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5 hours ago, Mike Macartney said:

Jeff, you seem to be a "glutton for punishment"! I would not know where to start with a machine in that state. Seeing the second photo, do you have to make all new revolving parts or are they salvageable? After having more of a think about it, I suppose it is no more difficult than restoring a very rusty car? I look forward to reading and seeing the restoration of this grinder. Mike

 

I took the spindle apart last night and it is all in very good condition inside... nearly perfect.  The step pulled and the two thrust adjusters are also fine on the inside and I believe I can turn the outside down some to clean them up.   Getting the table, acme screws, knee etc, free with be a real challenge.  Some pieces are a total loss but I should be able to make them.  Like you say, just like an old car.

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I've long been of the opinion that rebuilding antique machine tools is much better practice for working on brass cars than working on modern cars is. They have a great deal in common, not the least of which is that most parts are "machined". Ironically, machine tools are much more demanding than 90 percent of any car where precision is required so if you can get old machines up and running you can probably handle almost all early car work.

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OK, better discipline yesterday and managed to move new toy over to waiting spot with the other toys.  5 gallons of Evaporust showed up today so I'll be soaking some pieces this weekend.  I am going back up to the honey hole Saturday to get a couple of pieces I think belong with the cutter grinder.  Once I got a hold of a manual for it I noticed a few pieces that I thought I saw up there.  It'll take 8 hours to get up there, look around and get back but after that I should have everything and a few more things might follow me home since I'll have an empty van. 

 

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Wow Jeff, You've come a very long way in a very short time from that first lathe.

With a few more bits & pieces you'll be able to repair just about anything.

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9 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Wow Jeff, You've come a very long way in a very short time from that first lathe.

With a few more bits & pieces you'll be able to repair just about anything.

 

I really feel lucky to have these machines show up when they did.  I've looked for a really long time and not found much and then in the last 2 years I've gotten very lucky.

 

After looking through the manual I realized I was missing a pretty critical piece of tooling... the "the work head".  I vaguely saw something that might be it when I was up there so I drove back up to see if I could find it.  Alas the item I thought might be it was just an alternator.  Fortunately though after an hour or so I was able to locate it.  It was stored indoors but in the back of a very damp basement.  As such it is a little rusty but the spindle still turns smoothly.  It has a B&S 12 taper and with adapters can manage any of the tooling I have.  It is missing one of the 90 degree brackets but I found two of those on the first trip so all is well.  All in all I feel very very fortunate as that could have been a 9 hour trip with nothing to show for. 

 

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Shop is now sorted once again and I'm back getting the paint booth ready.  Tomorrow is going to be a nice day and I should be able to get a lot done.  I'm not sure that I can get primer on but I'll get pretty close. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Got the fan restoration finished and added a filter setup.  After testing I believe my filters are a little too good and I'll need to get some cheaper ones that let more air through.

 

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Edited by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

I've made a fair amount of progress on the walls for the booth.  The original plan was to have a 1' tall mini-wall that hung down from the ceiling and then attach 8'x4' sheets of Coroplast (corrugated plastic) to that and duct tape it all together.  I made the 1' panels and installed them in the ceiling and that worked well.  The 8'x4' sheets did work hanging from the mounting panels but it was too flimsy.  The panels I made for the top really turned out great... lightweight, easy to work with.  As such I decided I needed to just build 8'x4' panels for the lower section.  For the upper panels I used 1.5"x1.x5" (2"x2") which was fine but would make the much bigger lower panels a good bit heavier.  In addition it is nearly impossible to find a straight 2x2 at the big box stores and I certainly didn't want to pay for hardwood.  Home Depot had some nice pine 1"x4" (.75"x3.5") boards that were 8' long.  I bought those and ripped them to .75"x1.25" on the table saw.  I used these for the frames.  Glued and nailed in the corners and then attached the Coroplast to the frame with construction adhesive and staples.  It worked really well and I'm very happy with the solution.   I still need to do the back wall and work out how the fan will mount. 

The fan I got and restored runs great but I'm not happy with the amount of air it puts out.  I found a 36" fan with 6 blades and a 1/2" HP motor and bought it.  It needs a good bit more work than the other fan but it really moves some air.  I'm also going to change the filter arrangement to be much bigger and mounted further away from the fan blades.  I think this will work out well and give me good air movement.  

 

Left wall:

 

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Right wall:

 

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Right wall showing rear of one panel.

