Mark Shaw

BCA 2018 Denver Meet Prewar Buick Parking

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Thanks for that clarification.  I thought there was one meet that did the Friday judging.  Were there others?  Just asking question, that's all.  I remember reading about the massive water that was on the ground, up there, later.

 

Willis Bell  20811

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8 hours ago, Terry Wiegand said:

This judging business is divisive by its very nature.  Mr. Pittman states that many of the judges are at an advanced age (those are his words).  I think any reasonable thinking person would wonder - where are the younger people in the judging pool?  I also think that any reasonable thinking person would get a pretty clear idea real quick that the younger people don't give a hoot and a holler about picking someone else's car to pieces whether it's restored, original, or just a daily driver.  It is also this persons humble opinion that a lot of people want to come to a national meet and HAVE FUN!!

 

Terry Wiegand

Out Doo Dah Way

 

Posts such as this have chased us all away.  My sons are 27 and 30 respectively.  One is a BCA member, one flatly refuses.  Both enjoy the performance aspect of Buick's but also like to judge and be judged and their level of knowledge will surprise many.  The BCA  WILL die unless the aging membership is replaced and the replacements have almost zero interest in built before their father was born (1958 to answer the question).  Yes, I have judged and yes I have attended a national meet, the last being at South Bend.  I have not been able to attend since do to work and family commitments. Both of my sons have assisted me in judging and enjoy that aspect of a meet.  Read into this what you want.  I will not comment again in this thread.

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I think looking a the issue of when the awards ceremony is becomes putting a bandage on without addressing the root cause. That cause being the time taken judging which can easily be addressed in a couple of ways. The first being more judging participants which will create more judging teams thereby reducing the number of cars a team needs to judge thereby reducing the time taken. The second option is to actually follow the instructions given at the judging school of spending no more than ten minutes at each judged Buick. 

 

As for looking everywhere for a Buick not parked in class, that isn't the responsibility of the individual judging teams. It is the owner's responsibility to park in the correct class. When one isn't in the class, the judging hierarchy is engaged and others look for the vehicle while the judging team goes to work. I'm not suggesting it hasn't happened and I've personally gone out again after we had judged those parked in class to judge a "missing" car. That often comes from new members who don't know all that is going on and perhaps didn't get proper parking direction. 

 

The only time I've gone through the field was judging Archival class in Bellevue in 2007 when the meet was parked by year. I felt it worked incredibly well and it allowed us as judges to actually see more while going through the judging process. The vast majority of 400 point judging classes are year / era based anyway. The Reatta is different but there's only a four year span for them. The Riviera is the big exception that comes to mind.

 

I think parking by year / era makes sense in many ways, not the least of which is for the viewing public and prospective BCA members.

 

Perhaps change is is in order. Just to throw a concept out there, charge more for having a car judged to cover mailing the award, which eliminates the time constraints (but would require someone stepping up to complete the task). 

 

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13 hours ago, JohnD1956 said:

In my opinion, eliminating judging from national meets will further erode the membership base. 

John,

    I agree.  I have never suggested elimination of judging.  I have only requested that members be allowed to park all-together to socialize and compare their cars with others of the same age.  I too like seeing the judged cars, and I appreciate the time and efforts of both the show car owners and judging teams.  I just don't agree with putting the chief judge in charge of parking for the entire meet when judging typically is done only on the last day.

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9 hours ago, Mark Shaw said:

John,

    I agree.  I have never suggested elimination of judging.  I have only requested that members be allowed to park all-together to socialize and compare their cars with others of the same age.  I too like seeing the judged cars, and I appreciate the time and efforts of both the show car owners and judging teams.  I just don't agree with putting the chief judge in charge of parking for the entire meet when judging typically is done only on the last day.

There are a couple of reasons, that the Chief Judge for a BCA National Meet gets stuck with the job of dealing with parking for  the entire meet. One is that most attendees want to park in "their"spot and not have to be moving their car. We do have to move the cars this year at Denver for judging. We are doing this only because we have no alternative .Setting up the showfield on judging day brings a level of stress that no one wants. That is why the cars usually get parked in the same location. There are not a lot of people who want to be responsible for  parking cars, especially redoing it all on judging day. It is a moot point any way , as the parking situation has been resolved, despite some of the rambling that keeps going on here indicating the contrary. So I am not sure what the issue is, and how we can still be talking about parking at this point, but just to clarify, the assistant head judge (almost always a host Chapter member) actually  handles the parking based on the list provided by the registrar of the actual registrations. The Chief judge only approves that this configuration will work and not impede the judging process.

