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38 Century Driveability Hiccups...


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Aren't 37 points a single part you just screw down to the breaker plate? If so, you almost never have to change the tension.

 

The distributor NEEDS to go back in the way it was before, or everything needs to be changed to match the book (pump shaft position, distributor position, wire position on cap, etc...

 

If it was running you don't need to change it.

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Hello Spinneyhill,

 

Do you mean Hylomar Universal Blue? I also have something called Dirko sealant that is supposed to be the best but have not tried yet... Whatever I use, I do not want to do this fuel pump job a 4th time! Do you use the secondary gasket with your pump as well? Seems to be made out of leather...

 

 

 

Sealant Dirko Black 70ml 006.552 Silicone Elring Von -60°C Bis +300°C

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Yeah, that thing isn't the gasket. maybe something to help keep fuel splash back when the diaphragm fails, and minimize oil contamination? I have seen a thing like that somewhere.

 

There is no magic to the actual gasket, is there? IIRC it is the same one used by many American cars through the 70s and beyond. Any parts store in the US will have it. Try "1975 Chevrolet 350" or "1970 ford 390" or "1978 Plymouth 318" or almost anything else you can think of. If they don't have it, or don't know they do, look over on the wall with all the Edelbrock and Mr. Gasket stuff. There will be one there.

 

I like original bolts, but if they are suspect, theres nothing wrong with using new grade 8. That will end any bolt problems (but grade 5 would have been fine). Tighten them to spec, whatever that is (no more). Loctite prevents oil leaking out the threads, if the holes go all the way through.

 

 

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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I made my own gaskets out of 1/16 material since the thinner one provided by the vendor was not good enough... I do have grade 8 bolts which I will be using... I just want to select the best sealant available to avoid doing this again! There is no way to get a torque wrench into the small space that you have... Barely enough room to get a ratchet with a sort extension in there... It is a real PITA of a job, especially with the oil filter canister on top that must be removed to access and retrieve the pump... There must be a sure way to prevent a leak!

 

Must say I was a little hasty with my statement regarding the torque wrench... It might be possible to get it in there; if so, would 25-30 lbs bee too much for 3/8 bolts?

Edited by philipj (see edit history)
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If and when you have a gasket that will not stop leaking no matter what, try this: Cut a new gasket from an oil filter box. This is the worst sort of rubbish cardboard imaginable. You may notice the ink crumbling off as you cut it with a scissors. The card on the back of a cheap notepad is another possible source if there is no oil filter box available..

 

Spray this new gasket with high temperature engine paint. Do both sides and let it drink all the paint it will. Lay it out in the sun, and when it gets to the point where it is sticky or tacky, put it on CLEAN surfaces and tighten it down to spec. Give the paint some time to set up before you use it, then double-check that it is tight. Works on engine oil or antifreeze. It even works where aluminum bolts to cast iron, though logic dictates it should not.

 

This is a throwback to the old days. Really, there is no good reason you should need to do this in 2018. Indian head is still available (for the moment). Hylomar is still available. Silicone that actually works is available. Fuel pumps usually seal ok with a dry gasket.....

 

If you ever get really stuck and nothing is working, it is an option.

 

 

 

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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For what it is worth I usually glue fuel pump gaskets to the engine with Indian Head, and run the other side dry, or with the tiniest, thinnest (cannot tell it is there) bit of silicone. If the pump has to come off, the gasket stays in place and can be reused.

 

If your gasket sealer, whatever it is, is still slippery when you tighten the bolts, the gasket will try to squirt out and probably split. If you have sealer on both sides consider just snugging the bolts down, and do your final tightening after the sealer has had some time to set up.

 

Don't overdo it on gasket thickness. It might reduce fuel pump stroke.

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After reading this I am considering the Permatex #2 aviation sealant... I think it is similar to the Indian head shellac, only a little denser. I will apply it to both sides of the gasket to be sure and install. I do not care to reuse the gasket since I make my own. I just don't want it to leak! This small stuff sure can drive you insane!!!!!

