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4 hours ago, r1lark said:

Good to see you are back on the MG Jeff!. But........more tooling for the shop is a good thing too. :)

 

SPI epoxy primer.........I just ordered some a few weeks back, but have not had a chance to spray anything yet. Any tips or tricks that you have learned?

 

I highly recommend using their water based wax and grease remover and *nothing* else.  Barry (owner of SPI) can't be anymore clear on that.  I make sure that any rust treatment, glide coat, etc, etc is throughly removed before I apply the WaG.   So...

 

1) 80 grits scratches with a DA

2) Mix epoxy primer

3) WaG.  Apply and wipe off in one direction.  The WaG is "floating" contaminates off so no rubbing "around". 

4) Wait 30 minutes for both epoxy primer to activate and the WaG be gone.

5) Shoot 2 coats.  I actually shoot a quick tack coat and immediately follow the with a wet coat.  I wait 20 minutes and do another wet coat.

6) Beer (ok, ok, yeah, that was step 1 as well).

 

I use a 1.3 tip but I think you can use a 1.5 as well.  On the last coat you can reduce it 15% and get a flatter sheen.  It has UV protection so it can be the first and last step for chassis and such. 

You can call SPI just about any time and get tech support.  Barry's cell phone is available after hours and on the weekend.  Crazy. 

 

 

 

 

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On 10/15/2019 at 6:49 PM, r1lark said:

Thanks for the info Jeff. I did get the water based wax and grease remover. I've got to get a new primer gun anyway, so will look for a 1.3 tip.

I looked at the tech sheet again and they recommend 1.5 but say you can use 1.3.  As such, you might want to get 1.5 for the primer gun.   If you use their 2K primer they recommend a 1.8 tip for it.

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Small update... I've been practicing welding again.  It has been quite some time since I last did any and I thought I'd get some practice in.  Got off to a rough start as both regulators wouldn't hold pressure so I had to drive across a few towns (3 hours round trip) to get them rebuilt.  There is a fantastic company, Regulator and Torch Exchange, that will rebuild your regulators while you wait.  Really great guys.  I went ahead and changed hoses, got new goggles, etc, etc.  I'm more comfortable with the setup now and the practice has gone well.  The owner suggested changing the spring in the oxygen regulator to allow finer control over lower pressures and I think that's helped a lot.  I need to get some thinner (1/16") rod in as well as I'm struggling to keep the filler rod molten with the lower heat level needed to keep from blowing a hole in the sheet metal (20ga).  Looks like it will be mid next week before that comes in so I'll have to find other things to do. 

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6 hours ago, Roger Zimmermann said:

If I'm understanding well, you are still welding with oxygen/acetylene? I learned the process more than 50 years ag; I'm not sure if I still could!

 

Yes, I've been told to start with oxy-acetylene and then get a high quality TIG system.  Since I still haven't mastered oxy-acetylene and I can't afford a high quality TIG system... I'm staying with the gas.  I really think it will serve my purposes well.  I think it is just a matter of practice and experimenting with pressures, flow rates, tip sizes and filler rod sizes.  Granted that's a lot of variables but I've got time. :)
 

Edited by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)
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I must admit that I always thought that gas welding was like riding a bike! Once mastered you could go back to it easily. During the 60's and early 70's I did a lot of gas welding, then went onto MIG welding, in the mid to late 70's. About a year ago I had something that I wanted to weld with gas and was very disappointed with the aesthetics of my end result. I would have thought I could have done a lot better. Next time I need to gas weld something I had better have a have a good practise first!

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Buy a AHP tig welder from amazon for $720 or you can buy direct from the import company direct. No need to buy an expensive one. Read the reviews and I bought one. Incredible to use and the best value I’ve found. Yes, it’s made in China but many things from China are no longer junk. My cousin is a professional welder and was amazed at how well it performed. It is the welder I used to do all the welding on my Olds running boards and fuel tank apron. You no longer have to spend a ton of money on a very good tig welder. I purchased the warranty too simply because it also covers shipping costs in the case it needed warranty repair which would be more than the warranty cost alone. Also, using tig is easy and the arc is controlled by the foot pedal. You would learn very quickly. I think you’re wasting your time with gas welding if your intentions are to progress to the tig. Of course, learning any type of welding is a benefit but I’d start tig welding now.

