What came loose?

[Turbinator]

Gents, as I was driving my 1963 Red Riviera on Interstate 695 the crankshaft pulley came off.

i noticed a place for a woodruff key, but no other fastening method I recognized. Could the woodruff key be the only item holding the pulley on the shaft.

i just had a shop put in a new cam, lifters, oil seals, timing chain and sprockets. Maybe the mechanic overlooked tightening a nut or bolt?

Red Riviera Bob

[Schmiddy]

Hi Bob
 

Right, as I know, there is only this woodruff you mentioned who hold the pulley... no nuts or bolts. With a new woodruff, this can be fixed easily.
 

Have fun with your nice red 63!
Regards,

Schmiddy

[1965rivgs]

There is a bolt which secures the balancer to the snout of the crankshaft. The woodruf key just indexes the balancer in the correct position.

  Tom Mooney

[RivNut]

That's the one that needs to be torqued to a minimum of 220 lb. ft. of torque.

[Schmiddy]

Oh, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding! My English is not very good and as I googled the answer of Tom, I find out that a completely other part was meant  - I assumed a window crank... I'd better read 2 or 3x, think and check before I write stupid stuff!  Sorry for the lapse!  

[48Super]

Bob,

The shop that performed the repairs on your car owes you both an apology and free labor on the additional work you now need. Make certain that the end of the crankshaft is not damaged. Did the crank pulley hit anything while it ejected itself from the engine? You will need to find the correct crankshaft bolt and washer in order reinstall the pulley. I'm certain someone on this forum can supply you with the items you'll need. The crankshaft bolt MUST be tightened to at least 220 lb-ft torque. Good luck with the repairs.

[Turbinator]

48Super, thank you for confirming everything I told them about torquing to 220. I bought the parts from a gent out West in California who runs a Nailhead shop. I paid a premium, but I wanted to make sure I purchased the correct parts for the job. I hate buying the wrong parts, that doesn’t mean I’m afraid to buy a radiator, ac compressor. I can buy the easy stuff with a large degree of accuracy. The seller, Russ at Centervilleautorepair Grassy Valley CA was most helpful and emphatic of what to watch out for and especially the torque level.

The guys in the shop rolled their eyes, but I told them I’m not a mechanic, but I’m capable of believing a man who does Buick Nailheds for a living.

The shop apologized their head off and it went without saying they were going to fix what needed to be fixed. The nut on the end of the crank shaft was still on, but the pulley popped off. I still suspect the woodruff key worked loose. I’ll be the first to say , “ I don’t know.”

 

My Dad had a 1953 Buick 4 door sedan that I remember well. Three on the tree. Dad would push in the clutch and I got to make the shift. The most quiet automobile I ever heard. The engine was amazing. To this day I do not know if it was V8 or six. Dad bought the Buick used and to straighten the front driver side fender. He used come a longs, bar and hand hammer to get it straight. Dad made a mistake when he bought the aerosol paint and got the wrong shade of green. My brother and I loved the spacious seats and upholstery. I changed the oil and greased the front end when I was about 10. Somethings about cars we never forget.

4 hours ago, Schmiddy said:

Hi Bob
 

Right, as I know, there is only this woodruff you mentioned who hold the pulley... no nuts or bolts. With a new woodruff, this can be fixed easily.
 

Have fun with your nice red 63!
Regards,

Schmiddy

 

3 hours ago, Schmiddy said:

Oh, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding! My English is not very good and as I googled the answer of Tom, I find out that a completely other part was meant  - I assumed a window crank... I'd better read 2 or 3x, think and check before I write stupid stuff!  Sorry for the lapse!  

Schmidt, thank you for your help. Your English is much much better than my Swiss! My wife and I lvisited Basil for a short period 3 years ago or so. We loved the quiet streets and quiet street car system. I enjoyed some of the BEST Der Weinerschnitzel ( beef calf cutlet fried to perfection and two cutlets instead of one.) in the world in Basil. I find some places in Europe so much more civilized than the US. Vienna Austria is a marvelous city. 

No problems with the mix up in the “crank”.

[Turbinator]

3 hours ago, RivNut said:

That's the one that needs to be torqued to a minimum of 220 lb. ft. of torque.

Ed, thank you. I told them that the torque was 220 lbs about a half dozen times.

stay well

Red Riviera Bob

[Turbinator]

4 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

There is a bolt which secures the balancer to the snout of the crankshaft. The woodruf key just indexes the balancer in the correct position.

