Transmission oil/grease

[Wheelmang]

So, I did a search on this subject and found a wide variety of recommendations and am now more confused then ever. The most significant confusing point had a pre 1926 recommendation and regarded really heavy weight 140 W rating. I was of the impression that late teens to late twenties was pretty much equal for the DBs. The lubricant in my 1926 DB sedan transmission and rear end has likely not been changed in a very long while. I would like to drain it and replace it before any thing more than a drive around the yard. What should I use?

Thanks all for the input

Paul 

[nearchoclatetown]

Look for and find STEAM CYLINDER OIL. I found it from a supplier that sells to a steam railroad close by. Some people add a tube of grease to it. The way to add it is to make or buy a pint stirrer and add a little at a time while mixing it with the pait stirrer on an electric drill. A screw driver should almost stand by itself in the oil when it is thick enough. Of course opinions on this will vary.

[Spinneyhill]

Is "steam cylinder oil" good in the high shear situations in a differential and gearbox? Without looking it up, I suspect not.

 

From what I have read on these fora, the Model A fraternity seem to use a "600 w" oil which is actually somewhere between SAE 140 and 250. Use an oil designed for gears.

[22touring]

LUB164 is what you want:

 

https://www.restorationstuff.com/ecommerce/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1089

[R.White]

I have been using steam cylinder oil for several years (largely because I bought a large container of the stuff and it doesn't get changed very often.!!)  It has an ISO 3348 rating for industrial oils of 680 which equates to SAE 140 (J306 gear oils).  This is what I use in my transmission.  The rear axle has a similar (but unknown) gear oil but as it is quiet I have left well alone.  To be honest, there have been occasions when, despite rebuilding the gearbox, I have felt that a higher viscosity oil would be better because the gear change is somewhat slower than I would like.  These gearboxes are designed in such a way that double de clutching has no beneficial effect so a heavier oil would allow the gear rotation to decelerate more quickly therefore I would be inclined to go with the LUB 164 which is a 1500 w (equivalent to SAE 250).  In the case of the '26 transmission, the noisy 1st and 2nd gears may also be quietened down -  which would  be no bad thing.

 

My only reservation with using such a heavy gear oil is the drag element.  Anything that saps the meagre performance of the car must be considered detrimental.

 

Ray.

[RichBad]

Bob B recommended to me Caltex/Chevron Meropa 1000 (and with the miles he's done that's probably a good indicator of it being good)

Penrite also have a Product that looks like it's a perfect match - T250 (but probably costs more than Meropa) description here https://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/transoil-sae-250

Edited February 27, 2018 by RichBad (see edit history)

[DB26]

I was going to ask this same question. I was rather confused as well. I came to the conclusion I needed either 600w or 1500w

[R.White]

 This coloured chart shows comparative viscosities. 

 

 

http://www.tribology-abc.com/abc/viscosity.htm#SAE306

Edited February 27, 2018 by R.White (see edit history)

[Wheelmang]

3 hours ago, R.White said:

This coloured chart shows comparative viscosities. 

That comparison chart really helped clear things up. I was thinking 140W is really thick and could not imagine how the car would have enough power to turn the gears in 1500W. Now I learned my new thing for the day and it is time to go get greasy. 

[22touring]

"Everybody is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

 

The plain fact of the matter is that in a straight-cut gear, non-synchro transmission you need the thickest gear oil you can get in order to help prevent grinding when shifting into gear at a stop, and when shifting between gears.  Other opinions to the contrary notwithstanding,  this means you should use LUB164 because it is the thickest.

[R.White]

When choosing a gear oil for cars of this era which use brass/bronze bearing and bushings do not use EP oil.

 

"Every one is entitled to their opinion... 

 Everyone is entitled to my opinion"

 

- R.White.

[Spinneyhill]

14 hours ago, Wheelmang said:

I was thinking 140W is really thick and could not imagine how the car would have enough power to turn the gears in 1500W

Please don't use that big W after the numbers; it is meaningless and contradictory. It means something in oils, = "winter" roughly. "140W" is really SAE 140 oil - look at the chart. And what the ... is 1500W? what scale is that? You probably mean SAE 250, at the top of the range of that classification. Please use the terminology of the chart.

