Barry R Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Hi i'm new to this site, but need help. I have a 1923 4 cylinder 45 Tourer. She used to run fine but now won't start. She turns over. I have a good spark and the carb seems fine. I can't test compression as the spark plug hole is two large for any gauge i own. I have even tried pouring a little petrol down spark plug hole. but got nothing. I thought I could try turning her over on a 12v battery, would this help? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylormade Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 How long ago did she run fine? Does the starter seem to spin about as fast as it did back in the day when the car would start? Before I messed with a 12 volt, I'd make sure the battery wires were in good shape, that there is a good ground, that the plugs are clean and in working order, the the motor is properly timed and gas is getting to the carb. Is the coil good? Make sure all the wiring is connected and in good shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 How old is the petrol? Is it still good? Have you got fuel in the carb? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 (edited) Good points , all. However I assume you have primed the cyls with FRESH gasoline. Try a small prime again , quickly followed by WD-40 and a small amount of lubricated starting fluid. Make sure your spark is fully retarded. If you don't get even a cough after a couple of such exercises , you have an ignition problem. That is , if you DO have compression. A quick cheap and dirty compression test on these old low compression engines can be done by sealing the plug holes with your hand. I can do it with my flathead Cadillacs ,. but I don't know if you can contort access into your overhead. Welcome to AACA forums , Barry ! You can be sure the help you need is here. There is quite a lot of fondness for and knowledge of Nickel Era cars here. You should also post below on the Buick Pre-War section. Very active , and the greatest number of participants. Wonderful group , never say die , hardcore , some never stray from Buick forums. We look forward to "riding along" with you when you get going. Where in the vast English speaking world are you , RHD , petrol and all ? Also , thank you for including a picture of your '23 Buick. So often someone dives right in without a proper introduction to their car ! I particularly love looking at your Buick. I have a 1924 Cadillac touring , so the resemblance in interesting. Here is a pic of mine , it is original and unrestored , save for the ancient repaint. Fortunately it was done in original colors. Again , glad you joined us ! Stay with us ! (And do introduce yourself and your car to the friendly Buick people) - Carl Edited March 23, 2018 by C Carl Clarification (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 You can tell if you have some compression by how it turns over. If it spins freely with no resistance part of the time you may have a stuck valve or valves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry R Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 Hi Guys. Thanks for warm welcome. Did you notice she is right hand drive. Don't know of anybody who knows about old Buicks this side of the pond (London) Ok I have a freash full 6v battery. She spins freely like she always did. I have taken the carb off and can feel suction on the intake. I have refitted, put new fuel in the vacum opened the small bottom valve and have fuel in the float chamber. Am I right in saying if I poured a small amount of fuel direct down the plug holes she should fire a bit ? I have a good spark for 6v. at the plugs I am beginning to suspect timing. Am I right in thinking the timing order is 1243 ? 1 being the front of the car ? The valves all seem free and the valve rods that run up outside the engine don't look bent. can the distributer jump? can the valves get out of sink with the pistons? Is there a timing chain/belt ? Thanks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry R Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry R Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 (edited) She is negative earth, Is that correct or have I put the battery back on the wrong way ? Doe's it matter ? Regards Barry Edited March 23, 2018 by Barry R (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 3 hours ago, Barry R said: I thought I could try turning her over on a 12v battery, would this help? That might be a mistake. Could do damage to 6 volt parts. Better to connect another 6 volt battery in parallel the way you would if you were going to jump it off. That way you have more amperage for cranking but still only 6 volts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry R Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 Thanks Ronnie What about being neg earth ? Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, Barry R said: Thanks Ronnie What about being neg earth ? Barry Sorry, I don't know the answer to that. Especially since you have a right hand drive in another country. You should ask about the neg. earth in this forum. They are the experts on old Buicks. Buick - Pre War Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry R Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 I have a right hand drive 1923 Buick tourer. based in london UK. I am having problems starting at the moment. I have just noticed it is negative earth. Have I connected the battery the wrong way round or does it not matter ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian_Heil Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Negative earth or ground as we say here in the Colonies and yes it is very important. What at is it doing or not doing? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Barry R, Welcome to the AACA Discussion Forum. I have moved your post to the Pre-War Buick forum. You are more likely to find an expert on these early Buicks here. To minimize confusion, I have merged your original question with your post from a few minutes ago, so you won't be getting advice in two different discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Shaw Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 46 minutes ago, Barry R said: Am I right in thinking the timing order is 1243 ? 1 being the front of the car No, firing order is 1342 with 1 being in the front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry R Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 Thank you Mathew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry R Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 Thank you Brian I will check Ground is Neg. As a matter of interest what differance can it make ? Thank you Mark , I will check timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry R Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 If you want to test compression with your meter use this adapter: https://parts.modelastore.com/show_Product.asp?ID=12635 I think it was around $6 or something real cheap Your compression should be around 65 pounds at sea level. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry R Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 Just checked I have Neg earth (sorry ground) and checked firing order 1342. Just tried some easy start straight down plug holes. Did'nt even fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian_Heil Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 18 minutes ago, Barry R said: Thank you Brian I will check Ground is Neg. As a matter of interest what differance can it make ? Thank you Mark , I will check timing. To things such as your lamps, nothing. To your starter / generator, coil and ignition, everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 If the car has not been run in awhile, there is likely a glaze on the contact surfaces of the ignition points. Try a shot of NON-FLAMMABLE circuit cleaner or brake cleaner on those surfaces, rotate engine until points are closed (under spring tension, the draw an uncoated business card between them. Have we established whether the car turns over with the starter? If it does, check for voltage with key on at (1) the ignition switch (2) coil (3) points. