1952 MG TD

[keiser31]

Ohhhh man. I HATE when that happens!

[Roger Zimmermann]

That's really one step forwards and 5 back. Sorry for you.

[Luv2Wrench]

Engine out and bell housing (gearbox included), clutch/pressure plate and oil pan off.  Engine is back on the stand and I've located the gear.  I've also discovered what happened.  When I put the oil pan on before I forgot that the flywheel has to go on first.  I didn't discover this until I was ready to install the gearbox and thus I had already put the distributor in and static timed it.  To get the oil pan off I rotated the engine upside down and, apparently, the advance weights came loose and managed to lock the distributor.  When I rotated the crank around and around to check clearance between the new oil seal and flywheel the gear turned but the dizzy didn't and sheared off the pin.  It also managed to destroy one of the advance weights.  As such... I have to either buy parts of eBay and rebuild the distributor, buy a new "points style" distributor or buy an electronic distributor.  I'm leaning heavily towards getting an electronic distributor and the CSI model is the one I'm looking at.  I should be able to get this done for around $500 and it would be a fairly significant upgrade to the engine and remove the points maintenance for the next owner.   Of course now I'm back to waiting on parts instead of getting this engine broken in and the car sold.  Rats.

 

I'll add that the good news from the day is I managed to not break anything else getting to this point...

Edited July 16, 2022 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)

[zipdang]

😡😢

[Luv2Wrench]

New distributor came Friday and I was able to get it hooked up and everything ready to break in the camshaft.  That day came today and the engine fired up immediately and I got the break in completed.  The engine ran fantastic and everything was wonderful except that... it still leaked oil.  Now it leaks as it runs as well.  I think the overall amount it leaks might be less but it is much more continuous and actively leaks while running.  The current plan is to pull the engine back out, drain the fluids, remove the oil pan and inspect the oil seal.

 

After taking a week to install this kit I think I know why some people love it and some people hate it.  The seal kit includes a huge lip seal that rides around the crankshaft flange.  It is held in place by a machined aluminum bracket of sorts.  That's all fine.  Mounting said bracket (it is two pieces) to the oil pain and main bearing casting is sketchy at best.  Neither is a machined surface and neither is necessarily perpendicular to the crankshaft.  As such the seal might not be perpendicular to the flange.  I believe this is why some people have great results with the kit and others (like me) find it is worse.

 

When I get it back apart and inspect it I imagine I will find nothing wrong which means the lip seal isn't able to make a good seal on the crankcase flange thus this "better seal" is actually worse.  If that's the case I'll take it off and put the old style seal back on.  There's a chance it is leaking elsewhere around the bracket and if that's the case I'll fix that and give it another try.   Unfortunately taking the engine out and putting it back in isn't as easy as one would hope.  There are several access issues that are a real pain.  

 

 

[Laughing Coyote]

Sorry that you are still having issues with this oil leak.  You will get it sorted out and be finally done with it.  

[Roger Zimmermann]

I understand your pain. From your explanation it seems that the sealing is a complex affair (typical English). I had also bad results with my Cadillac engines but at least the modern replacement was well done and successful.

[DrData]

Sounds like the oil leak has been a blessing in disguise, correcting some other weaknesses.

 

I’ve been thinking about the oil issue and the latest picture of the assembled engine, which is quite beautiful, suggests something out of left field. I noticed that the vent hole on your valve cover, which would normally vent to the standard oil bath filter, is plugged. Unless you have installed a PVC valve somewhere, you may have pressure building which is forcing oil out of the lower end. A lot of folks who swap to a different air filter system put a small filter on the tube, to allow the head to breathe.

 

Just a thought.

[Luv2Wrench]

On 7/26/2022 at 11:42 AM, DrData said:

Sounds like the oil leak has been a blessing in disguise, correcting some other weaknesses.

 

I’ve been thinking about the oil issue and the latest picture of the assembled engine, which is quite beautiful, suggests something out of left field. I noticed that the vent hole on your valve cover, which would normally vent to the standard oil bath filter, is plugged. Unless you have installed a PVC valve somewhere, you may have pressure building which is forcing oil out of the lower end. A lot of folks who swap to a different air filter system put a small filter on the tube, to allow the head to breathe.

