1952 MG TD

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Safety, true of so many of our cars, gas tank directly behind you in the MG, or, even better, on your lap in a Model A.  I still think it's less of an adreniline junky's hobby than many though!  Of course if you tire of showing it you could vintage race the MG!! 😉👍😁

[Luv2Wrench]

She's out of the shop!!  Still isn't registered but I enjoyed a nice Easter drive in the neighborhood.

 

 

 

I'll be taking pictures of it next Sunday and I'll need to give it a good clean and wax... but she's done!   49 months in total.  I bought it March 18th 2018.  I haven't added all the numbers up but it was about $28K total.  I did everything but the machine work on the engine and the chrome.   It was a ton of fun even if some of it was super frustrating.  I can't wait to start another one!

 

 

[Laughing Coyote]

Looks great.  If you're wanting to start another I have a nice Mercury that needs to be finished up. 

[keiser31]

GORGEOUS! What are you going to look for as your next challenge? Any ideas, yet?

Edited April 18, 2022 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[keiser31]

1 hour ago, Laughing Coyote said:

Looks great.  If you're wanting to start another I have a nice Mercury that needs to be finished up. 

Funny!

[Luv2Wrench]

1 hour ago, keiser31 said:

GORGEOUS! What are you going to look for as your next challenge? Any ideas, yet?

Thanks!

 

I do have a basic plan.  Roughly in order:

 

1) Restore 1915 Cincinnati Tool Cutter Grinder

2) Restore 1900 Hendey Horizontal Mill

3) Restore 1890 Hendey Shaper

4) Restore 1877 Hendey Planer

5) Add 100sqft to shop

6) Rearrange shop to have dedicated machine shop

7) Finish 1913 Metz Model 22 Roadster

 

Based on how long it too me to do the MG, that list is probably 50 years which is problematic considering my age

 

[chistech]

9 hours ago, Luv2Wrench said:

Thanks!

 

I do have a basic plan.  Roughly in order:

 

1) Restore 1915 Cincinnati Tool Cutter Grinder

2) Restore 1900 Hendey Horizontal Mill

3) Restore 1890 Hendey Shaper

4) Restore 1877 Hendey Planer

5) Add 100sqft to shop

6) Rearrange shop to have dedicated machine shop

7) Finish 1913 Metz Model 22 Roadster

 

Based on how long it too me to do the MG, that list is probably 50 years which is problematic considering my age

 

I just recently put up for sale and sold about 30 very rare and nice RC plane balsa kits. As everyone here knows, I have too many hobbies and though I love to build rc aircraft, to the extent I build them with many, many scale features from machining oleo landing gear to all hand painted finishes with cut stencils for lettering, the time each one takes to build runs on the average, 9 months. So basically a year per model, thirty models meant 30 years. I’m 61 this September so it was a no brainer to let them go to someone who would have the time to build them. I still kept some of the rarer, different type airframes so I can still do some building among enjoying the trains, hunting, old car shows, shooting, etc.! 

[hursst]

Congratulations, Jeff.  Absolutely stunning!  Can't wait to see your next restoration.

[Terry Harper]

Fantastic! Well done and a pleasure to follow along and watch the progress! Great example of the strength of pride in workmanship!

 

Wonderful!

 

 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[pmhowe]

Jeff,

 

The MG TDs were handsome cars when they were new. Yours is now probably better than new. On windy, hilly, country roads, they were a thrill to drive. I hope you have those sorts of roads near you, so you can enjoy the car as it should be enjoyed. Thanks especially for all your documentation of your restoration. I have learned a lot, and you have inspired me to begin work on a project of mine that has lagged for several years. Thanks again for this thread.

