel of how far right to push the gearshift...once I'm in 2nd it's easy to go to 3rd as I'm already on that "side"....maybe I need to practice more, but kinda hard to practice in a big city w/ traffic and plenty of stop signs, lights and speed bumps...or maybe that is good practice   Anyway, I can shift my '29 easily...maybe it's just the earlier transmission, so thought a heavier gear "oil" might help out. I just worry that "putting up w/ the noise" that I am eventually going to strip the gears....again, maybe more practice needed.

[Spinneyhill]

4 hours ago, Bob Zetnick said:

I just worry that "putting up w/ the noise" that I am eventually going to strip the gears..

If they are in good condition, they will be noisy. They are spur gears, which are noisy, esp. at higher speeds. Misalignment through wear may contribute some noise too.

[cahartley]

22 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Is MikeC5 a bit timid on the throttle and cahartley a demon on it when shifting down? It seems to me you need to really feed it the fat while in neutral when changing down to 2nd, to speed up that gear through the viscosity of the oil. The countershaft gear will be pretty sluggish with thick oil too.

 

I had a '29 Model A so I'm used to crash boxes.......  .......but the A shifted with no problem.

It seems everyone has difficulty between different gears than I do.

The problem with my car is between 2nd and 3rd unless I get it into 3rd at about 8 MPH....... 

 

[Spinneyhill]

On 5/7/2018 at 8:22 AM, Spinneyhill said:

t is also easy to see you don't really need the clutch to go from 2nd to 3rd: just release the load and move the lever to slide the two gears of 2nd out of mesh.

I think I am wrong here. To get into 3rd, the 1st and reverse sliding gear has to go inside the speedo drive gear. There must be teeth inside that gear and the first & reverse gear mates and locks inside them. This will lock the input pinion and the mainshaft to transfer drive straight through.

[dwollam]

Don't even bother using 1st gear in these 4cyl DB's unless on a steep hill just starting out.

I have had trannys I went through with a fine tooth comb and they wouldn't shift no matter what unless sitting still. Others just like it work fine. My current one in my '22 Screenside is a '26 tranny with the '22 top. I 1st put 90w gear oil in it to "flush it out" but it shifted so well I continue to run 90w to this day. All my others have 600w. I just got lucky on this one I guess.

But really, give up on 1st gear, it's just not needed. You are nearly stopped again before you can get it into 2nd.

 

Dave