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5 hours ago, chistech said:

Buy a AHP tig welder from amazon for $720 or you can buy direct from the import company direct. No need to buy an expensive one. Read the reviews and I bought one. Incredible to use and the best value I’ve found. Yes, it’s made in China but many things from China are no longer junk. My cousin is a professional welder and was amazed at how well it performed. It is the welder I used to do all the welding on my Olds running boards and fuel tank apron. You no longer have to spend a ton of money on a very good tig welder. I purchased the warranty too simply because it also covers shipping costs in the case it needed warranty repair which would be more than the warranty cost alone. Also, using tig is easy and the arc is controlled by the foot pedal. You would learn very quickly. I think you’re wasting your time with gas welding if your intentions are to progress to the tig. Of course, learning any type of welding is a benefit but I’d start tig welding now.

 

I think you logic is very good.  I don't have much welding to do on the MG so my needs are not pressing right now.  Time is still my friend.  Once the MG is done and, hopefully, I have a little money in my pocket, then a TIG is probably first on the list.  I think the longer I wait the better a unit I'll be able to get, and, of course, the better my puddle skills will be. :)

 

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Got the 1/16" RG45 welding rod in today and it makes a big difference.  Now, of course, I need a different tip size.  For some reason I have a 000 and 0 but no 00 size.  Figures.  I think I'm very close now.

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I'm still struggling a bit with each end of a butt joint.  I'm now starting with some tack from the middle out and then trying to flow out to the edges.  That seems to be showing some promise.   Here's a couple of my test pieces, they look a little better in real life but they've still got a ways to go.  I'm going to take one of these and "finish" it out the primer, glazing putty and paint.  I'm curious to see how close to flat it will get.   I'm also going to try cutting a square out of a sheet and then welding it back.  After I've done a couple of those I'm going to practice a couple of actual patches on some old fenders.   I'm getting much more comfortable holding the torch and maintaining the correct angles.  Maybe another couple of weeks and I'll have it.

 

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Edited by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)
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When TIG welding a butt joint I put a tack at the stopping end. When you start welding, the metal gets hotter towards the end and the pieces will move if not tacked.  you would also have to reduce the heat to prevent burn threw. Can you tack the end with a MIG welder then try welding with the gas torch?  Just a thought.  I'm sure you will get it all figured out and be on your way.

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1 hour ago, Laughing Coyote said:

When TIG welding a butt joint I put a tack at the stopping end. When you start welding, the metal gets hotter towards the end and the pieces will move if not tacked.  you would also have to reduce the heat to prevent burn threw. Can you tack the end with a MIG welder then try welding with the gas torch?  Just a thought.  I'm sure you will get it all figured out and be on your way.

 

Yes, this is what I'm trying to do. The problem I'm running into is that each end of the butt joint is, in effect, a corner.  When I get the torch on those two corners they almost immediately melt and blow out.   I've been able to put a tack about 2" in from each each and then run the puddle from there out and pull the torch up as I get to the end.   The promising part is that the middle is starting to get pretty nice.  The last two I did would need very little clean up.   I'm in no hurry so I'll just keep working at it.

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You did nice welds. On the pictures, the heat generated is clearly visible; that's the problem with the torch. Doing that welding on a fender or other sheet metal part, you may have a severe distorsion. With a TIG welding, there is also some heat and distortion, but much less than with a torch.

During welding, you may put some wet rag near to the welding to limit the transferred heat.

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6 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

I was taught to put a tack every couple of inches and work between them so the whole thing doesn't get too hot. Weld a length here, move along a couple of tacks and weld another length, and so on.

 

Yes, I'm doing about 3" or 4" between though I am making one pass from the middle out and reflowing the tacks.  I can try switching between the tacks.

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I would think distortion from greatest to least would be stick, gas or MiG, then Tig. I’ve found if my butt joint is tight, the metal very clean, and the tungsten very sharp, I can weld it with Zero distortion as long as I only weld short runs. I also used very little filler rod opting for just welding the two panels together. The problem is we all get impatient with welding and just want to be done with it. I’m sure there’s a bunch of us out there that start with runs of 3/8-1/2” and see no distortion so we say, I’ll just do 3/4” from now on, and then bingo, warps appear. We all have tried at one time or another to rush it. Well, at least I’m willing to admit it anyway!😃

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Been watching but not saying.  The MG TD is a beautiful design to me!  I have an unpredicted like for some aspects of design that is very "British".  My brother has a yard full of Brit stuff.  I have a pair of Alvis TA-14's.  One is a sedan and the second is  a DHC.  I also have the remains of an Alvis TA-21 which I will be massaging into my take on a British inspired Special.  Keep up the good work on the MG.

