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Penberthy (Ball & Ball) carburetor information wanted

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Looking for technical data on Penberthy (Ball & Ball) updraft carburetors. This could be copies of the models and carburetor pages from Master Parts Books, owners manuals, whatever. In 40 years, the only factory technical Penberthy literature I have found is the SV-26. Have found several ads, promotional flyers, repair data; but no parts data.

 

Might be able to offer repair kits for some of these if I can acquire some information.

 

Here is a link to a listing of the vehicles which various sources suggest used Penberthy (Ball & Ball) carburetors.

 

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Penberthy_info_needed.htm

 

Please note that I need information only on the updraft Ball & Ball carbs produced by Penberthy; not the later downdraft units produced beginning about 1933 by Carter. I have all of the downdraft data.

 

Jon.

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Along with the technical data requested above (no answers yet), I would also like to understand some of the history.

 

What I currently know (or think I know?)  ;)

 

(1) Ball and Ball carburetors were produced by the Penberthy Injector Company from 1916~1929 (fact)

(2) Carter began producing Ball and Ball updraft carburetors (the BB series) beginning in fall of 1931 for 1932 model cars (fact)

(3) Carter began producing Ball and Ball downdraft carburetors (the BBR series) beginning in fall of 1932 for the 1933 model cars (fact)

 

From the internet:

 

(4) According to Carl Breer, The Ball and Ball carburetor was owned by the Ball Brothers, and he hooked them up with Carter after Penberthy quit producing the carbs.

(5) According to S.A.E. Journals, Frank Ball began a dissertation on carburetor flow at the April 1916 meeting, and then had his SON (Frederick Ball) finish the dissertation.

(6) Frank Ball was also the developer of the Ball steam engine.

(7) There are several patents assigned to either Frank Ball or Frederick Ball for the Ball and Ball Carburetor Company

(8) There was another "Ball Brothers" company formed by 5 brothers about 1860.

 

Questions:

 

(A) I can find no sibling for Frederick. Was the Ball and Ball Company owned by Ball Brothers, or father and son? If brothers, who was the other one?

(B) Did the Balls actually work for Penberthy and subsequently Carter? Or were the carburetors manufactured by Penberthy and later Carter under license?

 

And I am STILL looking for technical data!

 

Thanks.

 

Jon.

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From The Birth of Chrysler Corporation and Its Engineering Legacy by Carl Breer published by the SAE in 1995: 

 

Regarding your question A, from page 44:

Quote

About this time, in the state of New Jersey, a father and son, Messrs. F. H. Ball and F. A. Ball, who had a successful business manufacturing the famous high speed "Ball Steam Engine," decided that their type of high speed steam engine was on its way out. They became interested in developing unique carburetor devices, and approached the problem on a scientific basis rather than the common hit-and-miss trial method too common in that day.

 

So it was a father and son, not brothers.

 

Regarding your question B, from page 48:

Quote

Our most pleasant and learned association carried on for many years. When F. H. passed away it was continued with F. A. Ball and grandson, Tom. Later when F. A. passed on, and Penberty Injector stopped building carburetors, Chrysler Corporation took over the eight patents and we put Tom Ball in charge of carburetor development and design.

My interpretation of this is that Carter was building B&B designs that were acquired or developed by Chrysler.

Edited by ply33 (see edit history)
  • Thanks 1

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THANK YOU! I do not have that reference book. This suggests that the Balls did not specifically work for either Penberthy or Carter, but Tom Ball may have worked for Chrysler. And probably Chrysler then commissioned Carter to produce the Ball and Ball carbs. So I think I understand what happened, now if I can just acquire bill-of-materials, on the various Ball and Ball (Penberthy versions) carburetors, I would be happy (well, happier ;) )

 

Again, thanks.

 

Jon.

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It looks like there are a couple of pages on B&B carbs in Dyke's. Mine is 1937 18th edition.

 

P. 138 has adjustment of the SV-29 then in p.139 there is a section headed "Ball & Ball duplex carburetor" for 6 cylinder Packards. It then follows into the Fuelizer, which seems to be a Packard device with the carb.

 

The same stuff is in the 1929 edition in five parts, on the same page numbers.

 

Might this be useful?

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

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To a degree, thanks. I have the Dykes information. There is also some general information in the Radco manuals. But what I would really like to find is "factory" information, rather than aftermarket. Really would be nice to find some factory Oldsmobile, Locomobile, Peerless, etc. factory parts books with individual parts listings. I do have some of this for Studebaker.

 

Jon.

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The Ball's were father and son and grandson.  Franklin Harvey Ball was the steam engine guy, his son Frederick Ossian Ball, known as F.O. Ball (not F. A.) helped him.  F.O.'s son, my grandfather was Thomas Mueller Ball, this is the Tom Ball mentioned above.  Thomas Mueller Ball was born in 1898 in Plainfield N.J.  He had a large number of patents with Chrysler Corp.  He died in 1964 from a heart attack while in St. Louis on a visit to Carter.  My dad J. T. ball has the patent for the steering column lock.  The company was winding down by the time my father retired in 1980 and my brothers did not continue in the auto industry.  If you have any questions, my father is still alive and is 93 years old. 
Thomas Mueller Ball patents: https://patents.google.com/?inventor=Thomas+M+Ball


Best,

Shirley Ball

  • Like 1

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Shirley - THANK YOU for posting!

 

I am always interested in the men behind the carburetor history, but my main focus is the original drawings (or copies) of the carburetors and their parts. Pages from illustrated parts books with listings by part numbers are the most prized, but any technical data is helpful.

 

Again, thanks for posting.

 

Jon.

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Hi Ball & Ball carb specialists,

 

I have just found this thread and am also looking for information but specifically on a Ball & Ball type DV9 carburetor, does someone have information of these for me.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Andy

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Don't know if Oldsmobile covered this in their shop manual or parts manual, but I would suggest trying to locate one or both.

 

All of the information presented to me as a result of this thread, is posted in the thread.

 

I will wish you good luck in your search.

 

Jon.

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Posted (edited)

A good read here with plenty of history about Ball & Ball carbs. 

 

Recommend!

 

 

1DEBAAA2-6FB1-452B-B845-0CD032E2CB8C.jpeg

Edited by keithb7 (see edit history)

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