Abua

1956 88 no start

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1 hour ago, Abua said:

I haven’t had the car in my possession. More than a week. I had it delivered here and then in shop over 4 weeks now.

I listened to the engine and didn't hear anything out of the ordinary although it would have helped after you opened the hood if you had rived the engine somewhat. But it sounds OK to me. I would liked to of heard you cranking it to try to start it. Question, this problem is also present when the engine is cold, right?

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That video was shot in Rochester NY 12 degree weather by the seller. I had it shipped down to Florida. When I got it the cranking was slow and pumped the gas twice and it started. I never had it long enough to test out the starting power when it was hot. I started it up in the garage with two pumps of the gas pedal backed it out of garage and then turned the car off never to be started again after I washed it

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I just discussed this with my friend and he said,  pretty much what I was thinking, after reviewing the thread, that the only way the starter would be dragging because of a bearing failure,  would be a catastrophic one in which the oil would have noticeable metal in it from the babbit on the bearings.   Pretty much what I went over already.  He said so far they haven't done squat for diagnosing,  just parts changing in hopes it would fix the problem.  4 weeks in the shop,  is sounding like fill in work or they don't know what they are doing.  Most guys would want it out of their shop asap.   Old cars,  tend to get shoved to the back of regular shops because they prefer the plug and play cars that all you need to do is read the code as to what to replace. 

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I wish you had a video of it cranking.  As mentioned,  My Olds Doesn't zing over like a new Toyota either, but never fails to start.   

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2 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

I wish you had a video of it cranking.  As mentioned,  My Olds Doesn't zing over like a new Toyota either, but never fails to start.   

If the car starts OK cold but drags after it is at normal opp. temp. it's because of a carbon build up behind the rings causing the rings to expand and drag against the cyl. walls. It can be fixed through the use of chemicals. 

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My starter might also need some new bushings as well, that will cause the armature to drag a bit as it racks in the worn bushings.  I have a few others.  I should probably freshen one up and put it in.  As with a lot of these old cars, things wear out of tolerance over the years.  Putting everything back within spec will make them perform like they should and a new car did back in the day.  I never got the time to investigate it too much as it get very little use,  and my more daily drivers get more attention. 

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So the mechanic is down to the ballast resistor not putting out 12v also bypassed it and the starter is not getting 12v either ballast is at 5 v and starter down between 5-9 v. Ordered new mini high torque starter because he thinks it burned out due to multiple cranks. and new ballast also changing the battery cables. Let’s see if this works. Also does anyone know how to tell if you have an R type hydramatic transmission on the 56 olds 88 base model? I need to order a gasket and it looks like there are two kinds

Edited by Abua (see edit history)

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The ballast resistor is NOT SUPPOSED to put out 12V.  The whole point of the ballast resistor is to reduce voltage to the points from 12V to about 9V when the ignition is in the RUN position to prolong the life of the points.  The resistor should NOT be connected to the starter in any case. 

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So we go from 2 bad main bearings to a ballast resistor being the problem,  which as Joe mentioned,  should have nothing to do with the starter.  The starter circuit should have been visually checked at the first shop first thing.    Wow.  Time for a new shop.  If they get it running,  with this fix,  now that you are kind of committed to that,  get it out of there and never take it back.  

When diagnosing always start with the very basic things.  After everything checks out,  go a little deeper,  then a little deeper.   I'm referring to diagnosing by the way,  not your wallet,  which they seem to be excavating pretty hard.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.  

You can probably google about the trannies and get your answer.  My cars is a 3 speed stick,  so I can't help you there.   

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The first mechanic didn’t charge me a dime. The second is much more cautious and a trouble shooter. All he replaced so far was the cap rotor and condenser that the first mechanic didn’t do only points. So mechanic # 2 already did the digging now noticed the ballast only at 5v and starter was only producing 5-9v so I made the call to change them out which was only $200 . The car is not producing enough speed and compression to start the motor so he thinks with a new starter high torque should give it enough speed . Sorry if some things I say don’t make sense I’m not a mechanic and I’m trying to translate the best I can.

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If voltage is low, that will cause the engine to turn over too slowly to start.  Changing the starter will not change the voltage, however.  Proper troubleshooting requires checking voltage at every connection from the battery to the starter to find the excessive resistance that is causing the voltage drop.

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Yes that is why my engine is turning over slowly and won’t start. He checked from battery to starter everything seemed fine till he hit the ballast and voltage was low. Cheap enough to replace. That’s when the starter was checked and the voltage was also low.