Edited by Jack Welch (see edit history)
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13 hours ago, Jack Welch said:

I am not sure what the issue is,

Jack,

     If you don't know what the issue is by now, you are just not paying attention.

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18 hours ago, Jack Welch said:

So I am not sure what the issue is,

Jack,

    Evidently you had my last post removed, so I will re-post another way.  I find it hard to believe that anybody who has read and posted multiple times (as you have on this thread) could possibly be "unsure of what the issue is" as you stated above.    

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Mark: I have not had any posts removed. I say again. An agreement was mage that all prewar cars would be parked together . so how can this still be an issue? The only exception would be the modified cars. They would be parked in their own Division. Again, I do not see an issue!!!

 

 

 

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Mark it was I and I alone who temporarily hid your short and somewhat terse reply to Jacks post. It was also I who temporarily hid the entire thread so I could put down my fencing tools, come in the house and sort some of this out so it can continue. Believe it or not Moderators do have another life.  I am trying my best to maintain this thread in a friendly and non biased way as I think some good things have been brought out, on both sides.  I have already asked that comments be kept on subject but am seeing it is becoming a back and forth more about judging and bordering on politics rather than what I am sure you intended in your initial post... Pre-War Parking. I have had pm's suggesting I should have closed it long ago but still feel there is value in it. Hence I am reopening it totally intact. However, I don't see much more that can be said about the subject and if it gets off course once more it will be closed.

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Thanks you Lamar for you wise and careful input. I was one of the first that remarked on this thread and I am looking forward to the National and how the parking works out for all. It does seem this thread is going on to long as the desired outcome has been achieved. I say let see how it goes and then report AFTER the nationals what we thought about it. So I for one would like to see this thread die - or die down until after the show.

Steve

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Let me see if I get this long discussion right.

 

If you own a car that was built 1941 and BEFORE you are invited to park your car with the Pre-War Division group who will be parked in chronological order. 

 

Anyone that fits that criteria can park in that area.  

 

Rumor is that there are about 50 spaces available for this group.  

 

If you fit the pre 1942 group you are not required to park anywhere else even if you want your car judged.  This includes modified, driven, HVOP,or any other category. Park with the prewar group if you want to park with the same age car and owners as yours. 

 

This chronological order parking is about getting to know other owners with the same vehicle you have and develop new friendships, contacts, and network to keep our similar age cars on the road being driven.  You might find someone that has had the same issue as you have with your car and they can be a great help.

 

If you park with the pre war group your car can still be judged. 

 

What's the issue??  From my perspective it is very simple.

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On 4/24/2018 at 7:00 PM, Terry Wiegand said:

I also think that any reasonable thinking person would get a pretty clear idea real quick that the younger people don't give a hoot and a holler about picking someone else's car to pieces whether it's restored, original, or just a daily driver.

 

On 4/24/2018 at 8:36 PM, Thriller said:

It may may very well be that younger folks present don't care as much about the judging or perhaps don't understand it well enough to want to get involved. Really, it's about how close the Buick is to how it would have left the factory is what we are supposed to be measuring as judges.

 

Most young folks are in the hobby due to their parents/grandparents/whatever being in the hobby. As an active young person, I can say without a doubt that this hobby is dying because young people of my generation, and more to come, cannot even get into this hobby, especially when rust bucket project cars go for $3000 versus a 1990's hatchback starting at $500. I don't like posting in these threads because I am mostly naive and very inexperienced when it comes to a national car club and its politics, but something about "young people not getting involved" bothers me like it's some giant mystery. We simply cannot get into any form of hobby without outside help, which is rare at best. I mean, I would have never even tried if it wasn't for my grandfather retaining his Buick and giving it to me to start. We all know the price of junkyards, rebuild shops, restoration shops, etc. This hobby simply isn't feasible for the current generation anymore, and most likely won't ever be.