Al

Edited by alsfarms (see edit history)
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As per distortion, while I'll try to minimize it, I also plan to just deal with it.  I think the key for me will be to have a very constant pace such that the shrinkage is consistent and can be countered with a hammer and dolly. 

That's the plan anyway.  We shall see how well that works once I start on some old fenders.  Most of my plans are quickly proven flawed... 

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I took a piece of 20ga sheet metal and turned over the sides to make a mini "fender".  I cut a small rectangle out and then made a patch panel to replace it.  I welded that in and it went OK.  Some of the tacks were easy to make but in a couple of places one of the sides either raised up or sunk away such that the two pieces were too far apart to tack.   At this point I would stop the torch and use a hammer/dolly to get the edges back together, relight the torch and try again.   Eventually I got all the tacks and welded between them.  It didn't go that well so I change to a doubler aught tip (was using a triple aught) and reflowed the joint.  That went pretty well but, obviously, that's a lot more heat.  I used a hammer/dolly to expand the welded areas some to get things back to flat.  All in all it turned out OK.  I'm going to order some more sheet metal and do this several more times.  I'll be needing more oxygen soon as well.  

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You are getting it.  Welding simply takes practice to get it right and improve.  Are you planning to use some heat sink clay to keep your heat from welding confined to a smaller area and thus less expansion and contraction?

Al 

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1 minute ago, alsfarms said:

You are getting it.  Welding simply takes practice to get it right and improve.  Are you planning to use some heat sink clay to keep your heat from welding confined to a smaller area and thus less expansion and contraction?

Al 

 

Thanks, that's the first I've heard of using clay as a heat sink but it sounds like a great idea?  Do you have some more details on that? 

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It is not a true clay, but a heat sink material that behaves and feels like clay.  I have a can in the shop I will get some information on it and share here.  Anything you can do to minimize the affects of heat swell in your body panels is less monkey business you have to do to have a nice smooth body panel in the end without  an inch of bondo!

Al

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I thought for sure they would be 18 but I measured them and found them closer to 20.  It could be because of where I measured... I might take some more samples and see what I find.  I think 18 would make a huge difference.    The 1913 Metz is 24g... so I'm going to need a lot of practice and patience for that!!!

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Still plodding along.  One of the repairs I've been dreading since day one is the quarter panel.  The quarter panel is, of course, steel wrapped and nailed around a wood frame.   Removing those nails and unwrapping the sheet metal is quite a chore.  Where the metal has gone around curves it has been expertly shrunk flat... the reverse is required to get it off and I had a tough time getting the doors done.   I finally decided to tackle that this afternoon and I was quite surprised to find that it can be slipped off.  Once the screws, nails and rivets have been removed the back comes out a bit, then forward a touch, then up and a slight rotate up while pulling the front up and the panel off nicely without much distortion.  I am glad I took it off because I found that these panels are separated by felt and that felt has probably been in there since it was made and there was a fair amount of surface rust.  I will need to do some research and find a suitable replacement that might be better at not holding water.  I will most likely take off the other quarter panel to treat that surface rust as well.  Glad it is easy to do!!

 

The wood along the top is fine but the vertical piece, at least at the bottom, could use some work.  I'll probably end up making a new vertical piece and re-glue/screw the joints. 

 

The welding practice has been going very well.  I've tackled a few small jobs I needed to do and it went very smoothly. 

 

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Edited by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)
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Use 30 weight tar paper instead of the felt. It won’t hold water and I use it all the time for anti squeak or shims for wood to metal fit. In other places black hockey stick tape works well.

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Jeff, great progress!

 

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but, chistech,  this sounds like a good idea.  With my MGA resto, I have the same issue with my wooden floorboards against the metal chassis.  I was going to go with an eastwood sealer, similar to body seam sealant, but seeing your post, I may reconsider.  