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian_Heil Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 So you have starting fluid, some level of compression and good spark but no firing First guess would be timing Check wires are to correct cylinders and to firing order note rotation direction of rotor Firing order should be cast into the intake manifold as a reference Is the distributor rotor under #1 when you are at TDC? Confirm you are at TDC and not 360 Degrees past TDC since both are at the same point on the flywheel marking. Both intake and exhaust valves should be closed with intake being the last to close as you come up on the compression stroke to the top and TDC. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROD W Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 Barry, Welcome to the Buick pre-war forum. Being a four cylinder your car would be a Model 23 - 35. This wiring diagram is for 6 cylinder but it would be very similar to the 4, just two less cylinders. If I am wrong here somebody will let us know. The ignition timing is also for a 6, but the procedure would be the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry R Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 Hi all, Ok Buick still wont start. The engine turns over freely on starter. I have new fuel in the vacum cylinder and I have checked its coming though carb. I have a new battery 6V , coil and spark plugs. The timing is fireing just before TDC on number 1 cylinder. I have a good spark and the firing order is 1342. I have tried easy start and also a little petrol straight down the cylinders. I have done a compression test and got 30lbs the same on all for cylinders. I poured a little oil down all four cylinders and got 35lbs best 40 again the same on all four cylinders. Its not even trying to start, just turning over. What am I doing wrong ? Whats the next step , is it head off? Many thanks Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian_Heil Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 I re-read the post. You didn't say if you had spark at the plug and if so, what it looked like. Do you have spark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROD W Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 If your getting a spark at both the points and the plugs. Ensure you have the leads going to the correct plugs. The rotor turns in a clockwise direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry R Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 Hi guys thanks for quick reply's. Yes I have a good spark at the new plugs. yes I have checked leads to correct plugs (1342). The rotor arm is turning in a clockwise direction. I am thinking its time to pull the head off and have a close look. As compression is low. But a bit worried. Is there anything else I should check first. ? Before I pull the head off can I determine if its valves or pistons. ? What gaskets do I need to buy and are they available? (4 cylinder) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryVan Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Barry R said: Hi guys thanks for quick reply's. Yes I have a good spark at the new plugs. yes I have checked leads to correct plugs (1342). The rotor arm is turning in a clockwise direction. I am thinking its time to pull the head off and have a close look. As compression is low. But a bit worried. Is there anything else I should check first. ? Before I pull the head off can I determine if its valves or pistons. ? What gaskets do I need to buy and are they available? (4 cylinder) 1923 Buicks do not have heads. OR, is that just the 6 cylinder ones??? Now I'm confused... Edited April 3, 2018 by JerryVan (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 Jerry, the 4-cylinder engines had removable heads starting in 1917 I believe. The sixes went to removable heads with the 1924 models. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry R Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 Deffinatly got removeable head. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROD W Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 (edited) Barry You did not answer Taylormade question, how long ago was it running fine. If it was running well and then sat for a period of time, and now will not start. I do not feel as though the compression is the problem regarding why it will not start. If you are getting a good spark at the plugs, it should be attempting to fire when fuel is put down the jugs. Double check that number 1 piston is on the firing stroke ( both valves closed ) when the rotor is under the contact to number 1 lead. Did you remove the distributor. Maybe the timing is out. I would look at all electricals before removing the head. Try another coil. Edited April 3, 2018 by ROD W (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry R Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 The last she ran was November. I did notice she lost some power once she had warmed up and had done a mile. We had a really cold spell in January here in London. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry R Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 Before I remove the head. If I turn the engine over and I feel suction or air being forced coming out of the oil filler or dip stick hole its the pistons . is that correct. Where can I buy a 4 cylinder head gasket ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibarlaw Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 Barry : I would do a quick compression check first to confirm. The air escaping the oil filler would indicate bad rings(blow-by). It would really have to be bad with low compression to not at least try to run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 I will be the first to admit that I am not that knowledgeable on the four cylinder models. Did these engines use a fiber camshaft gear? IF this engine has one, could it have broken teeth sufficient enough to throw it way out of time? If an engine has fire, fuel, and compression, there really cannot be any reason it will not run except for the timing. He tells us that there is fire to the plugs, the carburetor is getting fuel, he can feel suction in the intake manifold, distributor wires are going to the correct plugs, no hung up valves and the distributor rotor turns as it is supposed to with the cap off and cranking the engine. If everything I have listed above is correct and the engine will not fire, I think that I would be taking a good look at the timing gears. If there is fire to the plugs, I think a person could rule out the distributor cap as the culprit here. It is simply a process of elimination that will drive a person nuts until the weak link is found. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas A MAN AND HIS OLD BUICK - IT'S A WONDERFUL THING 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry R Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 Thanks Terry, but I have low compression 25lbs or each cylinder. I don't understand why the same reading on all 4 cylinders 25lbs. If I take the Head off why can i by a Head Gasket from ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 I had that probl;em when checking my '38. I was really puzzled - it ran well. I had my suspicions because the compression gage read 60 psi on all cylinders. Tutne out to be a bad compression gage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 Have you tried the wet compression test? Put a teaspoon of oil in each cylinder before you test. If the compression rises, the oil is improving the seal at the rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryVan Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 On 4/8/2018 at 3:33 PM, Barry R said: Thanks Terry, but I have low compression 25lbs or each cylinder. I don't understand why the same reading on all 4 cylinders 25lbs. If I take the Head off why can i by a Head Gasket from ? Barry, Try here for a head gasket: http://www.olsonsgaskets.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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