[Bloo]

IIRC 1500 (and 1200 and 2000) exist or existed. I do not recall if there were any "W's" involved. This is the sort of stuff you might find in a brass era transmission. Semi fluid grease. Maybe like NLGI 00?

[DB26]

1500w is LUB164

 

[RichBad]

2 hours ago, DB26 said:

1500w is LUB164

 

I believe LUB164 is just Caltex/Chevron/Texaco Meropa ISO1500 that’s been decanted and labelled LUB164. (Perhaps misleading with the W suffix).

 

Details here - http://www.chevronlubricants.com/en_US/products/products/meropa.html#.WpZqK3A7aEc

 

It’s a mild EP gear oil.  Bob B recommended the ISO1000 grade and that’s what he uses (and he’s done many hundred thousand miles in his Dodges so probably we’ll placed to recommend).  Perhaps the ISO1500 grade is better on a well worn box? 

 

 Interesting that the the restoration supply company are marketing it as ‘good with yellow metals’ as it’s an EP (all be it mild).  Probably makes no difference for Dodges as they don’t seem to have copper/brass bushes in the diff or gearbox (my 1927 doesn’t).  

 

Extract from the manual if you still live in the 20s

 

Just my opinion;)

[Spinneyhill]

But what is the ASTM D130 test result (copper strip corrosion test) for Meropa ISO 1500? Restoration Stuff give no information about it at all that I can find. It has EP addtives, so they must pass that test if you have copper or copper-containing metals where-ever you put it.

 

Searching..... Here it is: https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=336301&docFormat=PDF

page 5 gives the ISO 1000 and 1500 results. 1A after 3 hours at 121^oC and 1B after 168 hours at 100^oC. Xclnt.

[R.White]

I think the oil companies are their own worst enemy when it comes to making things over complicated. The science may be over the heads of  the general public in which case a simple user guide should be available.  As far as I am concerned, EP gear oil is unsuitable in running gear which contains yellow metals.  The lay shaft bushings on my '26  transmission are brass (or bronze?) and are prone to wear even without corrosive chemicals so I would suggest  one should  probably take care to read the label before using.  Fortunately, the bushings referred to can be replaced with the gearbox in situ when they become worn.   

 

Ray. 

[Wheelmang]

11 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Please don't use that big W after the numbers; it is meaningless and contradictory. It means something in oils, = "winter" roughly. "140W" is really SAE 140 oil - look at the chart. And what the ... is 1500W? what scale is that? You probably mean SAE 250, at the top of the range of that classification. Please use the terminology of the chart.

Thanks for the correction. You are 100% right. The "W" was the primary cause for my confusion in the first place. 

[Mpgp1999]

I was told by an old timer that the oil weight system changed some time ago. The new correct gear oil weight is 1500w I was able to get a 5 gallon bucket (almost a lifetime supply) for $85 with free shipping from an industrial supply company.  When I bought the car the previous owner had 140w or something it was quite ineffective as it would leak out of the transmission and ultimately lead to catastrophic transmission failure due to insignificant  lubrication. The old transmission just tore is self apart. In the “new” one I used brand new sealed bearings  to improve the life of transmission and bearings.  

 

NLGI 000  for those in very warm climates you could even go with NlGI 0000  which is very thick and heavy.  It is like molasses on a cold winter day. 

 

 

Matthew 

Edited March 28, 2018 by Mpgp1999
Add information (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

Is there an "oil weight system"? Not read about it... The system is a viscosity based system ("weight" and density does not feature) and it was first introduced in 1924 or thereabouts. By the early '30s manufacturers were beginning to use it. There was an upgrade in 1939 and there have been other upgrades since. The SAE viscosity bands may have been tweeked over time, but they date back to the 1920s.

 

What does 1500w mean? Do you mean ISO 1500? Similarly , what is 140w? Do you mean SAE 140? It would be wonderful if we all used the correct terminology.