 

Phil

[chistech]

I still think he has it parked in the wrong garage!😂😂

[Luv2Wrench]

Today was the day!!!  It took awhile to get the car registered but that process is complete and I drove out of the neighborhood onto real roads.   First intersection a vintage Porsche pulled up next to me and the guy said "nice car" and all of those hours of work just melted away.   His car is probably worth 3 times what my little MG is but it sure felt great.  I only went on a 3 mile drive but I felt like that was plenty to see how it handled at speed.   The road in front of my house is 55mph and even at 7am I had to book it to not get run over.  The good news is that it appears to handle 60mph without that much issue.  At that speed it ticks over at 4,000 rpm which is up there but I guess OK for a 4 cylinder??   The brakes are fine and it drives straight.  It is twitchy on the steering compared to my daily driver.   Certainly not an issue but you do need to remember that turning the big old wheel really does something and it does it right there and then!   I'll add some more miles today and tomorrow I'm going to a local British Car show.  It is a fairly large event so it will be fun to see the other cars and have something of mine there.  It is about 12 miles away so I think a good next step.

 

 

[Luv2Wrench]

Ugh... so after returning from a 15 mile drive it is leaking oil from the rear main.  It doesn't appear to leak while running but dumps at least 1/2 a cup when it stops.  This XPGA engine does leak when stopped because it doesn't have a true rear main oil seal but only a few drops.  This is leaking much more than that and it wasn't doing that before so something has changed.  As such I've cancelled my plans of driving to the car show.  The plan was always to gradually drive the car more and only really venture out when I felt comfortable.   Unfortunately that didn't happen as smoothly as hoped.

It appears that I didn't get something correct when assembling the engine so I'll pull it back out and figure out what I either didn't do or did wrong.   All in all I'm pleased and proud of all that I did get correct.  The car drove nicely on its first couple of real drives and looks stunning.  I got lots of compliments at red lights.  I've always heard getting a car properly sorted is the hardest part and I can certainly see that.

 

[Roger Zimmermann]

Bad luck...I hope you will find the reason of that bad leak.

[chistech]

That sucks on the oil leak but not unlike many British things. The spitfire was a big leaker even when it was perfect. 

[JV Puleo]

Having faced this sort of thing many times I know how depressing it can be. BUT... I think you'll find that taking something apart and fixing it when you've recently put it together goes much faster than it did the first time. All the parts are clean, they should come apart easily and you'll remember most, if not all of what you did. And once it's back together you'll soon forget the heartache.

[Luv2Wrench]

I took another two test drives to try and verify what I'm seeing.  I did another drive in the neighborhood in 3rd gear so 3.5K rpm the whole way.  I did about 4 miles of that.  Water temp remained around 85C (which is what the thermostat is).  After this drive only a couple of drops of oil which is consistent with what I've been seeing since I first drove the car.

The second test drive was another 15 miles out on the open roads in traffic with speeds around 50-55 and about 4K rpm.  Multiple times the temp got to 100C and a bit over at stop lights.  It did come down some once moving but never really below 90C.  Of course it is 87F here right now so pretty hot.  When I returned it wasted no time leaking the oil out like it did before.  I'm thinking the issue probably has heat and/or time component and that's why I didn't see it before.  I also noted that oil PSI is a touch over 70psi at the speeds on the open road and just over 60psi when driving in 3rd gear in the neighborhood.  I guess it is possible there is a pressure component to the issue as well.

I also noted that the oil level is right on "full" so I think it is possible that is a contributing factor.  I wouldn't be surprised if it leaks until it is happy with the level.  I don't, however, feel that's a solution... at least not yet.

As for the show tomorrow I think the combination of issues is going to keep me from going.  I'm not happy with the oil leak and/or running hot.  Throw in a 70% chance of thunderstorms and I'm not sure that's a situation I want to press my luck in.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I think it's possible there is, or was, a little too much oil in the engine. I'd wait and give it a few more test drives before pulling it apart.

[Laughing Coyote]

I bet you were all smiles while driving around.  Congrats again on all your hard wok and finally getting to hitting the roads.  Can't wait until mine is done.  I bet I will be smiling too.  

[pmhowe]

Jeff,

 

I think your car has turned out to be truly beautiful. I’m sorry to learn of its oil leaking problems.

 

With respect to the oil problem, I think JV Puleo is on the right track.