 

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Edited by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)
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My son and I painted a '67 Volkswagen in a booth similar  to what you have constructed.  We had a large shop area and were able to construct an 18'x18' area with 8' walls, ceiling joists. door, and lighting.  A filter system similar to the one you pictured was on each side.  We used four box fans mounted in the upper corners.  The walls and ceiling were covered with heavy mil plastic and seams sealed with cardboard strips.  It was for a one time use and very temporary as the lease on the shop was about to end.

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2 hours ago, Tom53MGTD said:

My son and I painted a '67 Volkswagen in a booth similar  to what you have constructed.  We had a large shop area and were able to construct an 18'x18' area with 8' walls, ceiling joists. door, and lighting.  A filter system similar to the one you pictured was on each side.  We used four box fans mounted in the upper corners.  The walls and ceiling were covered with heavy mil plastic and seams sealed with cardboard strips.  It was for a one time use and very temporary as the lease on the shop was about to end.

 

That's basically what I'm aiming for.  I'm hoping that by using the Coroplast this is something I can take down, store and put back up when the need comes again.  So far it is proving to work rather well, the panels are easy to remove and install and simple clear packing tape forms a great seal and removes easily.  Granted this is all expensive and time consuming but having a paint booth "appear" in my normal shop space is worth quite a bit.   The whole thing breaks down into the various panels which only take up an 8'x4' space 16" deep.  Wrap that in a blanket and it should be ready in a year or so for the next car. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

All... I've gotten bored with the MG TD and have decided to breathe some new life into the project.  I've found a blown small block 350 that I'll drop into it, along with a nice reproduction fiberglass body that's already painted (complete with flames!!!).   Might be a little different from the typical restoration project but should be a perfect plan for this day, today, the first of April. lead-640x427.jpg.a76c616ccb6835019785f543e671974e.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Hey guys!  Just checking in.  Haven't had enough contiguous time in the shop to get anything done car wise but I have made some small progress getting some of my latest acquisitions restored.   I think I should have some more time this weekend and hope to get the paint booth finished and at least get the primer on. 

 

Here's the vise. 

 

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Edited by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)
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And here's the L-W Chuck Co dividing head.  This was a great find for me because it is driven from the left side and that's where the drive is on my Hendey milling machine.  Most are driven from the right and the left hand drives are fairly rare.  This thing is an absolute beast and requires absolutely all my strength to pick it up.

 

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Jeff, I like the vice, never seen anything like that before. I don't know how you get the ;bright' parts of the rusty dividing head looking so good. Is it just hard work? Excellent work.

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6 hours ago, Mike Macartney said:

Jeff, I like the vice, never seen anything like that before. I don't know how you get the ;bright' parts of the rusty dividing head looking so good. Is it just hard work? Excellent work.

 

Thanks Mike, I'd never seen a vise like that before.  It is called an AMPOGRIP and was made by American Positive Grip Vise Co back in the 50s.  There are 1/16" ball bearings packed in behind the 9 fingers on each side.  As you tighten around an object the fingers will give when they first make contact.  As the ball bearings move around and run out of room, the fingers stop moving.  It works really well and is pretty cool. 

 

Evaporust did all the hard work for me.  The little that it didn't get I removed with a razor blade and phosphoric acid.   Nuts and bolts got a wire wheel finish after that.   Really not that much work.

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5 minutes ago, Luv2Wrench said:

Evaporust did all the hard work for me.  The little that it didn't get I removed with a razor blade and phosphoric acid.   Nuts and bolts got a wire wheel finish after that.   Really not that much work.

 

Thanks for that information Jeff. I am very impressed with the vice and dividing head. I bought a can of Evaporust and was impressed how well it works. I am going to start using the Evaporust more often. You would need a very large plastic bin for putting a bodyshell in! :) 

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Completed the rear wall of the paint booth.  The rear part is the most complicated as the two center panels are open to have a 2x2 grid of filters in each.  That give me an 80"x40" bank of air filters.  The fan will be set back about 24" and have a shroud to expand its 40"40" opening to match the 80"x40" filter bank.  I think this should give me good air flow.  I got a different fan because I felt like the other one wasn't putting out enough air.  I bought a junked 36" diameter fan that was used to ventilate a chicken house.  It has 6 blades and a 3/4 HP motor.  It was beat to heck but I was able to restore it.  I fixed a couple of the blades, replaced the bearings and went through the motor.  This thing was designed to move some serious air.  It weighs a ton and it a real bear to get into place but wow it moves the air.   We have rain and storms predicted tomorrow so I likely will not have a chance to put the panels up and get the primer on but the first of next week looks good.  I'm super happy with how the panels for the temporary paint booth turned out.  They are sturdy but thin and light.  Had I known it was going to be as much trouble as it was I probably would not have done it.  Now that I have it done, however, it far exceeds my expectations and was certainly worth the time and money.  

