Arun Nella Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 (edited) I figured I start a fresh topic to get some help with my 54 Chrysler Windsor. Some intro: This is my first classic. Bought it few weeks ago. Drove it home and while driving around the town car died at a stop light. While troubleshooting I figured out the following so far: Car is originally 6V positive ground But last owner had a 12V battery on it with negative ground setup. but no 12V conversion. Generator is still the original 6v, so are starter and starter solenoid. I bought a compatible 6V battery from autozone and tried with negative ground setup since the car started and ran with 12 volt negative ground for a day. But car didn't crank but i can hear the solenoid clicking. Put my 12v booster on it and starter cranks but no start. Upon further investigation realized that voltage regulator is shorted and so is generator. Bought new positive ground voltage regulator and now i am getting the original generator rebuilt. Also found that car has 6V ignition coil and is wired for negative ground. WTH! So thats probably why when i hooked up battery on positive ground starter cranked but no start. In few days, I will have rebuilt 6V generator, fully charged 6V battery and brand new 6V positive ground voltage regulator. I plan to change the coil wiring so that negative will see 6v negative and positive will see the 6v positive ground. How ever I am a bit confused on the positive side. See the pic attached. The small box is the positive terminal of the coil that's going to a part underneath inside the big red box. What is that? Edited March 15, 2018 by Arun Nella (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Do you mean (the rectangle red box) its going to the distributor? If so, yes that is where it should go. Inside the distributor it should be wired up to the points contact. If the -ve of the coil is coming from the ignition switch then the +ve from the coil should be going to the distributor. This is a positive ground setup. Negative ground would be the other way around. What is inside the distributor, points or electronic ignition module? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 There should be 2 wires to the coil. Hot lead to coil - ground to distributor. This is standard for all cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 On your 54 Chrysler... 6 volt factory positive grounded car... + side of coil connects directly to the distributor - (negative) side of the coil is the 6 volt power supply (hot wire) from the Ignition switch. That's the way all 6 volt Mopar flathead cars are wired up for the coil and distributor. Make sure the points are not burned from the 12 volts. Was the key left on? Warning... Modern new distributor Chinese condensers and points are no good! NAPA parts too. Just check for spark with the coil tower lead pulled out of the dist cap and held 1/4 to 1/2" away from the block while the car is cranked over... should be a audible snapping bright blue spark. If so and the rotor and cap look good the engine should fire. All that as long as the plugs are not soaked in gas and black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arun Nella Posted March 16, 2018 Author Share Posted March 16, 2018 2 hours ago, c49er said: On your 54 Chrysler... 6 volt factory positive grounded car... + side of coil connects directly to the distributor - (negative) side of the coil is the 6 volt power supply (hot wire) from the Ignition switch. That's the way all 6 volt Mopar flathead cars are wired up for the coil and distributor. Make sure the points are not burned from the 12 volts. Was the key left on? Warning... Modern new distributor Chinese condensers and points are no good! NAPA parts too. Just check for spark with the coil tower lead pulled out of the dist cap and held 1/4 to 1/2" away from the block while the car is cranked over... should be a audible snapping bright blue spark. If so and the rotor and cap look good the engine should fire. All that as long as the plugs are not soaked in gas and black. @c49er, Just to clarify the negative side of the coil should see negative from the battery right? regardless of positive or negative ground setup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arun Nella Posted March 16, 2018 Author Share Posted March 16, 2018 Also, What is this device in the picture? Red wire is going to the horn and white wire is going to ignition coil. Is this a relay? I couldn't locate a part number or any sort of writing on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) The coil always grounds thru the points in the distributor. This means if the car is positive ground, + goes to the distributor. If the car is negative ground - goes to the distributor. The other side of the coil is connected to power through the ignition switch. On positive ground cars, the power side is -. On negative ground cars, the power side is +. Hope this is clear. The box is the horn relay. It should have a big wire from the battery, a big wire to the horns, and a small wire to the horn button. The horn button grounds the relay, throwing an internal switch, which makes the horn blow. Edited March 16, 2018 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipeeforward Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 The coil will work either way round but as the link below explains will work better if correctly wired. My 1929 75 was round the wrong way, starting was much better when corrected. http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/ignition/ig104.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arun Nella Posted March 19, 2018 Author Share Posted March 19, 2018 Thanks @Rusty_OToole. It's clear now. Over the weekend I learned that, since the last owner rewired (half ass) for negative ground, if I flip the connections just at the battery to make the car positive ground as it originally was, then my negative terminal at the ignition coil will see positive voltage which is not good. This is because coil's power is daisy chained from horn relay which is coming all the way from ignition switch. So I will have to change the feed power at ignition switch to correct this. What a pain! Or should I just leave things the way he had connected with negative ground setup! I am a bit lost. I was motivated to bring the car to factory style positive ground but seems like last owner or someone rewired it for negative ground. So it may take several changes to make the car positive ground. Now what do I do with my brand new positive ground voltage regulator!!! Any way to use that in a negative ground setup! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 (edited) Get a factory wiring diagram and make everything the way they did it. Same wire sizes, and same color coding if possible. When someone half asses a car especially the wiring you never know where they will stop. So fix what you can find but if something doesn't work be aware the wiring may be messed up especially at the ends. It is possible Mr Half Ass just took the wires off the coil and changed them around. If so you can change them back. Break it down to its simplest form. Take the ignition system first. Trace from key switch to coil to distributor. First be sure the switch is wired correctly. Chrysler did not use a fuse panel, they used the more expensive but superior circuit breakers. There are a couple of circuit breakers in the wiring up behind the dash, they look like little gray boxes. Check wiring to the battery first. Then the charging system. Then the ignition system. Then any other system that seems to be altered. Just put everything back to original. If something doesn't work, fix it right. Don't half ass it. If you have any questions, ask. In the end it is usually easier and cheaper to fix things right than it is to half ass them and chase gremlins forever. Edited March 19, 2018 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 If that's a new 6 volt voltage regulator that was run on 12 volts it's most likely now a No Voltage Regulator. Might need a new good quality one made in the USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arun Nella Posted March 26, 2018 Author Share Posted March 26, 2018 So, got the rebuilt generator back. Installed it. Didn't wire yet, I wanted to measure the voltage first. Hooked up a 6volt battery and started the car and yes it started. Slow crank but def started. Noticed two things: Measured 0 volt across generators ARM and Field. I am measuring continuity between the body of the generator and the ARM/Field pins! Is that normal? The rebuilt shop said they tested generator and it was working fine. I am gonna call them tomorrow. Any tips will be appreciated. So the car now starts on 6 volt battery but this generator deal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 (edited) It won't work until it is hooked to the voltage regulator and it may be necessary to polarize it. Looking at a wiring diagram it does appear the field goes to ground and so will one side of the armature. Do you have a manual? Voltage is controlled by the voltage regulator. You can't tell anything without it. Edited March 26, 2018 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arun Nella Posted March 26, 2018 Author Share Posted March 26, 2018 Thanks. It was polarized by the rebuilding shop. I will hook it up to the regulator and see. With regulator hooked up, I should be able to measure voltage from the BAT terminal right? But, I am surprised to measure zero volt at the generator. Usually voltage is provided/controlled by the source which in this case is the generator, isn't it? I have a manual but it's missing pages from electrical section after batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 (edited) It will make little or nothing until the field is energized. You could stick a hot wire to the field but then it would run wide open possibly making enough voltage to damage something. This is a test you can do to see if a generator or regulator is faulty but only for a few seconds. I don't know why you can't just hook it up right. The generator and regulator work together, neither is going to work without the other. Here is a wiring diagram, if you want to check your regulator wiring. Edited March 26, 2018 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arun Nella Posted March 27, 2018 Author Share Posted March 27, 2018 Wired the generator with regulator and battery and YESSSS battery is charging now. Now all that's left is to mount the power steering pump and locate the title to get the plate. Forgot where i left it between all these. You guys are amazing, especially @Rusty_OToole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arun Nella Posted March 31, 2018 Author Share Posted March 31, 2018 (edited) Drove it for the past 3 days and have these two questions: I am having to try crank the starter, first 3-4 times i only hear click from the relay but then it starts cranking, why. When it cranks it may take 2 or 3 trials before engine starts. Any thoughts? Edited March 31, 2018 by Arun Nella (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 Starter solenoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 Could be the the solenoid copper contact disc to the two studs resistance is too high from high wear. Easy to fix by someone competent with automotive electrical work. The two copper bolt studs and copper disc need to be removed to clean file or rotate to provide a clean flat new electrical connection surface. The pinion gear to solenoid plunger adjustment is critical too. If not right the starter motor will not spin over... just click. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 You need good power to the starter, good battery and good cables and good connections. I believe you already took care of this. Then you need good solenoid as others have said. It may be time to have the starter rebuilt by a good local rebuilder or auto electric shop. Then have no more trouble for 10 years. Hard starting could be a lot of things. Is your compression good? Is the engine in good tune? They require regular attention to clean points, spark plugs, set point gap, timing etc. this needs to be done every 10,000 miles or 20,000 miles. If you have good compression and engine is in good tune check the Sisson choke is working correctly. The wire can get frayed or broken and they can get out of adjustment. If it is very old the bimetallic spring may have lost its tension. New ones come up on Ebay now and again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arun Nella Posted April 30, 2018 Author Share Posted April 30, 2018 I am back with another starting issue. Whenever I drive on the highway for a while (30 mins usually) and stop the engine somewhere, usually at a gas station, the car doesn't wanna start anymore. This happened this morning. Started fine at home, drove for 30 mins, stopped for gas and then it doesn't wanna start anymore. But I hear the click. Battery measured 6.3V which is good for a 6V system. Charging system was working fine before I left home at around 7.3V. This had happened to me once before too but now I am wondering if this is somehow related to driving at highway speed and heating the car up! I then had to put a 12V booster to start the car which I hate to do but what else to do when u are stranded! Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 (edited) If all you get is a click you should be able to troubleshoot with a simple test light. It sounds as if you have a voa meter and that would work as well. You want to be sure to check the ground side of things as well. Edited April 30, 2018 by JACK M (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arun Nella Posted May 4, 2018 Author Share Posted May 4, 2018 Ground was recently cleaned with sand paper. This issue is only after driving for more than 30 mins. Then once i don't use the car for say 6-8 hours, I can start the car again. A wild thought, could the battery be going bad. I ready 6.3V when i see this issue (6V car) but could the cell be going bad inside due to overcharging somehow and isn't giving enough amps to the starter solenoid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 (edited) Take the car to the auto electric shop that rebuilt the starter and have them test everything. Something is wrong, it should start right up red hot or stone cold. But, this is not something that is easy to diagnose from a distance. Edited May 5, 2018 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyler Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 i had the same problem with a Cadillac and it turned out to be a battery cable. it had corrosion that creeped up into the cable. dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1lark Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 1 hour ago, skyler said: i had the same problem with a Cadillac and it turned out to be a battery cable. it had corrosion that creeped up into the cable. dennis I've wondered about that - the insulation jacket may look good on the outside, but what does the cable look like on the inside. Thanks skyler for posting this, it validates another potential hard starting cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 If you suspect a bad cable clip a jumper cable along side it and see if it helps. If it does you know the cable is inadequate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arun Nella Posted May 7, 2018 Author Share Posted May 7, 2018 I took the battery to Autozone and had it checked out good on the load test! So now i am back down to the starter solenoid. I am gonna try to clean the connections at the solenoid and see how that changes anything. Then will try try a better cable and then possibly rebuilding the starter/solenoid combo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arun Nella Posted May 7, 2018 Author Share Posted May 7, 2018 Here are couple of pics from late night rides I do with my wife. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arun Nella Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 Wanted to post an update here. All starting problems were due to bad connection, really old coil wires for starter relay etc. When ever i had issues, I always measured low voltage (less than 5V at the starter solenoid). Cleaned most connections and upgraded some wiring in starting circuit. Problem is almost gone. Still have the wire from ignition to the relay which i need to trace and upgrade. Thanks for everyones help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azimuthsoars Posted November 26, 2022 Share Posted November 26, 2022 I know this is an old topic but I wanted to share my own experience. In 1986 I purchased what I though was a 1954 Chrysler Windsor Deluxe 4 door. When I bought it I noticed it had a 331 V8-HEMI in it. This struck me as odd since 1954 Windsors came with a flat 6 engine. I came to find out through the seller that the car was actually a 1953 Chrysler New Yorker frame and drive train with a 1954 Windsor body sitting on it. The seller had rolled the New Yorker and decided to use the 54 Windsor body. In purchasing the car the seller said he was unable to get the car to start. I towed it home and put a 6 volt battery in it. No at the time I did not know about 6volt positive grounding. I hooked the battery up negative ground. When I cranked it to start, it simply cranked and crank but there was an electrical snapping sound coming from the coil. I notice electric sparking from it. I checked the neg and positive wires to the coil and found the positive one going to the distributor. I thought that was wrong so I switched the two wired on the coil wire nuts and ran negative to the distributor. This time the car fired right up and ran. I had no issues with it charging or lights or any shorting. Only thin I notice was the Generator light would come on faintly and go off once in a while when it idled low. The car was definitely still 6 volts and I hear something about when the battery has been unhooked you must polarize the generator by grounding across its terminals. SO I always did this any time I unhooked the battery. I drove the car like this for years. I always thought the seller could not get it to start because they had the coil wires switched around. I assumed they must have installed the battery with negative ground and thus the reason it would not start for them. So my question is, should I continue running the car as a negative grounded battery or switch it to positive, switch the coil wires back to positive wire from coil to distributor and polarize the generator? I'm afraid I might burn something out. Is it OK to run these cars on negative ground as I have it configured? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted November 26, 2022 Share Posted November 26, 2022 If it were me, I would switch it back to pos ground. Maybe the radio and gauges would like that. And it would be original. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted November 26, 2022 Share Posted November 26, 2022 (edited) Hmm, I thought a bit more about this. I guess it will never be original again. The other thought, Somewhere back in my memory I recall the early NYs to have been 12 volt . I could be wrong about the years on this, but would be worth looking closely at the generator and starter. Maybe this could be found in a moTors manual. Edited November 26, 2022 by JACK M (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 55er Posted November 26, 2022 Share Posted November 26, 2022 Only the 1953-1955 Crown Imperials were 12V positive ground. All the other Mopars of that time (pre-1956) were 6V positive ground. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chry54 Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 this car looks like one i saw on mecum, but was sold before i could buy it. it is a very pretty car and i might have sold my 54 windsor convertible to buy it. alas, you got there first. feel free to email me as i have alot of small parts for these cars. i had my first 54 chrysler in 1966, and bought one as a collector car in 2001. i now own a 54 windsor convertible and sold my 4 door a few years ago. i am one of the few fans of these cars, rarely seen at car shows. my car is also yellow, supposedly the original paint. most of the car is original. i drive it often. i just did the brakes but i am having an issue with a low pedal. it may have a leak or just needs more bleeding? glad you finally got yours sorted. dennis captdennis29@gmail.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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