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Fuel Pump 1938 Century...


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After working on the carburetor and exhaust manifold heat control #$%@! I decided to clean the debris out of the fuel pump bowl.. While running the engine I discovered fuel spraying out of a vent hole in the pump... I imagine that is the warning sign to replace? The housing above the glass bowl is marked 1522109.

Is my best source for a pump Bob's Automobilia? Thank you.

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It is time for a rebuild. Fuel pumps of that age were usually rebuilt locally rather than replaced. Fuel coming out the hole means the diaphragm is leaking. The diaphragm rubber may have cracked, or it could even be an original cloth one. Modern gas seems to wash the sealer off of those.

 

These guys have the internal parts, and maybe also rebuild? I am not sure as I have only bought parts from them. You would have to call and ask. http://www.then-now-auto.com/

 

Bob's probably have something as well: http://bobsautomobilia.com/

 

 

 

 

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Hello Bloo, Would you be against Kanter's rebuilds for about $160.. pricey.  I figured less hassle trying to rebuild one... I just looked at your link, Then and Now offers a rebuilding service for $135... Did you happen to use them, are they the best in your opinion? Wished more people chimed in here. Some of these things can be hit and miss or a headache, even with simple stuff...

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I think the kit is about $80? There is not much work in disassembling, cleaning, fitting the new parts and reassembling. They are very simple. Tom Hannaford (OldPartsTom) at Then and Now is very good - he was very approachable when I spoke to him about my drag link ends.

 

Do not over-tighten the glass bowl stirrup or you will warp the top. The bowl won't seal on it then and it will pull air rather than fuel.

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48 minutes ago, philipj said:

Hello Bloo, Would you be against Kanter's rebuilds for about $160.. pricey.  I figured less hassle trying to rebuild one... I just looked at your link, Then and Now offers a rebuilding service for $135... Did you happen to use them, are they the best in your opinion? Wished more people chimed in here. Some of these things can be hit and miss or a headache, even with simple stuff...

 

I don't know if they are the "best" or not. I bought a 1936 Pontiac kit from them fairly recently. They will want details (specific numbers from specific places) off your old pump to make sure they are sending you the right parts.

 

The instructions they provided were from some very old publication, and covered a bunch of pumps. They were the most complete fuel pump info/insttructions I have ever seen. There was even a small footnote about a running change on the diaphragm shaft seal back when the pumps were new.

 

I did have it apart twice. The kit came with a newer (and much better) type of diaphragm shaft seal. This is a totally non-critical seal. I tried to use the newer style at first, but wound up using the original leather washer stack in the end.

 

Parts provided are ethanol compatible (according to them). I was very happy with what I got, and will definitely use them in the future.

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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I might just send the pump to Then and Now Auto.com, I certainly do not want to do this job twice!.. Pulling the pump was very difficult on account of the incorrect bolts? 1-11/16 long and remote oil filter up front ... The Pump is dated 1948 and marked 1522109 AC 1 680S. Gould. It would be nice to find a newly rebuilt exchange!

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1522109: is that cast into the top? That is the part number of the top, if so.

 

Is there a number stamped on the edge of the mounting flange or a little boss at the top of the mounting flange? That will be the part number of the pump.

 

The original pump for the Century (series 60) was #1521838, series AB - same as '36 & '37. Like this:

image.png.49f3ba33c255d823fcc4c3d3b8fc4a5f.png

This pump is a model #422 and is the same as #1523868, a type #518, used on 1939 Buick 60, 80, 90.

 

The original top number was #1522072, cast into the top. The arm number was 1522071 - this may be stamped on the arm.

 

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)
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It sure came out well. After doing this I got rid of the electric pusher the previous owner installed. The Pontiac hasn't skipped a beat since, even in hot weather!

 

They may need more than just the part number to identify it. They did in my case. There was another code stamped in it somewhere.

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I also found the following number near the mounting flange... What appears to be 6805 or "S" and the word Gould... Unfortunately, I cannot get a close up with the phone. There is also an additional homemade gasket that seems to work well since the pump did not leak oil. Remember this pump is dated 1948.

 

IMG_4034.JPG

IMG_4038.JPG

IMG_4041.JPG

IMG_4042.JPG

Edited by philipj (see edit history)
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Philipj, make sure that you have the correct fuel pump.  I purchased a rebuilt pump for a 1939 320 for my 39 Roadmaster.  It didn't look like the pump that was on the engine and when my mechanic tried to install it he said that the paddle that works on the cam was incorrect.  We ended up obtaining a rebuilt pump like the failing one that was on the engine.  It looks curiously like the pump on my 1949 Super with the 248 engine.  I discovered a few months later that the Roadmaster had a postwar replacement engine.  It made sense, then. Bob

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Hello Bob,

 

I think I have found the same exact pump on eBay, but it would have to be rebuilt, since any older overhaul will not stand up to ethanol... Unless someone had one like this on the shelf ready to go I would not change it, simply because of any potential problems such as the one you encountered... As it is I think I will send this out and get it rebuilt by a professional outfit (since I have no other extra parts other than the minimal stuff from a kit) such as Then-Now Auto.com, unless a miracle happens and someone contacts me between now and tomorrow ..