 

I recommend you do an experiment before pulling the engine or taking any other drastic measure: Drain your engine sump to where it is at the half full level, then run it for a test drive. I’m not familiar with the XPAG engine in your car, but have had a similar experiences with Morgans with Triumph engines. For example, my current Morgan (a 1966 Plus 4 with a Triumph TR4A engine) leaks shamelessly with the oil level at “Full”. I have learned to keep the sump at the half full level. At “Half Full” there are no leaks at all. This was the case with my earlier ’63 Plus 4 and ’60 Plus 4 as well.

 

Good luck!

 

Phil

[DrData]

Jeff, 

A beautiful build…probably looks better than when it left the line in Oxfordshire.

 

Regarding the oil…when you rebuilt the engine did you use the modern seal kit from a major parts supplier or did you use the original “rope” seals? When the XPAG in my 1950 TD was rebuilt, I stuck with the original type seals. I only see a few drops when the engine stops and the oil drains down the back from the head.

[keiser31]

If it didn't leak water through the top and oil out the bottom, it would not be British!

Edited May 29, 2022 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[hursst]

Jeff,

   You may have the nicest TD in the nation, if not the world.  I can't get over how great your restoration is on this car.  A truly stunning MG, if I've ever seen one.  I hope I can see it in person one day.  You made the folks in Abingdon proud with this one.  Congratulations!

 

   Looking forward to more of the Metz resto work...

 

-Chris

[nickelroadster]

Just remember that oil leaks are just British anti corrosion protection and you might not want things perfect.

[Luv2Wrench]

10 hours ago, DrData said:

Jeff, 

A beautiful build…probably looks better than when it left the line in Oxfordshire.

 

Regarding the oil…when you rebuilt the engine did you use the modern seal kit from a major parts supplier or did you use the original “rope” seals? When the XPAG in my 1950 TD was rebuilt, I stuck with the original type seals. I only see a few drops when the engine stops and the oil drains down the back from the head.

Thanks for the kind words.

 

I used the original style seals.   The leak is rather substantial though seems to only happen if the car is driven at speed for 10 miles or so.  Just a casual drive causes little issue.

I have most of the car torn down and should have the engine out tomorrow.  Once out I'll be able to try and figure out what the issue is.  I've read that it can be difficult to fit the cork gasket and/or sometimes it moves out of place.  I have purchased the conversion kit for a modern seal and once I figure out what the issue is I'll decide if I'll fit it or not. 

If I were keeping the car to drive myself I might be tempted to live with the leak and park it over a drip pan.  Since I plan to sell it soon I think the best course of action is to get this fixed now such that the next owner will not have to deal with it.

 

[Laughing Coyote]

That's a bummer Jeff.  Hate to see you have to yank the engine again and go back through it all.  Is there some kind of breather system to keep down the crankcase pressures?  I know where you're coming from on getting it fixed and fixed for good.  You will get it figured out and corrected, I just hate to see you having to tear back into it after all the hard work you put into it.

[DrData]

Jeff,

 

A real mystery. Why should distance driven make any difference? Once oil pressure is up and stable, you have good distribution of oil through the block and head. A half cup (4 oz) is a lot to lose as the oil drains back into the sump. I probably lose, at best, an ounce or so; and  that could be handled if I decide to mount a drip pan onto the flywheel housing.

Could operating temp be somehow related?

 

Keep us advised and best of luck in getting that beauty back on the road.

[Luv2Wrench]

5 hours ago, DrData said:

Jeff,

 

A real mystery. Why should distance driven make any difference? Once oil pressure is up and stable, you have good distribution of oil through the block and head. A half cup (4 oz) is a lot to lose as the oil drains back into the sump. I probably lose, at best, an ounce or so; and  that could be handled if I decide to mount a drip pan onto the flywheel housing.

Could operating temp be somehow related?

 

Keep us advised and best of luck in getting that beauty back on the road.

It is a mystery for sure.  It does seems to be temp and/or pressure related.  Driving in the neighborhood the temp never got over 85C and oil pressure was a max of about 60.  At speed out on the roads the temp got up to 100C and the oil pressure was 70 or so.   The engine is now out of the car and on an engine stand.  I've started the disassembly but haven't gotten that far.  Everything looks great so far.  I expected the bell housing to have oil in it but it didn't.  The clutch looked fine but it seemed the outside of the pressure plate might have been covered in oil.