 

Just a thought.

 

It is a good thought and I've been down that path looking for similar type issues.  That cap looks to be solid but if you look closely you can see holes in it around the side.  It vents a little too well and some oil does come out there under high rpm.  

The tappet cover below is also vented and has a tube that runs down to the bottom of the car.  When driving the air going over it creates a bit of a vacuum and pulls vapor out.

 

I do agree with your theory of pressure in the lower end as it definitely seems to leak in relation to rpm.

[chistech]

Sometimes I question myself why I do restoration work when things like this happen or when you believe that someone before you did it right and you shouldn’t have to pull that “fully restored “ item down. As we all know, you can do the work 100% correct, with the proper/best components and still have things go sideways. I guess it’s just a way to test our skin in the game. But how many times have you said to yourself, “why does this always happen to me?” And then after reading this, realize it’s happens to everyone with no rhyme or reason why!🤷🏻‍♂️You’ll get it fixed and just realize, we all feel your pain being down that same, crappy dirt road to hell.

Edited July 31, 2022 by chistech (see edit history)

[Luv2Wrench]

7 hours ago, chistech said:

Sometimes I question myself why I do restoration work when things like this happen or when you believe that someone before you did it right and you shouldn’t have to pull that “fully restored “ item down. As we all know, you can do the work 100% correct, with the proper/best components and still have things go sideways. I guess it’s just a way to test our skin in the game. But how many times have you said to yourself, “why does this always happen to me?” And then after reading this, realize it’s happens to everyone with no rhyme or reason why!🤷🏻‍♂️You’ll get it fixed and just realize, we all feel your pain being down that same, crappy dirt road to hell.

Yep, it happens to everyone!  I haven't reassembled the engine yet because I can't find why it was leaking.  I'm an engineer and a software programmer with nearly 40 years experience over which I've learned that unless you really understand the problem you're wasting time trying to fix it.

Eventually I'll have my hand forced and I'll need to put it back together but until then I'm exhausting all possibilities.  I'll fix it though, I always do.

[Luv2Wrench]

Last night I got everything buttoned up and the engine back in the car.  I chose to wait until this morning to start it because I was tired and didn't want to make any mistakes.  This morning I went over my checklist and fired the car up... except it didn't start.  Backfire out carbs.  I double checked timing and spark plug order.  Same thing.  I Googled "carb back fire timing" and as I was reading an article I said to myself "rotate dizzy clockwise" and the article said counter-clockwise and I realized I forgot which order the silly dizzy rotates!!!  Even with the ARROW on the the rotor showing the direction of rotation!!  Swapped the spark plugs wires, she fired up immediately, set her at 2500 rpm and set a timer for 30 minutes.  I had the valve cover off so I could verify all the pushrods (and thus tappets) happily rotating away.  With that verified I put the cover back on and waited and waited trying not to look for the oil leak I knew was going to happen.   It didn't, however, happen.  30 minutes passed and my very dirty shop floor was still dry.  After another 30 minutes of it sitting there cooling down there was still no oil.  I will put the car back together and do a road test which will be the deciding test.  I really couldn't be any happier.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)

[keiser31]

EXCELLENT outcome!

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I have been checking more or less daily with fingers crossed!  Really glad to hear this!!  Just in time for early fall, best top down timd of the year! 👍😊

[JV Puleo]

 A great job Jeff. Were you able to nail down what was causing the leak?

[Luv2Wrench]

34 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

 A great job Jeff. Were you able to nail down what was causing the leak?

Thanks Joe. I was never able to find clear evidence as to what was causing the leak.  I had to approach it from the angle of where could oil come out.  The potential leak sources were... 1) The welsh plug for access to the rear camshaft bearing.  2) Bronze plug screwed into an access hole for the oil rail.  3) Gasket between two halve of crank case notably around the rear main bearing. 4) The "modern" rear main seal kit.  5) The crankshaft flange and oil seal intersection.  6) Crankcase pressure. 7) Lack of drain path for oil back to pan.