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6 minutes ago, Abua said:

Yes that is why my engine is turning over slowly and won’t start. He checked from battery to starter everything seemed fine till he hit the ballast and voltage was low. Cheap enough to replace. That’s when the starter was checked and the voltage was also low.

 

I guess I don't know what you are calling "ballast". There is a resistor that powers the coil. This is unrelated to the starter. If the ballast resistor is wired to the starter, that's your first problem. 

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Yes I know. I was wrong earlier. Ballast is the resistor. It is not wired to the starter. The starter on its own is low on voltage. Also I think we may have cranked it too many time and wore it out. We will change the resistor first and a fresh set of battery cables. Then install fresh starter. Will let you know if it kicks

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He really thinks it the electrical so he’s siding on that first. Really can’t get enough speed and compression. to get it started. But he’s not ruling anything out until he can hear it run

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That was really an irresponsible thing for any mechanic to conclude or say without being able to give any evidence to back it up.   That's like going to the ER and telling the first doctor you see you don't feel quite right.  Then that doctor tells you without any tests that you are going to need a new heart,  then the second doctor sees you listens to your heart does a few tests then says you have heart burn and just need some medicine to help you with heart burn or were just having a panic attack.  Main bearings in a car are about as serious as it gets short of a rod hanging out of the block.  That requires basically a full rebuild.   Thus the reason for me strongly questioning the diagnosis the two mechanics were giving you. 

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12 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

That was really an irresponsible thing for any mechanic to conclude or say without being able to give any evidence to back it up.   That's like going to the ER and telling the first doctor you see you don't feel quite right.  Then that doctor tells you without any tests that you are going to need a new heart,  then the second doctor sees you listens to your heart does a few tests then says you have heart burn and just need some medicine to help you with heart burn or were just having a panic attack.  Main bearings in a car are about as serious as it gets short of a rod hanging out of the block.  That requires basically a full rebuild.   Thus the reason for me strongly questioning the diagnosis the two mechanics were giving you. 

 

I agree but I also can't help but wonder what has been lost in translation from the mechanic to the OP's posts.  I don't get a warm feeling that the OP is accurately conveying the message.

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1956 Olds are 12V. If there's only 5-9V at the starter, something is amiss in starter primary wiring. Get a 1956 Olds factory shop manual and study its wiring diagram  closely, then compare it to what is actually on the car. I think some buggering has been done or you have a bad positive battery cable or connection.

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Yes I have the manual mechanic went through it. Will be changing out ballast resistor and then starter if needed. . The resistor is where he came across the issue  and thinks it will need to be changed out. Cheap replacement will keep you updated

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33 minutes ago, Abua said:

Yes I have the manual mechanic went through it. Will be changing out ballast resistor and then starter if needed. . The resistor is where he came across the issue  and thinks it will need to be changed out. Cheap replacement will keep you updated

 

Either you are once again not correctly conveying the information, or this is faulty logic.  The ballast resistor has NOTHING to do with the starter motor (I think that's the tenth or eleventh time I've said that in this thread).  More to the point, it also has NOTHING to do with voltage to the points when the key is in the START position. If the car cranked, started, then immediately died when the key was turned to RUN, I would agree that the ballast resistor could be the problem. Since you have not described the problem that way, I can only assume that is not the case.  Randomly replacing parts that are not even connected when the problem occurs is a great way to fatten the mechanic's wallet at the expense of your own.

 

I think I've wasted enough time on this thread. Good luck.

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I’ve also mentioned that I had the wrong info from the start. I’m not saying it’s related I’m saying I’m changing out the resistor first to see if it was the problem. I also stated a while back that the issue WAS a no start after it was running. And yes I did describe it that way. I was just relaying what the mechanics thought the issue could be. That’s why I started a thread for HELP because I am not that mechanically inclined. I appreciate your help but if you think you wasted too much of your time on the thread then I appreciate your help and knowledge. I have been communicating everything to my mechanic that everyone has been telling me. And it has been very helpful and he has already tested everything and that is why we are at the resistor. Thanks again

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A test of the resistor or the wiring that feeds it can be done in a few seconds buy jumping from the + side of the battery bypassing the resistor and going to the + side of the coil.Try and start the car. If it doesn't pop or start in a few seconds take the jumper off or the points will burn. but that will tell you if the ballast resistor is defective or if the wiring is jacked up somewhere between the key and the coil..... Tedd

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