 

christech, do you think 30 weight tar paper would be a good replacement for the felt originally used between my metal chassis and plywood floorboards?  Seems the answer would be yes.  If so, where do you get 30 weight tar paper?  Thanks guys.

 

Chris

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After seeing the rust in that quarter panel it seemed likely that the rest of the panels were the same but just hadn't gotten to the point the rust ate through.  I think this is because neither the metal nor the wood were sealed before assembly.  I guess the epoxy primers we have today just were not available then.  As such... I took it all apart.  I'll replace a piece of wood or two, all of the wood panels, re-glue and screw the frame.  I'll epoxy primer the wood and metal frame, each of the sheet metal panels and then reassemble using the 30 weight tar paper (as suggested by chistech) between areas that originally had felt.  I feel that with two good coats of epoxy primer on everything prior to assembly it should be good for many, many years to come.  I'm headed to the lumber yard on Friday to get some marine grade plywood and some more 8/4 ash.  I'm pretty fortunate that we have a fantastic lumber yard about 45 minutes north of me.  

 

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Edited by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)
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Roger:  No, in addition to time to build, the structural integrity is sketchy at best.  The MG TD certainly has "crumple zones" but not quite like the modern definition of that. :)
 

At the start of this week the goal was to take the body off the frame.  That has been completed, however, not the way I had imagined.  The body is off the frame, but it came off piece by piece and is now stacked on a table. :(

 

I'm glad I hadn't already gone to the lumber yard because the requirement for ash has gone way up.   Fixing all of this will not take that much time and I do enjoy the wood work aspect so I'm not too disappointed but I was hoping to get the car in paint before the end of the year.  That seems to be a stretch now.

 

 

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On 11/8/2019 at 9:24 AM, alsfarms said:

Your car must have lived in a damp environment.  I have an Alvis that shows the same issues and it came from Pa.

Al

Al,

The car, at least since 1975, has spent its time in the South (Georgia and South Carolina).  I believe it was stored inside most of this time but I don't think the buildings were climate controlled.  As such, you had the humid south and likely pretty big temperature swings at times producing some condensation. 

 

Media blasted two of the panels on the right side, no other problems found.  One positive of having the body completely dissembled is that it now fits in the blast cabinet so I don't have to use the Clogmaster 2000. 

 

Rough cut two of the pieces I'm replacing.  I was pretty lazy this weekend but the little time I did spend in the shop went well.  Hoping to get a little more done this coming week.

 

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Edited by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)
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I have to admit, looking at the stack of parts on the 2x4 frame reminds me of scenes I see all over New England in fields. It looks just like a logging sled or farm wagon frame used by the farmers here. When they finally retired them, they would just stack the pieces of them and others on top of them. I personally bought a 29’ Chevy 1 1/2 ton truck in just the condition I described. It was in pieces and everything was just stacked flat on top of it. It ran good and I ended up selling it before I ever started working on it. Seeing since my family was originally  in the slaughtering business, I was going to make a cattle truck out of it, pt the family name on the door, and put one of those life size fiberglass cows in the bed! Unfortunately it didn’t happen, well, at least yet. 😆 

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Got everything blasted and treated. Sheet metal is either ready for patching or ready for primer. 

For the wood I decided to try Bondo Wood filler on a couple of questionable pieces.  I'm not using it to rebuild structural areas but more to fill in little notches and nicks that might either be left as is, have a piece scarfed in, or result in a new piece being made.  This certainly is the easier and more accurate of the choices.  I'll need to see how it handles brads/screws running through it.  I wouldn't use it somewhere that it would need to hold the screw/brad, but I think going through it into solid wood should be fine.  Like I say... I'll just need to see how it reacts.  It seems a bit more pliable.  Bondo has a companion product (rot restorer??) that is an epoxy much like West Systems.  I treated some of the less dense areas with that as well.  Both of them are rather expensive but they're easy to work with.  Mix the filler in small batches and trim it with a razor blade before it fully sets.

 

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Edited by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)
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Front frame assembled.  I replaced the sill and front rib.  I need to test fit the replacement riser in the back fender and then I can secure it on the sill.  I'll probably have to assemble the whole side on the supporting rail to verify that the front and rear meet correctly.

 

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