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20 minutes ago, philipj said:

Hello Bloo, Where did you buy the complete pump for your Pontiac?

 

I didn't. I rebuilt the one that was hanging there with a Then N Now rebuild kit. I believe the pump is the original one to the car.

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I believe you will find that Kanter Auto Products offers a new reproduction fuel pump for  your car. I rebuilt mine with a kit from Bob's Automobila, but the Kanter pump might be what you are looking for. 

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I keep looking at these pumps online and they seem to have a few names for the same model type... Model 422, 518, 422-518, FV18,  and then the GM #'s, some mentioned here: 1522072,1523868, and 1522109 (stamped on mine along with the #48 in a circle). My impression about all of the changes is that these pumps fitted a few model ranges and being in production for so long the model names were slightly changed; but in essence, the pump out in 1938 may be exactly the same as the one out in 1948. Please correct me if I am wrong...

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Upon closer examination of my pump, I just found the number 1522071 on the rocker arm, so Spinneyhill was right on the money hours ago, I'm just half blind!..;(  In the end, we can say that I have a Model 422, Type 518 Series AB double action fuel pump #1522109 (1948) with rocker arm# 1522071 and mounting flange # 6896, equivalent to Kanter's pump #26405B double action (1932-1956) which is a new production pump for $160.63.

Edited by philipj (see edit history)
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slight correction. The type 422 was used in 1938 while the type 518 was used later. The series AB is the model of pump. The pump part number is the 1521838. Later replacement pumps had a different part number (e.g. 1522109). Sometimes the delivery fuel pressure changed on production pumps and the type would then change. I would imagine this would coincide with a change in the carburetor. The pressure change might only be 0.5 psi. Each change in a pump would give rise to a different type number.

 

Later pumps, including replacements, such as yours, had a thicker top flange (where the top mounts) and a thicker mounting flange. The die-cast deforms over time and they were too thin originally.

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Update regarding the pump and more questions here... I just received my rebuilt pump dated 1939 from Kanter's Auto and looks OK, other than a few stripped bolts that have nuts on the opposite end... The casing is marked  1522109 with the rocker arm being 1522071 like mine, BUT It does NOT have the large DOME on the right side... How crucial is it to have that for a Century? Another difference is the suction vacuum port being 180° and the mounting bolts being 5/16" instead of 3/8". I could just drill the casing to accommodate the 3/8" bolts and make a new vacuum line, but I am concerned about the significance of the large missing dome. Also thought about removing it from my old one, but I don't know what else could be different internally for that to work...

 

 

Edited by philipj (see edit history)
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The  "large dome" is perhaps one of the one-way valve housings? Earlier pumps had flat top brass bolt-headed caps in there. I don't know what the benefit was with the domed valve - I haven't inspected one. And where is the "right side"? And how big is "large"? Perhaps a picture would help.

 

Looking at the pictures you posted above, is it the dome over the outlet one way valve? The brass ones like on the inlet of the pump you picture work too - that is what I was referring to.

 

Are you saying the vacuum port is at 180o to where you need it? Just take the part off and put it back on where you need it? i think I might have an exploded diagram....

 

Here is MoToR's Manual blurb about the model AB:

ModelAB_MoToRs.thumb.jpg.d7a842a8e72f4d34b73abb54f1463cd2.jpg

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)
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Can you move the dome from your old pump to the new pump?

 

It does not mean it pumps more fuel but going by memory it helped with drivability. Most pumps went to the dome between 1931 and 1932.

 

Dave

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Don, that makes sense but I did find this in an old AC book. I don't see how that the dome can increase capacity but that is what AC claimed at the time. philipj , some pumps have the dome cast into the housing and some can unscrew. If yours unscrews you could move it from the old pump to the new.

 

Dave

 

 

pump parts breakdown.jpg

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Interesting. I see that. That is a strange claim since the volume of fuel pumped is really determined by the diameter of the diaphragm and length of stroke. Unless the air dome somehow affects the closing of the check valve, but I dont see how it would.

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A 1938 dual action pump for a 320 engine is NOT the same as a later dual action fuel pump for a 320 engine.  The vacuum line fittings are in a different location (actually 1938 320 fuel pumps had 2 different vacuum line locations)

   also the rebuild kits are different and I believe the actuating arm and mounting position of fuel pump to block is slightly different.   Not to mention the glass bowl.   The fuel pump the original poster showed early in the thread IS the correct fuel pump for an original 1938 320 CID engine.