  Tom Mooney

Tom, thank you. I appreciate your help.

Red Riviera Bob

[Schmiddy]

14 minutes ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

Schmidt, thank you for your help. Your English is much much better than my Swiss! My wife and I lvisited Basil for a short period 3 years ago or so. We loved the quiet streets and quiet street car system. I enjoyed some of the BEST Der Weinerschnitzel ( beef calf cutlet fried to perfection and two cutlets instead of one.) in the world in Basil. I find some places in Europe so much more civilized than the US. Vienna Austria is a marvelous city. 

No problems with the mix up in the “crank”.

 

Thank you for your understanding Bob and many excuses if I confused someone with my "window crank"!

Right, Basel is a very nice City, specially the old town... but you must see Bern (where I live) the next time you come to Switzerland - summer is the best time! This city is at least 10 times more beautiful than Basel! *lol* I'm sure you will like it!  

A bit off topic I know, but well... a little change does not hurt!  
Enjoy!
 

 

 

[KongaMan]

2 hours ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

The nut on the end of the crank shaft was still on, but the pulley popped off.

 

Are you saying your harmonic balancer came loose or that the pulley popped off the balancer?

[telriv]

Harmonic balancer.

[KongaMan]

So the key sheared off and the balancer was spinning freely? Is the pulley still on the car?  The nut is still there, so the balancer must be attached.  The pulley bolts on to the inner part of the balancer (the part that is secured to the crank), no?  So if you lost the pulley and the nut is still on (which should mean the balancer is still on), then the culprit might seem to be the bolts holding the pulley to the balancer.  Maybe they were never tightened and fell out?

 

If it is truly a woodruff key rather than a straight key, it's possible you wouldn't see it without pulling everything apart.  Similarly, it's all but impossible for a colrrectly installed woodruff key to work its way loose.

[petelempert]

I just went through this about two years ago. In my case, I lucked out because the harmonic balancer was working its way loose and I caught it early. I now know that a slight chirp is an early indicator of such a problem and can be heard before you notice any wobble in the pulleys. I kept looking for the source of the chirping noise thinking maybe it was the compressor. Pretty soon I noticed a wobble and the motor ran horribly under a load. The Nailhead Shop in CA is the best source for parts. I suggest getting a new nut and washer spec'd specifically for a Nailhead which they sell. Also, make sure you clean the nose of the crank, inspect for buggered threads and the keyway must be clean and the key cannot be chewed up. If you don't have a torque wrench that will do 220, get one and don't try to use a cheater bar or a pipe to get leverage because that will mess with the actual torque delivered. You'll need a universal crankshaft plate so you can keep the torque (at 220) from actually spinning the motor while you are tightening. The plate basically bolts to the balancer, gets braced against something solid like the frame and allows you to tighten up to 220. I've since heard that bad mechanics don't use one, simply tightening the nut until the motor spins and quit. That's why they come loose. 220 is more than most mechanics know to torque the nut...so they don't. Last, I suggest using (very sparingly) some Loctite. Some say green, some say red...either way you'll probably need heat to get it off again if you ever need to if you use Loctite. PRL

[telriv]

From the pics I've seen the woodrif key is still present & HASN'T fallen out. So the keyway has NOT been elongated. The end of the crank that I can see looks OK. The bolt appears to be bottomed out in the crank, except the large washer is missing along with the oil slinger.

 

 

Tom T.

[KongaMan]

The only picture I've seen is the back of a woman in a two-piece bathing suit.  Not that I'm complaining...

 

But I'm confused.  If the balancer is in place, how can one see the woodruff key?  Unless the timing cover is removed, how can one see the oil slinger?  If the bolt is bottomed out (is it?) and the washer is missing, maybe that's your problem tight there: the balancer is loose on the crank.

[Turbinator]

4 hours ago, KongaMan said:

 

Are you saying your harmonic balancer came loose or that the pulley popped off the balancer?

The pulley and balancer are still together. The balancer is securely bolted to the pulley. I suspect the washer that was suppose to go on was not put on. What I was worried about the crankshaft was ruined.

The woodruff key is still in my place. Please see the pics.

[Turbinator]

9 hours ago, telriv said:

From the pics I've seen the woodrif key is still present & HASN'T fallen out. So the keyway has NOT been elongated. The end of the crank that I can see looks OK. The bolt appears to be bottomed out in the crank, except the large washer is missing along with the oil slinger.