 

I approached each of these areas and did everything I could think of to verify they would not leak.

I replaced the camshaft welsh plug including JB Weld on the inside edges and coated outside edges with JB Weld.  

I filled the bronze plug with Loctite "green" (the thread sealer for already assembled applications) and coated outside with JB Weld.  To get that sealer down in the threads I stood the engine up on its "nose" and applied the thread sealer 4 times.  I noted that the first two applications quickly wicked into the plug.  In my mind this implied that it was not sealed.  Could be that someone removed it and didn't put sealant on the threads when they put it back.  

I used gasket sealer on the crankcase gaskets, soaked the cork gasket and assembled in 3 steps letting each step set up.

I set up the "modern" rear main seal kit again and went to ridiculous levels of precision to get it perfect.  I went "machinist" on it.   I'm probably one of few that managed to find the need for a dial indicator while installing a seal.

Even though the crankshaft flange looked good and I had it polished I also installed a SKF speedi-sleeve which was as tedious as it was expensive.  

Verified positive crankcase ventilation. Several sites mentioned the long drain/return tube from the rear main bearing.  The thought is that since it extends into the oil pan (below the oil level) it could impede flow.  That seemed a bit silly but some were quick to

point out that the MGA/MGB has the same tube and it was drastically shorter such that it didn't extend below the oil level.  As such... I shortened the tube. 

I felt like I did everything I could do short of line boring the block, machining the "screw threads" off the crankshaft and installing a true split seal around the crankshaft.  Had it still leaked that is exactly what I would have done.  Others have had success with the rear main seal kit running on the crankshaft flange so I felt like if I addressed all the potential problems it would work fine.  It appears to have done just that. 

In short... I was more careful this time, took extra time to understand how it all fit together and made sure it got done correctly.

 

[DrData]

Sounds like you have the problem solved. Congrats. I hope the initial road tests were successful

[Luv2Wrench]

In keeping with the frustrations for getting the MG 100% dialed in... the choke is not fully releasing.  The SU carbs have a cork seal that can grab the mechanism and keep it from fully releasing.  Of course that means a rebuild to replace the damn seal.  Obviously this time I will not be using the cork.  I also go as far as saying... I'm not as much a fan for "correct" as I used to be.  There are plenty of things that were done a certain way because they just didn't have the technology/materials to do it a different way and that really needs to be taken into consideration during a full restoration.   I'm not going to drop a SBC in the car but on my next restorations I will pay attention to situations where far superior materials/methods can be used that don't draw attention to themselves.

 

On a more fun note... I managed to land multiple new (old) machines tools.  A very generous individual made me a fantastic deal on a Van Norma No 12 Universal Milling Machine, Monarch 10EC turret lathe, Monarch 11 Jr lathe and various other machinist accessories.   Pictured here is the Van Norman mill on the left (motor is on the table) and the Monarch 10EC on the right.  The Monarch will need a rather significant restoration and has a fairly complicated analog control system.  If I can get it running it should be amazing.  When new these lathes held a tolerance of 30 millionths.

 

 

While I was moving the machines in the MG had its day in the sun... just not the way it wanted.    The parts for the rebuild should come in next week so it should be on the road very soon. 

 

 

 

[Laughing Coyote]

Jeff,

you're going to need to add onto your shop if you keep buying machines.  If not, your not going to have any room left to work on cars. 😁

[Luv2Wrench]

8 hours ago, Laughing Coyote said:

Jeff,

you're going to need to add onto your shop if you keep buying machines.  If not, your not going to have any room left to work on cars. 😁

You're 100% correct.  I'm submitting plans for a 20'x8' shop extension this week.  Being in the city I have to get a building permit.  With the extension I should be able to move some things around and that will let me dedicate a 24'x12' area for a machine shop. I'll also be able to have a bigger paint booth.   I had been looking for another place that I could move to and build a huge shop but that's not practical right now.  I think the extension will make it work for a while.