 

Now judging might be a separate animal, but the involvement of young people across the board will yield diminishing returns going forward simply because there is no desire for older automobiles if it's not affordable or attainable for the majority of the population.

 

Sorry, I don't mean to be the target of accusations, but from going to all the car meets I've been to, the demographic isn't young and the classic car meets are much different from car meets put on by my age group. If you want to be apart of a club that has young people interested, then you should be looking at the Nissan/Datsun, Honda, Toyota and Subaru groups.

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In many old car circles I'm still among the younger crowd...and I was born in the sixties. 

 

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11 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

Let me see if I get this long discussion right.

 

If you own a car that was built 1941 and BEFORE you are invited to park your car with the Pre-War Division group who will be parked in chronological order. 

 

Anyone that fits that criteria can park in that area.  

 

Rumor is that there are about 50 spaces available for this group.  

 

If you fit the pre 1942 group you are not required to park anywhere else even if you want your car judged.  This includes modified, driven, HVOP,or any other category. Park with the prewar group if you want to park with the same age car and owners as yours. 

 

This chronological order parking is about getting to know other owners with the same vehicle you have and develop new friendships, contacts, and network to keep our similar age cars on the road being driven.  You might find someone that has had the same issue as you have with your car and they can be a great help.

 

If you park with the pre war group your car can still be judged. 

 

What's the issue??  From my perspective it is very simple.

Larry, you are 99 percent correct here. The only variation from what you have said, is that when the cars get staged for judging, any  modified owner wishing to have his car judged would have it parked in the Modified Class and not in classes ABC, etc. The reason for that is that modified are not judged by year , but by different classifications primarily decided by the degree of modification. In this situation, you can have a 1910 parked next to a Regatta, etc. The modified guys do their own judging and we want to make it is easy as possible for that to be accomplished. , so I agree with you, I don't see an issue. One other quick thing is that no particular number of spaces have been reserved for this . The number of spaces need will; be decided when , registration closes and we know how many cars we have in that era.

 

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3 hours ago, Thriller said:

In many old car circles I'm still among the younger crowd...and I was born in the sixties. 

 

 

 

Oh the comments I could make... but I'll keep my mouth shut and respect my elders...?

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1 hour ago, Jack Welch said:

Larry, you are 99 percent correct here. The only variation from what you have said, is that when the cars get staged for judging, any  modified owner wishing to have his car judged would have it parked in the Modified Class and not in classes ABC, etc. The reason for that is that modified are not judged by year , but by different classifications primarily decided by the degree of modification. In this situation, you can have a 1910 parked next to a Regatta, etc. The modified guys do their own judging and we want to make it is easy as possible for that to be accomplished. , so I agree with you, I don't see an issue. One other quick thing is that no particular number of spaces have been reserved for this . The number of spaces need will; be decided when , registration closes and we know how many cars we have in that era.

 

 

Having judged modified (which is a VERY different animal than 400 pt) and being a devoted pre-war guy I would advise my fellow pre-war brethren to agree that:

 

1. this is agreeable

2. the amount of pre-war modifieds are few in number

3. Fair in that if the owner of a pre-war modified cares that much about judging of their car they can move for a few hours and come back or if they don't care they can simply stay and thus not participate in modified judging ( cause they don't care to)

 

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4 hours ago, 38Buick 80C said:

 

 

Oh the comments I could make... but I'll keep my mouth shut and respect my elders...?

 

Wise for a young whippersnapper. 

 

That said, what proportion do you see in the under-50 crowd?  We aren't anywhere near the majority. 

 

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This is a hobby for old guys.  That's an actuarially endangered demographic, with few replacements on the horizon.  Do your heirs and assigns a favor, and either start thinning the herd or make sure they know exactly what you've got.  Even at that, your pride and joy is likely to become "Dad's old car" to be disposed of for pennies on the dollar because they have no need or want of it.

Edited by MrEarl
Remove race defining term (see edit history)
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Contrary to what KongaMan has said, I find few cars offered for "pennies on n the dollar", I find many are trying to get more than market value for a variety of reasons (rather because granddad fold the what is s worth to him or watching too many TV auctions.  May be just the area where I  reside.  Otherwise, I would have a bunch more cars, I fear.

 

John

 

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