 

 

Tom T.

Tom, thanks again for your valuable time and telephone consult regarding my mess with pulley and balancer.

[Turbinator]

14 hours ago, petelempert said:

I just went through this about two years ago. In my case, I lucked out because the harmonic balancer was working its way loose and I caught it early. I now know that a slight chirp is an early indicator of such a problem and can be heard before you notice any wobble in the pulleys. I kept looking for the source of the chirping noise thinking maybe it was the compressor. Pretty soon I noticed a wobble and the motor ran horribly under a load. The Nailhead Shop in CA is the best source for parts. I suggest getting a new nut and washer spec'd specifically for a Nailhead which they sell. Also, make sure you clean the nose of the crank, inspect for buggered threads and the keyway must be clean and the key cannot be chewed up. If you don't have a torque wrench that will do 220, get one and don't try to use a cheater bar or a pipe to get leverage because that will mess with the actual torque delivered. You'll need a universal crankshaft plate so you can keep the torque (at 220) from actually spinning the motor while you are tightening. The plate basically bolts to the balancer, gets braced against something solid like the frame and allows you to tighten up to 220. I've since heard that bad mechanics don't use one, simply tightening the nut until the motor spins and quit. That's why they come loose. 220 is more than most mechanics know to torque the nut...so they don't. Last, I suggest using (very sparingly) some Loctite. Some say green, some say red...either way you'll probably need heat to get it off again if you ever need to if you use Loctite. PRL

Pete, Thank you so much for your complete explanation of your experience. You said you heard a chirping noise f4om the engine that got your attention. I would describe the sound I heard b3fore my pulley and balancer came off was a sound like the fan tip hitting the shroud. I thought the fan blade was loose or the water pump was deteriorating. Your tips on the inspection of the end of the crankshaft bolt, washer or lack thereof, woodruff key, threads, and most of all the universal crankshaft plate are most valuable. Your solution(s) are right on. 

I bought my initial supply of parts for cam replacement from Russ at CentervilleautoRepair in Grassy Valley Ca. Russ, is an expert and most exacting in his repair/maintenance approach. I purchased my replacement bolt and washer from a dealer in PA. I’m in central Maryland and I need the part yesterday, so I purchased from the guy in PA. I could have the bolt and washer by tomorrow or Monday.

( I lived in the South Bay Area of LA county when I was boy. Loved LA. Loved it so much it almost did me in. I came back to central Maryland:where I wa born to finish growing up in a slower paced environment.)

[telriv]

Bob,

 

  One thing I forgot to mention & would like to see a picture of is the end of the harmonic balancer, especially the groove for the woodruff key, to make sure it's not wolloed out. A direct shot of the end would be good.

 

 

Tom T.

[Seafoam65]

Schmiddy I've watched your videos and Switzerland is awesome.........In my next life I want to be born there....awesome!

As  for Red Riviera Bob's predicament, I can't tell from the photos what happened. Did the harmonic balancer fly apart?  

How can the balancer  come completely off with the big bolt still  tightly installed in the nose of the crank...I am confused.

[telriv]

The BIG WASHER WAS NOT INSTALLED. Just the bolt WON'T hold it on. And, if you look closely the oil slinger is NOT there also. Bob most likely sourced his parts from Gene at ABandG in Pa.

Still need pics of an end shot of the balancer Bob.

 

 

Tom T.

[Zimm63]

18 hours ago, petelempert said:

I just went through this about two years ago. In my case, I lucked out because the harmonic balancer was working its way loose and I caught it early. I now know that a slight chirp is an early indicator of such a problem and can be heard before you notice any wobble in the pulleys. I kept looking for the source of the chirping noise thinking maybe it was the compressor. Pretty soon I noticed a wobble and the motor ran horribly under a load. The Nailhead Shop in CA is the best source for parts. I suggest getting a new nut and washer spec'd specifically for a Nailhead which they sell. Also, make sure you clean the nose of the crank, inspect for buggered threads and the keyway must be clean and the key cannot be chewed up. If you don't have a torque wrench that will do 220, get one and don't try to use a cheater bar or a pipe to get leverage because that will mess with the actual torque delivered. You'll need a universal crankshaft plate so you can keep the torque (at 220) from actually spinning the motor while you are tightening. The plate basically bolts to the balancer, gets braced against something solid like the frame and allows you to tighten up to 220. I've since heard that bad mechanics don't use one, simply tightening the nut until the motor spins and quit. That's why they come loose. 220 is more than most mechanics know to torque the nut...so they don't. Last, I suggest using (very sparingly) some Loctite. Some say green, some say red...either way you'll probably need heat to get it off again if you ever need to if you use Loctite. PRL

 

 

Interested in obtaining a universal crankshaft plate.  Do you know a source, or is it something I would need to make.  Thinking I should check the torque on mine, as I know the PO changed the cam.  It has gone over 5K miles since though.  