 

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Forward progress today is now measured by full backward progress on the car... as it is back down to the frame. :)   That's good because now the things that go back on the frame will stay there (more less).  The tub has been completely removed, wood restored, panels patched, blasted and prepped for primer.  I've been saying this for months... but I hope to get primer on these within the week and start getting the tub re-assembled.  Once it is back on the frame and complete... I'll take it back off the frame and mount it to a rolling base.  From there I'll spray a sanding primer and start bodywork.  

 

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Jeff,

   Great work on the booth and the MG.  We''ll both be back on the road before we know it at this point.

 

Chris

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Shot primer on the tub parts yesterday.  Almost got everything done, probably only needed another hour but temp dropped fast and while I can keep my shop at 75 degrees, I can't do that when the fan is running and sucking in cold air.  This is a two-part epoxy primer and it wants a surface temp of no less than 60 degrees.  Since it is the base to the entire finish... I thought it best to just wait until conditions would be better.   Today is doubtful as it is 47 degrees and pouring rain... still a nice toasty 75 in the shop, but that awesome fan would have it down to 47 very quickly.... much faster than my heater can warm it.   Monday afternoon will be great so it'll get done then. 

 

As noted I noted Chris's mga thread, Little British Car company is still open and delivering parts.  I got my t-nuts and floorboards screws Friday which was fantastic as I was able to get the t-nuts in the door frame before I shot the primer.   Since I did get to put a few miles on the car and it has been sitting for a year, I'm getting a great chance to see how various parts of the restoration have held up.  I've noticed that a few nuts/bolts that I thought were fine actually needed to be re-plated.  The core plugs on the engine are still weeping/leaking even though I replaced them before.  I've ordered another set and will try yet another installation technique this time.   The brand new master cylinder I got from Moss is already rusted... so I guess it didn't have any corrosion protection at all.  Maybe that's the way it was supposed to be but if so a big "paint this or it will rust" noticed should have been included. It is a real disappointment as it will be a pain to pull that out, paint it, put it back and bleed the brakes again. 

 

Last item is the clutch noise.  The first few times I drove the car everything was great.  Then I started hearing a screeching/grinding noise when the clutch was depressed.  At first it seemed like maybe when it was all the way in but then later it seemed to happen for the full stroke.  It was occasional as well.  I replaced the entire bell housing, clutch release bearing, throw arm etc, etc and was greatly relieved to be rewarded with slight and smooth operation when I drove it after that.  However... after a few more drive the same noise was back.  Since I was planning on taking everything apart for paint already I decided to wait until now to have another look at the assembly and see what might be causing the problem.  I took a peek through the access panel and didn't see anything out of the ordinary.  I ordered another release bearing (which is really just a block of graphite) and will take everything back apart and, hopefully, will see some witness marks of whatever is causing the noise.  The design of the system is pretty suspect and I've read some interesting threads on various solutions.   To make matters worse it seems the release bearings are now made with much less dense carbon/graphite material and don't hold up.  Unfortunately this seems pretty typical.  I've seen some people use the roller bearing style from the MGB and Triumphs but I've heard from others that you shouldn't do that because the bearing is not concentric to the pressure plate during travel (it moves in an arc not straight in/out).  It seems like the best solution would be a combination and it seems that someone has done that by turning out the housing, pressing in a roller bearing and then pressing a teflon sleeve/cover over the front of the bearing.  It is a whopping $125 plus $20 shipping but if it works it sure is cheaper than pulling the engine out later.  :) First I need to find the "real" problem and then decided if I should also switch to this type roller bearing.  

 

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Or...if you know what how it's done you could make it yourself. You are practically at the point where you could replicate most of the mechanical parts on that car. It's doubtful that whoever makes the modified part is any better equipped than you are.

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1 minute ago, JV Puleo said:

Or...if you know what how it's done you could make it yourself. You are practically at the point where you could replicate most of the mechanical parts on that car. It's doubtful that whoever makes the modified part is any better equipped than you are.