 

[Luv2Wrench]

I got the new seals for the SU carbs and these are much improved (over the cork).  The choke releases correctly though I bought some new springs as well to make sure.  I struggled a bit to get the carbs dialed in and they still need a bit of tweaking but I *finally* got it sorted enough to take a drive.  I put the hood back on and with the Wife driving behind me, we ventured out onto the open roads!  In my area that means you're up to 60 mph immediately or you get run over.   With her behind me fending off traffic I did an easy first mile to see how it felt.  With a bit of confidence from that I got her up to speed and there was no looking back!   When I got back I checked the compression and it was just over 150 for each cylinder so I think the rings have seated. It seems to be happy at 60mph though one does need to understand how "live" the steering is.   I'm thrilled with the performance though I do think there's a bit more work to be done getting the mixture just right.  I didn't want to risk leaning it out so I was on the rich side of where it should be.

 

 

 

[Lahti35]

Congrats on the drive! Well deserved after the work you've put in🙂

Edited October 10, 2022 by Lahti35 (see edit history)

[keiser31]

NIIIIIICE!

[Luv2Wrench]

Here's a walk around video.

 

 

[keiser31]

GORGEOUS!

[Laughing Coyote]

Great job!  Looks amazing, I hope mine comes out half as good when I finally get it done. 

 

[chistech]

I haven’t visited here in a while. Glad you got that damn leak sorted out. I hate when I do something, either know or believe I’ve done it right, but there’s still an issue and I’ve got to go back in to do it again. That just sucks. My brother recently rebuilt a ‘88 Johnson 70hp outboard from head to toe. Added all new electronics, new reed valves,  rebuilt carbs, etc., and he knows what he’s doing. It has a definite skip at 1800rpms that a three cylinder shouldn’t have. It goes away at higher throttle and diminishes at lower. He got so frustrated he took it to a pro who charged him $500 to go all through it and told him one of the brand new coil packs was bad and that he fixed it. When my brother picked it up and took the boat out, yup, you probably guessed it, it still did it. Took it back to the shop and they ran it on the pond the shop is on. The tech says, “ that? That’s not a skip, that’s two stroke flutter. Nothing wrong with it.”  My brother quickly pointed out he has another same year and make 70 hp that doesn’t do it. The tech said we’ll it’s not rebuilt! It’s very frustrating for sure!

 

That car of yours is just beautiful and your attention to details show proudly. Still think it’s in the wrong garage though!😂

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Went in another direction this year but was waiting to see if you were going to sell or not at the end of this journey.  Outstanding TD, I would have done dash exactly as you did, and the attention to detail on this car is what sets it apart.  Good luck with the sale.  Not your average TD!!

[Luv2Wrench]

3 hours ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Went in another direction this year but was waiting to see if you were going to sell or not at the end of this journey.  Outstanding TD, I would have done dash exactly as you did, and the attention to detail on this car is what sets it apart.  Good luck with the sale.  Not your average TD!!

Thanks Steve! I will be listing it here on the forums later today.  I'll be sad to see it go but it needs a home where it will can driven and enjoyed.

[Luv2Wrench]

Definitely some mixed emotions today but she's going to a home where she'll be loved and enjoyed.   Here's a final picture.

Thanks to @Bills Auto Works for wonderful shipping service as usual.

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)

[keiser31]

OUTSTANDING restoration! I wish I could have done that to my 1951 TD.

[stevenwham]

I'm the lucky new owner of Jeff''s Fabulous Fifty Two .. arriving tomorrow early after an 8 hour drive from Jeff's house .. have really enjoyed getting to know Jeff & learning the restoration through this forum & YouTube has been delightful .. highly recommend Bill's Auto Transport .. top notch 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Congrats @Luv2Wrench and @stevenwham!  What a car and epic thread.

 

Coincidently I just thought of this car as we were discussing types of cars people might buy in another thread.  If I wasn't a little light from our most recent purchase I would have been really interested in this car.  Hope a new thread on driving, showing is started.