[telriv]

If it has gone 5K miles since installation it's probably OK. Again, probably wouldn't hurt to check. Remove, use red Locktite & re-install or just leave as is. If it's not broke DON'T fix it. OR, fix it till it's broke.

 

 

Tom T.

[KongaMan]

1 hour ago, Zimm63 said:

Interested in obtaining a universal crankshaft plate.  Do you know a source, or is it something I would need to make. 

 

Look for a pulley holder, like this one.

[telriv]

Guys,

 

   There are so MANY ways to hold the engine from turning. MANY require two people. Others require ONLY YOU. NO specialty tools required.      Put some thought/imagination  into it or do a google search. MUCH of this stuff on our older cars is NOT rocket science or require a degree in mechanical engineering.

 

 

Tom T.

[KongaMan]

We always used a couple of long bolts where the pulley bolts go, then wedged a piece of pipe between them.  You can hold it by hand, against the frame, or some other solid point (or go underneath and let it push against the ground).

[Turbinator]

11 hours ago, KongaMan said:

We always used a couple of long bolts where the pulley bolts go, then wedged a piece of pipe between them.  You can hold it by hand, against the frame, or some other solid point (or go underneath and let it push against the ground).

Mr.KongaMan, thank you for the suggestion. I’m feeling a bit sick to my stomach not knowing if those folks ruined my crankshaft/engine.

If they did ruin my engine I’ll have to wait a measurable amount of time before I spend any more money. I’ll have to fix the engine myself. I can do the job, because I can follow instructions.

Thank you again.

Red Riviera Bob

[Turbinator]

11 hours ago, telriv said:

Guys,

 

   There are so MANY ways to hold the engine from turning. MANY require two people. Others require ONLY YOU. NO specialty tools required.      Put some thought/imagination  into it or do a google search. MUCH of this stuff on our older cars is NOT rocket science or require a degree in mechanical engineering.

 

 

Tom T.

Tom, if my engine is ruined I’ll have to fix it myself. I’m not working any job these days. I do not have much choice. My investment in the car is way more than I get for the car. I can read and follow instructions, so lll fix it myself.

thanks again for your help

Red Riviera Bob

[RivNut]

Your buddy Russ Martin sells a sleeve repair kit for the crank snout should it be damaged.

[telriv]

NOT for the crank snout Ed, but for the harmonic balancer. I also have ALL those nec.parts.

 

 

Tom T.

[1965rivgs]

Concern here, and I have seen this many times, is the keyway in the balancer. When the balancer runs "loose" for a while the keyway in the balancer will open up wider from the balancer moving back and forth. When this occurs, the balancer cannot be properly indexed and leaves the balancer prone to move and loosen up even after properly installed again.

  Tom

[telriv]

Bob,

 

   Still looking for pics to be able to help.

 

 

Tom T.

[Turbinator]

On 3/16/2018 at 10:10 AM, Seafoam65 said:

Schmiddy I've watched your videos and Switzerland is awesome.........In my next life I want to be born there....awesome!

As  for Red Riviera Bob's predicament, I can't tell from the photos what happened. Did the harmonic balancer fly apart?  

How can the balancer  come completely off with the big bolt still  tightly installed in the nose of the crank...I am confused.

Mr. Seafoam, the heavy thick washer was not installed. I suspect there wasn’t much holding the balancer/pulley on the shaft. The balancer/pulley are still intact, but it nspun off the shaft.

thank you

Red Riviera Bob

[Turbinator]

On 3/15/2018 at 4:44 PM, KongaMan said:

So the key sheared off and the balancer was spinning freely? Is the pulley still on the car?  The nut is still there, so the balancer must be attached.  The pulley bolts on to the inner part of the balancer (the part that is secured to the crank), no?  So if you lost the pulley and the nut is still on (which should mean the balancer is still on), then the culprit might seem to be the bolts holding the pulley to the balancer.  Maybe they were never tightened and fell out?