 

Yeah I've got two roller bearings in my "cart" right now. :) Seems a Honda Civic bearing is just right.  I still have some research to do, lots of opinions in this area. 

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Think about how it works and go from there. There isn't any reason why you're take on the problem will be any less viable than someone else. In fact, I think it might be better, if only because you've started attacking these problems from a machinist's perspective rather than an auto mechanic's.

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12 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

Think about how it works and go from there. There isn't any reason why you're take on the problem will be any less viable than someone else. In fact, I think it might be better, if only because you've started attacking these problems from a machinist's perspective rather than an auto mechanic's.

 

It seems that the lack of concentricity is the issue for roller bearings.  The attempts to fix this issue seem to be the use of teflon, delrin and carbon... with the idea being that the smaller amount of friction between the two rotating (but not concentric) surfaces would be eased by these surfaces.  How someone drives their car also plays a big role in this.  If you keep the clutch in when stopped you greatly increase the wear/heat or so they say.  I do wonder, however, what the concentricity looks like at full extension??  I think some measurements and experiments are on order for this rainy day today. :)

 

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Good Job!  it matters not whether you are on the MG, paint booth, machining, wood work or commentary.  Keep up the good work!

Al

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Are they roller bearings or sealed ball bearings? I admit I can't visualize the problem - it's been about 40 years since I had an early MG apart, and that was a TA.

I seem to remember a circular holder with a raised carbon ring... you might look in to some other low friction material to replace the carbon. I don't know how Delrin would wear but it is certainly easy to machine.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JV Puleo said:

Are they roller bearings or sealed ball bearings? I admit I can't visualize the problem - it's been about 40 years since I had an early MG apart, and that was a TA.

I seem to remember a circular holder with a raised carbon ring... you might look in to some other low friction material to replace the carbon. I don't know how Delrin would wear but it is certainly easy to machine.

 

 

It seems, at least to me, the basic issue here is that the original design worked and was fine, but when the quality of replacement parts fell off like most things made today the design then became a problem.  Since the arm that pushes the bearing towards the center of the pressure plate rotates on a point below the path, the bearing itself must move in an arc.  The arm isn't that long thus the radius is short and the curve in the path is significant.  The curve in the path means that there are only two points (on a complete circle) where the bearing would be concentric with the center of the pressure plate.  In between those points you would have friction ranging from little too intense.  To better imagine this you can imagine the extreme case of not being concentric would be to have the center of the bearing to have fallen equal to or below the lower edge of the center of the pressure plate at which point you would have the center of pressure plate traveling in a smile path and the TO bearing traveling in a frown path... making for a lot of friction. The original design had a material that would wear and would do so at a rate slower than the clutch itself... thus when it was time to change the clutch you change the bearing as well.  In fact, back in those days you heated the holder up, what was left of the bearing material fell out and you glued a new ring back in.  No big deal.  As such, as long as your release (throw out) bearing outlived the clutch it was fine.  When the quality of the bearing degraded and possibly when new drivers not familiar with the concept of NOT continuously applying the clutch bought these cars... well you had problems.  Problems that required removing the engine to fix.  As such people looked for a modern fix.

 

Those familiar with the modern equivalent laugh at the idea of a wearable surface pressing against the pressure plate.  A rotating surface against another rotating surface is an obvious solution.   The difference in a modern setup is the TO bearing is applied in a path that is concentric with the center of the pressure plate.  I believe they follow a sleeve and/or are actuated hydraulically inline with the first motion shaft/crankshaft/etc.   

 

So that's the theory behind this and it makes a wonderful argument to passionately defend and matters little which side you take.  The reality is that while the radius is short it isn't *that* short and the path is not *that* curved.  A high quality thrust bearing with a wearable thrust surface is likely to be a near permanent solution and would certainly outlast a poor quality wearable bearing.  Not continuously holding the clutch in is something to remember as well.   One more *very* important note in all of this is that I said above there are two points where they would be concentric (for all practical purposes.. there is one point).  My question is where is that point?  Is this at full travel, part travel, initial engagement??  I would imagine the engineers set this up to be slightly low of center on engagement, dead on at the point where the plate has released the clutch and back slightly low just passed that.  As such a properly adjusted clutch lever, an understanding of how far to press in the clutch, when to shift, etc, would probably result in very little wear.   Stop me if this sounds like drum brakes vs. disc brakes. :)

 

Now.. for my case I'm not convinced yet that the noise I was hearing is the TO bearing failing.  I think it is more involved than that.  However, now that I'm aware of the quality issue I most likely will be looking for a more modern solution.  While I might be able to understand what is required for proper operation I can only imagine the next owner might not.