      The "homemade gaset" shown in one picture is to stop oil from leaking from the fuel pump lever pivot holes, a common leak point on the fuel pumps.

 

Bill

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I have learned this much about these when you order a rebuilt from Kanter's... The model series AB, type 422-518-FV18 with rocker arm#1522071 has the vacuum ports next to each other, and the type 518 has the vacuum ports 180° apart... Their type 422 will also have the large dome.

Edited by philipj (see edit history)
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This has been an interesting conversation.  The pump on the postwar 320 in my 39 Roadmaster looks quite different.  It is like the pump in my 49 Super.  As I said before, a replacement pump that is for a 39 engine looked a lot like yours, but wouldn't fit my engine. See photo of the later pump on my engine.

 

IMG_20170914_181224511.jpg

Edited by BuickBob49 (see edit history)
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Hello Buick Bob, Why would the replacement pump (apparently similar to mine) not work on your 39 Roadmaster with a postwar engine?  Vaccum ports? It is Teflon tape and I can remove if it will cause a problem... I thought it would be insurance even though I know these fittings seal when compressed up front.

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Teflon tape shouldn't be used on a car anywhere IMHO, and for sure not on a gas line. Despite popular lore, teflon tape is only a lubricant, and there is teflon paste available if you need a lubricant. The tape has a nasty habit of getting inside the fuel line and causing the carburetor to run over. Cars have burned to the ground over a little strand of tape in the float valve. Pieces of teflon can block oil passages as well (not from a gas line of course), leading to engine failure.

 

As far as I know, 37-38 Buicks use double flare gas lines. The sealing occurs at the flare.

 

Also, sealing the threads of a double flare fitting doesn't do anything.. If the flare leaks, the gas can just run out between the tubing and the threaded nut.

 

 

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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On 1/04/2018 at 3:53 AM, BuickBob49 said:

This has been an interesting conversation.  The pump on the postwar 320 in my 39 Roadmaster looks quite different.  It is like the pump in my 49 Super.  As I said before, a replacement pump that is for a 39 engine looked a lot like yours, but wouldn't fit my engine. See photo of the later pump on my engine.

According to the AC book, 1939 60, 80, 90 used a type 518 pump and '40-51 60, 70?, 90 used a type 530 pump. I don't know the differences, but probably the arm and maybe the orientation of top, middle and bottom and possible the fuel delivery pressure. The '39 pump was a one year only but the '36-38 pump would fit according to The Hollander.

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  • 1 month later...

Hello Buick Bob 49,

 

Where did you purchase the pump for your post-war 320 engine fitted to your 39 Roadmaster? I have removed mine 3 times hoping it would stop leaking oil, but no luck... I need to install something that will sit flat on the block and not deform upwards as you tighten it, letting the oil out...

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image.png.49f3ba33c255d823fcc4c3d3b8fc4a5f.pngThis is the type of pump on a 1938 60....SeriesAJ.jpg.bb5ec2b384bbeceaef4ed9295469d42f.jpgThis is a series AJ as should be on a 1947 engine.

whoops, just looked at your other topic and put in a bit more information about your fuel pump. A 1938-39 pump will not work on a 1947 engine, but any pump from later '40 to 1951 60, 70, 80, 90 will work (pn. 1537338, type 530, series AJ).

 

@BuickBob49 shows the pump that works on your engine and the one that won't work (AB).

 

 

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)
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I purchased a rebuilt AB pump for my 1939 Roadmaster from a local vendor.  My mechanic tried to install it, but said that it wouldn't work because the arm was wrong and, I recall, because fuel lines were in the wrong places.  He obtained a replacement pump just like what was on my car, like the AJ pump.  Later on we found out that I have a postwar replacement engine.  That explains why the AB pump was incorrect for my car's engine.  See my post above with the photo of the replacement AJ pump.

 

I am not sure where my mechanic purchased the replacement rebuilt pump.  Maybe Bob's.  It performs well.  I always run pure fuel in both of my old Buicks.  E0 is expensive, compared with E10.  However, you either pay now or pay later when dealing with the effects of ethanol on your old car's fuel system.

 

Edited by BuickBob49 (see edit history)
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Keep your eye on eBay for a fuel pump. I would bet there is a series AJ on there now.

 

Here is one but it is a bit pricey. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-GM-AC-Fuel-Vacuum-Pump-1537100-1940-50-Buick-GM-Series-60-70-80-90/163067224386?epid=15013658475&hash=item25f7906142:g:mpwAAOSwZoZaaN4H&vxp=mtr

 

Here is another series AJ, by Carter. It would fit if you changed the arm I think.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Vintage-Airtex-Fuel-Pump-Filter-Chevy-Dodge-Ford-Delco-AJ515-AJ523/142812216545?hash=item2140457ce1:g:ouAAAOSwWxNYqfrh&vxp=mtr

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