 

If it is truly a woodruff key rather than a straight key, it's possible you wouldn't see it without pulling everything apart.  Similarly, it's all but impossible for a colrrectly installed woodruff key to work its way loose.

Mr.Konga Man, the key in the shaft was a straight key or an axle key. True, the woodruff key is shaped in a half moon. “Key” in Industrial ceramics describes a ceramic shape, similar to the keystone shape in an arch. Nonetheless, the key in the shaft was a straight key and it stayed in place. The pulley/harmonic balancer stayed together and wobbled off the shaft because a washer was not in place with the bolt. 

‘I’m going to let the shop that did the job put it back together. I’ll then check the torque every 30 miles or so and keep a record of torque results. Of course, I’m at the mercy of the shop. Unfortunately, their services are uneven in their offering. Body and paint I’m most satisfied. The shop’s mechanics on my Buick are sub-par.

Thanks for the help.

Red Riviera Bob

[RivNut]

The bolt may have been torqued correctly to at least 220 lbs. but without that washer, it wouldn't matter if it were torqued to 22 lbs. Or 2,200 lbs, .that balancer would have come off.  I'm interested to know how you're going to check a 220 lb. torque setting.

[Turbinator]

6 hours ago, RivNut said:

The bolt may have been torqued correctly to at least 220 lbs. but without that washer, it wouldn't matter if it were torqued to 22 lbs. Or 2,200 lbs, .that balancer would have come off.  I'm interested to know how you're going to check a 220 lb. torque setting.

Ed, an automobile restoration shop mechanic did the work. My 63 Red Riviera was taken the shop that failed to put the washer on. The shop told me the washer came off with the pulley and balancer. I wanted to respond, “ I don’t think the washer jumper over that bolt that holds the balancer and pulley in place.  I was born at night, but not last night.” 

 

‘The bolt that goes in the shaft is intact. The bolt never came loose. The washer, as we know was not put on. I’m suppose to receive the washer in the mail today, Monday March 19.

ill take the washer to the shop and let them do the work. I’ll get a half inch drive torque wrench drive that goes up to 250 lbs along with a pulley holder to check the torque. I have a lift I can raise the Riviera and access the bolt underneath the car. I’ll probably have to have my neighbor hold the pulley holder while I check the torque. That is how I would check the torque if Do check the torque. The bolt was on tight. Absence of the washer was the problem. ( I have enough nut and bolt experience to unequivocally know a washer must to be placed on with the bolt for this application) I’m disappointed in the shop for making the error of not putting on the washer.

Thanks for the heads up on my problem with a good question.

Red Riviera Bob

PS. Other than this mishap the car is shaping up and coming together in a neat and clean manner. I’m satisfied with the appearance of the vehicle. I’m treating the under carriage with POR 15 in an effort to abate further deterioration. I’ve used rust preventer on my 18 year old Gravely mower deck and the deck is rust free to my eye. I’ll probably put on a new steering box along with new shocks on the Red Riviera. I believe I can handle the replacement of the steering box and the shocks. I’ll have a front end man inspect the tie rods and Ball joints for wear. I’m in hopes to have the car in shape so I can go any place CONUS.

[Turbinator]

On 3/15/2018 at 1:38 PM, KongaMan said:

 

Are you saying your harmonic balancer came loose or that the pulley popped off the balancer?

Mr. Kong’s Man, the bolt in the end of the shaft never came loose. The bolt is still intact in the shaft. The big thick washer was never put on with the bolt. The pulley and harmonic balancer are both intact. The pulley/harmonic balancer came off the shaft together as one unit. Thank you Red Riviera Bob

[Turbinator]

On 3/16/2018 at 3:38 PM, telriv said:

Guys,

 

   There are so MANY ways to hold the engine from turning. MANY require two people. Others require ONLY YOU. NO specialty tools required.      Put some thought/imagination  into it or do a google search. MUCH of this stuff on our older cars is NOT rocket science or require a degree in mechanical engineering.

 

 

Tom T.

Tom, you are right some of us are gifted with God given mechanical inborn ability. Degree or not, some of us have to take mechanical challenges r e a l slow. Other people learn as they go with no problems. I try not to beat anything to death trying to fix it, so I’m working on solving more challenging mechanical problems as I go. Nothing mechanical comes easy for me.?

[telriv]

Oh something like "If it don't fit use a BIGGER HAMMER!!!!"