[Grimy]

20 hours ago, Mpgp1999 said:

The new correct gear oil weight is 1500w I was able to get a 5 gallon bucket (almost a lifetime supply) for $85 with free shipping from an industrial supply company.  

Can you please tell us the company?  That's a very good price!  Thank you in advance

[Power Wagon Dude]

"D-B Oilers",

 

 CHEVRON Mobil puts out 1500 W "Cylinder Oil"  in 5 Gal. plastic buckets / pails. Its generally available through your local Bulk Distributor - See "Petroleum Wholesalers" in Yellow Pages.

 

 The last time I bought 5 Gallons - Maybe 6 years ago - I paid around $ 90.00 + Tax - Picked-up from the Wholesalers dock. This is GOOD stuff and way less expensive than buying it in 1 Quart Cans

 

 If you are in California check-out:  www.wbbreshears.com     Their Main Office is located in Modesto, with sales offices all over the Central Valley.

 

 Good Luck,

 

 Power Wagon Dude

 

 

 

 

[Grimy]

Thank you, Power Wagon Dude!

[Mpgp1999]

On 29/3/2018 at 5:24 PM, Grimy said:

Can you please tell us the company?  That's a very good price!  Thank you in advance

 

This is the gear oil I used. I paid $84 including shipping in June of 2015. I don’t have the bucket because I put it in an old gear oil bucket to look period.  But I checked my card statement and found this charge. 06/03 Red Drum Trading Inc 732-882-3849 NJ Card 7567 $84.00.  After a quick google search I found this oil. I would call the industrial Lubricant supply company directly to get a better price. Or you can get NLGI 0000 which is heavier. If you are in a warm climate.

 

Do not forget to use Lucas oil stabilizer additive.  It clings to the gears and helps lube the transmission. I also put a zinc additive because modern oils don’t have it anymore.  I also use Valvoline® VR1 Racing Oil - SAE 60 Summer SAE 30 Winter 

 

It states 

• High zinc/phosphorus provides extreme wear protection, including flat tappet applications
• Additional friction modfiers to help deliver maximum horsepower
• Enhanced anti-foam system protects engine during extreme stress
• Compatible with gasoline or alcohol fuels

 

 

I hope this helps 

 

 

Matthew 

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0288/5248/files/EP000-Pail-PDS.pdf

Edited March 31, 2018 by Mpgp1999 (see edit history)

[Grimy]

Thanks very much, Matthew!

 

George aka Grimy

[Spinneyhill]

4 hours ago, Mpgp1999 said:

Do not forget to use Lucas oil stabilizer additive.  It clings to the gears and helps lube the transmission. I also put a zinc additive because modern oils don’t have it anymore.

Surely if you need the stabilizer your oil is rubbish? The OIL should be lubricating the transmission. If it NEEDs the additive, get a better oil! Oils are "stable" 'else they would not be on the market.

 

I have not heard of zinc in a gear oil either. For engines, CI-4 diesel oil contains all the zinc you will ever need.

 

If you use a synthetic oil, forget about zinc. ANY synthetic oil is better than ALL mineral oils at minimising wear - review the wear test data for yourself.

[Spinneyhill]

On 27/02/2018 at 7:13 AM, nearchoclatetown said:

Look for and find STEAM CYLINDER OIL.

Does steam cylinder oil have the additives needed in high shear gear sets?

[R.White]

33 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said:

Does steam cylinder oil have the additives needed in high shear gear sets?

 

That, Spinneyhill,  is a very good question.  I have often wondered if straight cut gears need the shear protection afforded by EP oils in the same way that hypoid gears do.  If they do, then steam cylinder oil lacks the strength required for long term protection.  I suspect, (but have no evidence) that the heavier oils are used because  1) they are better at slowing down the gear sets enough to achieve a quiet change and 2) there is a stated risk from EP oils to yellow metals found in older transmissions.

 

Ray.