[John S.]

Luv2Wrench, the M.G. is stunning! Even with the hiccups along the way, it is a beautiful car. Great work. John

[DrData]

Any progress on the oil mystery?

[Luv2Wrench]

On 6/20/2022 at 11:21 AM, DrData said:

Any progress on the oil mystery?

I took the engine and broke it down to have a look.  I didn't really find a smoking gun.  One thing I did find was the camshaft had at least two lobes that were worn.   I had it inspected and polished when I rebuilt the engine so it is a mystery as to what happened.  I suspected a problem when I was setting the valve lash but since the engine ran great I ignored it.  Once I had to tear it down to investigate the oil leak I decided it would be smart to pull the cam and take a look at it.  I ordered a new cam/tappets/lifters along with the "modern" rear main oil seal kit.  I will start putting the engine back together soon, hopefully this weekend.

 

[Laughing Coyote]

That's not good news.  Did you use a high zinc break in oil when you did the initial runs on the engine? 

[Luv2Wrench]

3 hours ago, Laughing Coyote said:

That's not good news.  Did you use a high zinc break in oil when you did the initial runs on the engine? 

Yes and I used assembly lube and all the fixings.  Going back through some pictures it looks like the lobe was probably already worn and my engine guy didn't catch it.   He should have caught that but it was my responsibility to check it as well and, really, I never even thought to measure the camshaft.  I'll measure the next one.

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Well, a lot of work but could prevent a worse situation down the road.  Glad you have made progress.  It woukd be understandable to need a break and stuff the car in the back corner but you don't seem like the type to take that approach.  Summer is still young, and early fall is the time for roadsters!

[DrData]

Jeff,

 

You may not have found the source of the oil leak but you did find a potentially much more serious problem.  Good to get addressed now.  Careful reassembly may cure the oil loss.  Good luck with the rebuild.

 

Cheers

[Luv2Wrench]

Rebuild has started.  New camshaft in and modern oil seal conversion kit installed.  I replaced the rings and had the cylinders honed as well.  I figured if I was taking it apart I might as well do it all. 

 

 

[Luv2Wrench]

Engine back together and just about ready to go back into car.  I plan to spin it over without tappets until the oil pressure is up. I static set the timing and it should be close enough to run and break in the cam.  The carbs haven't been touched so they should still be set correctly.  I'll verify spark, add the tappets/lifters and set the valve lash a bit conservative.   Hopefully it'll start right up and I'll increase the RPM to about 2500.  I'll need to verify the tappets are spinning and adjust if needed.  30 minutes of that and the cam should be broken in.  Once that is complete I'll put the interior and such back in and go for a drive to seat the rings.  Not really sure when I'll get a chance to do all of this but I at least have it ready to go.

 

 

 

[nickelroadster]

Y0ur safety wire installation looks like you have experience.  Neat job!

[Luv2Wrench]

Engine is back in the car!  I'll hook up the bare minimum to do the cam break-in.  Once that is complete I'll do the rest and drive it to seat the rings.  If things go really smooth I might get that done this weekend.

 

[Luv2Wrench]

So this afternoon was the time!!  I cranked the engine over to get oil pressure before installing the tappets and lifters.  While doing so I noticed the distributor was not spinning.  Not a good sign.  I removed the distributor to find the gear had separated from the shaft and was sitting on top of the camshaft.   Not thinking clearly I tried to grab it with a screwdriver and knocked it down into the oil pan.  I haven't been more mad in several years.  I tried finding it with an endoscopy camera and fishing it out with a flexible magnetic grabber but have not been able to get it. 

I think the gear was broken off the shaft when I was turning the engine over to check for clearance of the flywheel bolts and the new rear oil seal.  I believe something was holding the top of the distributor and when the camshaft turned the gear it sheared the pin holding it in place.  Not a big deal if I hadn't knocked the gear into the oil pan.

Tomorrow I will remove then engine and drain the oil.  I will use the endoscopy camera to look in the pan via the drain plug and see if I can locate the gear. If I get lucky I might be able to fish it out once I understand where it is.  If not... gearbox, bell housing and oil pan all come back off.