 

In other news... the weather gave me a break, the rain quit, sun came out and the temp climbed up to 60... just enough to get the last bit of primer shot.  :)

 

Edited by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

All parts for the tub are primed and ready to go back together!  I didn't shoot the outside of the body panels as they will take a little massaging when they are bent/nailed back around the wood frames.  Once together I will prime the outside with epoxy primer, wait 2 days and then spray sanding primer on the whole tub and start sanding.  I like the easy up/down of the paint booth as I can sand away and not worry with getting the "walls" messed up.  I will keep them stored in my garage.  They are light enough to take in two trips but just a bit too bulky so it takes three.

 

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Edited by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)
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Good to see the TD moving forward again.

 

I haven't had any trouble at all with recently manufactured carbon throw-out bearings. If you are putting them in with a new pressure plate, ie. smoothly finished throw-out bearing seat, they should outlast the clutch. I have 12,000 miles on one, and 20,000 on another. There is usually only around 1/4" of linear travel under pressure, so the scrub effect is minimal. That said, I don't sit at traffic lights with my foot on the clutch, either. Hard to say what the squeal could be, as you have recently put it together with new components, from memory. That would rule out jury rigged components. I once found a roller throw-out bearing with a drilled flange, held roughly in place with tie wire, in an ex US MGB that I bought. Now that one could have squealed! Will be interested in what you find. Keep up the good work.

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Sorry to butt in here. I have  a 48 Morris 8 roadster. All of 900 cc and 4 speed with the carbon thrust bearing.  A very powerful and scary thing to drive, but fun!!! At 50 mph you going fast enough.!!  I have had no problems after I replaced the clutch and pressure plate. What I did do was I polished ,on the buff wheel ,the new clutch fingers before I assembled it. I didn’t like the look of the old tips on the end. They were refinished , ground ,but were not smooth.  This maybe the problem. It might fix its self. Fred. 

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Jeff, looking great!  I thought maybe I'd catch up to you during the down time, but now you're pulling ahead.  Can't wait to see this come together in the home stretch.  What will the exterior and interior colors be?  Are you going to take this thing to shows (when they have shows again, someday), or are you just going to drive it...or both?

 

Chris

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2 hours ago, hursst said:

Jeff, looking great!  I thought maybe I'd catch up to you during the down time, but now you're pulling ahead.  Can't wait to see this come together in the home stretch.  What will the exterior and interior colors be?  Are you going to take this thing to shows (when they have shows again, someday), or are you just going to drive it...or both?

 

Chris

 

I wouldn't bet against you at this point!  I plan to paint the car British Racing Green and a dark shade of that.  I bought the Moss biscuit leather interior.   If there is a show close by and close to the time I finish the car I will take it, but the plan has always been to sell the car and start another project.  I could see myself getting another TD in the future and keeping it but right now I enjoy the restoring part. 

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3 hours ago, frededwarrds said:

Sorry to butt in here. I have  a 48 Morris 8 roadster. All of 900 cc and 4 speed with the carbon thrust bearing.  A very powerful and scary thing to drive, but fun!!! At 50 mph you going fast enough.!!  I have had no problems after I replaced the clutch and pressure plate. What I did do was I polished ,on the buff wheel ,the new clutch fingers before I assembled it. I didn’t like the look of the old tips on the end. They were refinished , ground ,but were not smooth.  This maybe the problem. It might fix its self. Fred. 

 

Feel free to jump in any time!   The plate that came with the MG TD has a center ring that then presses on the finger.  I've heard that a roller style (and even the carbon bearing) works better if the ring is removed and the fingers are nice and smooth.  That sounds like the setup you have on the Morris.  Thanks for sharing!

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Your project is looking great. I just had a thought that might help. As far as your noise goes, I would definitely look at the pilot bearing. I had a buddy back many years ago had a similar issue. He changed the TO bearing several times after he changed the clutch. He didn’t change the pilot gearing. He finally called to ask my dad for help. After dad listened to him and the car, dad asked if he had changed the pilot bearing?  The next evening he brought the car over and the three of us changed it. The bearing was shot and had also wore the input shaft. The next weekend dad replaced the shaft and the noise was gone. Mike

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