You can tell I have already lost my patience with it after installing it twice...

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My Hylomar is a bit older than that but seems to be the same. Permatix #2 is similar in action. Loctite make a non-setting goo too. Whatever is available. It sticks it all together as well as flows a bit and fills any small dents or depressions.

 

Just make sure the surfaces and threads are clean and oil free. Also make sure the face of the pump is flat - you might have to remove the arm for that - and that it is not cracked, as well as the arm pivot pin not being worn in the pump housing.

 

A leather gasket would work too. Remember they used to make single lip leather oil seals and they worked for quite a long time as long as they were clean and lubricated.

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)
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The biggest difference between #2 Permatex and Indian Head is that Indian Head hardens. Indian head is great for gluing something in place. It will never move once dry. #2 Permatex stays soft. Great if that is what you want. Both are shellac as far as I know. Hylomar is an anaerobic sealant more in the vein of Loctite.

 

Indian head generally shouldn't be used on both sides of a gasket, unless you intend for it never to come apart.

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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On 4/27/2018 at 7:02 PM, philipj said:

valve adjustment as a cause of a misfire...

A SUPPER SIMPLE WAY TO LOOK AT A MISS IS HOLD A PIECE OF PAPER UP TO TAIL PIPE CLOSE AND SEE IF IT SUCKS IT UP TO THE END TIGHT. A INTAKE OVER LAP CAN BE SEEN REAL EASY THIS WAY . ---STICKY VALVES --  KEEP DRIVING IT FOR A WILE .   KYLE

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I'm @$%! fuming since after installing the pump a third time with a new leather gasket plus the Permatex aviation sealant, it still leaks out of the bottom!! It does not have to run to leak, BUT I think I may know what the problem is...If I am able to flex a little of gasket material on the bottom of the pump and see the oil come out, it tells me that as the pump is tightened it tilts upwards, letting the oil out... I even loosened it up, and the same result, the oil still drips out...

 

Another clue to the incorrect pump for the motor is the fact that there is quite a bit of space on the upper mounting surface of the block not covered by the present pump when it is installed... I should have noticed that detail before.

 

Yet it is still interesting that my original pump, very similar to this one but with a thicker mounting flange did not seem to leak despite still being the incorrect one? So, the question is, do I try to find the "correct" pump for a 1947 engine, or do I get my old one rebuilt and hope that it does not leak... @%$!!

Edited by philipj (see edit history)
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The pump should try to tilt, however if it is bottoming out and will not snug down, that suggests the arm may be incompatible and bottoming out. It really argues for getting the correct year pump, unless someone can verify that the pump you have (is it 38?) will work on the 1947 engine.

 

It also matters where the fuel pump cam is in its travel. If it is all the way up, it is extremely hard to mount a pump. That shouldn't prevent you from doing it though.

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If interested,i run a 263 engine in my 38 special and had no problems to install the small 38 pump onto this Engine...because it looks cleaner than the big,also stored ,52 pump.

Had installed it only with a homemade paper gasket because of the, upper discribed, lil differend surfaces of Block and pump.

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If you can't snug the pump up to the engine, you have the wrong arm. Tell us about the fuel pumps again or point to the topic in which you did.

 

Perhaps post a picture of each pump from the same angle showing the arms. We should be able to see the difference.

 

The Hollander shows 1936-38 60, 80, 90 fuel pump is interchangeable with only '39 60, 80 & 90. 1940-51 60, 70, 80, 90 pumps interchange. This pump will work on '38 40, '39 40, '40-51 40 & 50 with changed rocker arm.

 

The original pump on your 1938 car should be a 1521838, series AB, type 422. The '39 pump was also a series AB, 1523868, type 518. The '40-51 pump was a series AJ (my AC book finishes there), 1537338, type 530. Early 1940 60s had a type 520 pump.

 

Update: Just looked back and see you have a 1947 engine. A 1938 pump will not work. None of the interchanges show it will.

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)
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Back to the electrical issues, I made special caps to insulate the spark plug connectors from the cover, all wiring and ground connections are tight on the voltage regulator, and I still have an intermittent miss! Can a coil act up and produce this type of condition, maybe when hot? Do you guys know the resistance values for the AC Delco 6 volt coils? Thank you...

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With the ohm meter set up on the 20K scale, (Not sure if this is right) the primary coil reads 0.00 and the secondary coil reads 4.48 with the coil still in the vehicle... Granted the car was running about 3 hrs ago... On a spare that I have the primary reads 0.00 and the secondary reads 3.48...

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If you have a spare coil, try it. It is possible for a coil to have problems that only occur when it heats up. If you have done everything else in the ignition system and still have a problem, changing the coil certainly is worth trying. 

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Short of pulling all my hair out, I will swap out the coils... However, the fact that I inherited the coil from the previous owner makes me wonder about the outcome... I will test the one in the car again tomorrow when it is completely cold and see if I get the same numbers...

Edited by philipj (see edit history)
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Please take 10 minutes and swap the coils. Then take the car for a test drive. Testing it cold still won't tell you that it is good when current has been flowing through it for a while. You can swap it and take a test drive and know. Any amount of testing with a meter won't tell you if it is causing your problem or not.

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Well, I can say that it runs much, much better than before... I even replaced the wire from the coil to the distributor... I am almost there. I wonder what else I can do to make it completely smooth. Is there such a thing? I hope I am not being unrealistic about it, but I have no other vehicle to compare it to...

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If you have all of the ignition components in good shape with good clean connections, proper timing and a good correctly adjusted carburetor, it should run smoothly. I drove my 1937 Century for about 1000 miles in the past couple of weeks, most of that a two day 702 mile trip. It is a dependable good running car. Good fuel supply, preferably with ethanol free fuel, is also helpful.

 

Have you had the carburetor professionally rebuilt and adjusted? If you have solved your electrical problems, fuel supply and carburetion are about the only other potential problem sources.  

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On a 6 volt coil the primary winding should be reading  1.5 ohms when set at  200.     The secondary should be reading from 4000  - 10,000 when set at the 20k  

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Hello Rod, 

Thank you for the complete and detailed information regarding the coil, very useful. I will check what I removed from the car today (AC Delco 328) as well as what it is in the car that I had for a spare (AC Delco 1115328) 

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Hello Matthew,

I am trying to get to the point where you are today, getting into the car and driving it without any problems; make it 100% reliable... Every ignition component is brand new and everything is clean... As you may know, I have ordered the correct fuel pump for the motor (AC#530) which I hope to have by the weekend. As for the carburetor, I just did an initial clean up to the AAV-26 replacement that I will use as opposed to the 7-57 since it has the hand throttle option... I do have some questions, but I will open up another topic for that alone...

 

You raise a good point about having the carburetor professionally rebuilt...The only place I have found online that actually tests the carburetors and seems knowledgeable is www.carburetorsandmore.com from La Porte TX. Their rebuilding prices start @$200 though.. I will be contacting them with the specific model and see what I get for pricing... If you know of anyone else doing similar work I welcome the information... Thank you.

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Philip,     New coil showing 17k  on the secondary  and 1.2 ohm on the primary.   Ensure you get a coil that says  with resistor as this gets the primary resistance down to the  1.5 ohms which is suitable for a 6 volt system.   My 1920 Buick would idle nicely, but run very poorly and smoked on higher revs.   Checking the secondary  resistance and  couldn,t even get a reading.  Surprised the car even ran.

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The car never really smoked, just seemed to miss intermittently around 20-25mph then at 40mph, then nothing at all... Since then I have found loose wires in the voltage regulator and replaced all electrical components including the coil (NOS AC Delco 1115328). It runs smoother than ever, but I still can detect a minor blip...

Edited by philipj (see edit history)
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I could recommend the local guy who rebuilt my carburetor. He is also an AACA Member. He flow tests them to ensure they are absolutely as they were originally. His shop is probably cleaner than my kitchen. If you think $200 is a lot of money for a carburetor rebuild, you probably won't want to use him. If you do want to consider him,  his website is: http://www.mycarburetordoctor.com/

 

I did a Google search for Carburetor Rebuilder in your town and it looks like there may be someone local who specializes in carburetor rebuilding. There is something to be said for an old local guy who can check it and fine tune it after it is on the car. I actually think that the original settings are probably not really quite correct due to the difference in fuel quality now and then. 

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I appreciate the referral... At this point, I am not very happy with the feedback from carburetorsandmore.com. Despite their listed price (which I later found to be $225) for a 2 barrel carburetor, I got quoted $300.00 (For being a "rare older unit" ) plus the additional charge (unknown) to remove a portion of the linkage that it is not original; and since apparently he may have felt I put him on the spot about pricing, he stated that they "We have all the jobs like yours that we can handle" 

 

Shame he could not just say, my mistake, no problem, there will be an extra $50 to take care of the linkage... See, I would not have a problem with that. Not trying to cause trouble, yet I don't care for a disingenuous inconclusive answer... 

Guess I will do a local search as well and see what I can find... As you say, sometimes is better for someone local to do the final adjustments if you're paying a premium for a carburetor rebuild...

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Yeah, I took a look at his site. Lots of no this, no that, etc. Kinda offputting. Also it looks like they are concentrating on carbs from the 1960s.

 

Have you thought about rebuilding it yourself? It's not difficult at all.  Talk to Jon at http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Carbshop_kits.htm

 

Cheers, Dave

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Hello Dave,

There is no question of being able to rebuild it, I just don't have the means to refinish it properly or test it after it is done... Since I was having problems with the car, I figure I let the professionals do their job...

Edited by philipj (see edit history)
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  • 4 weeks later...

Some news here regarding the carburetor... Finally found someone locally to properly clean the inside of my replacement AAV-26 carburetor with hand throttle option. The unit is in the car and I can finally say that there is no more roughness or hesitation... My point is that many times we tend to think that a misfire/hesitation in the engine is always electrical, but in my case, I think the main culprit was the carburetor... While running with the 7-57 unit which I rebuilt (I imagine never got it completely clean inside or able to bench test it) I was never able to eliminate these issues... With the new AAV-26 carburetor, these problems are gone. My only regret is not being able to send it to www.carburetordoctor.com for a perfect show vehicle finish... 

 

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On 6/6/2018 at 10:15 AM, ROD W said:

Philip,     New coil showing 17k  on the secondary  and 1.2 ohm on the primary.   Ensure you get a coil that says  with resistor as this gets the primary resistance down to the  1.5 ohms which is suitable for a 6 volt system.   My 1920 Buick would idle nicely, but run very poorly and smoked on higher revs.   Checking the secondary  resistance and  couldn,t even get a reading.  Surprised the car even ran.

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Hi Rod,

so what you are showing here is a 12V coil used with a resistor wire or similar that is suitable for a 6 volt system? 

Is this correct as I thought they would run at about 9V. Interested as 6V coils not easy to sauce! ???

Rodney ?????

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On 6/30/2018 at 8:41 AM, philipj said:

The unit is in the car and I can finally say that there is no more roughness or hesitation...

 

So the driveability issues are gone? Congratulations!. Now you can finally get around to enjoying the car!

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Yes, thank you, they're gone after swapping to the AAV-26 carburetor... Already enjoying smoother driving. The only thing left to do regarding that is to insulate the fuel line against heat since it will take at least 3 cranks to start when the car is hot... I have purchased this insulating sleeve for the line hoping it will help against the heat. This is as modern as I want to go in my engine compartment, minus the heat shink and logo!

 

 

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Edited by philipj (see edit history)
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