[Ron Lawson]

I have stated before on these forums that Penrite make an oil that is suitable for our old transmissions ans rear ends This oil is formulated for use in the above applications where  "yellow metal" is used Plus it's a great Aussie Company 

[Spinneyhill]

Another question about "steam cylinder oil" concerns how much it foams, which will affect how well it lubricates in a box of spinning stirring agents.

 

I once saw a demonstration of a naphtha gear oil vs a standard gear oil, most of which are made from paraffin oils. The naphtha oil (and its additives) did NOT foam at all when beaten with an egg beater (hand driven two interlocking spinning cages) - it climbed up inside the egg beater. The other oil foamed and frothed and moved away from the spinning egg beater parts, up the sides of the bowl. There should be minimum foaming in a gear oil and it should not run away from the gears! 

 

There is also the question of viscosity. I see suggestions here for really thick, viscous oils - one of the principle reasons is to reduce the leaks! Fix ya leaking boxes! Just remember that these really thick oils take a bit of power away from you and you have precious little already.

 

Just use an oil designed for gears. If it has EP additives, make sure it passes the Copper Strip Corrosion test with a 1a result and it will be what you need. A 1b result for the hot extended hours test is acceptable. If you can't find the test results, look for an oil for which you can find it.

 

 

[Guest]

I have read all the information about lubricants on these A.A.C.A. forums for years.  Until it became hard to find I used 140 gear lube.  Since then I have used 600W as it is readily available from any vintage Ford supplier.  Since I have had to rebuild my C&P and rear end bearings three times in 500,000 miles is it possible that the use of steam cylinder oil has been responsible for my short rear end life????

[R.White]

I am not sure the diff. takes as much punishment as a gearbox; not least because everything is in constant mash.

 

Here in the U.K. we have a miniature vintage car; the Austin Seven.  I suppose it could be regarded as our version of a "people's" car.  The recommended lubrication for the diff was 50% gear oil and 50% grease.  Personally, I consider this to be appalling!

 

Ray.

[Spinneyhill]

2 hours ago, Tinindian said:

it possible that the use of steam cylinder oil has been responsible for my short rear end life?

I would probably say it has. Use an oil appropriate for gears and bearings as in the differential. Surely steam cylinder oil is not made for this job and doesn't have the right additives in it?

 

But what is "600W" oil? The W has no meaning. Is it ISO600 viscosity oil? The SAE 140 (gear oils) range covers viscosities from the ISO 320 range to ISO 680, or kinematic viscosities from ca 330 to 750 cSt at 40 ^oC. So why not use an 85W-140 with the 140 part in the upper part of the SAE 140 range? Check the copper strip corrosion test results if you have any copper-containing metals in there (or copper washers under bolt heads to stop leaks).

Edited March 30, 2018 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

2 hours ago, R.White said:

The recommended lubrication for the diff was 50% gear oil and 50% grease.  Personally, I consider this to be appalling!

Me too!

 

Remember that the oils and greases they had were very poor by today's standards. They had no additives appropriate for running gears. I have posted a number of times about what my 1940 text book says about the well known problems with the oils of the day. One of them was lack of decent gear oils, or at least additives that allow them to do the job asked of them.

[RichBad]

600W was specified in the Dodge books but both the number and W could be misleading as they don’t appear to be from any current classification systems (ISO, SAE etc).

 

I’m sure someone could do a thesis on this and there would still be arguments about what is best.  My opinion is to use what has been tried and tested and shown to work well.  Meropa ISO1000, 1500 and Penrite 250 appear to have been used by many with no issues.

 

FYI, the Penrite 250 gear oil is recommended for this era of vehicles and also mentions that it is similar consistency to the old 600W gear oil.  See here https://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/transoil-sae-250

 

Cheers  

 

 

[Bloo]

1 hour ago, RichBad said:

600W was specified in the Dodge books but both the number and W could be misleading as they don’t appear to be from any current classification systems (ISO, SAE etc).

 

That is because "600W" never referred to viscosity or "weight". It referred to something else, probably the flash point in Fahrenheit, but I can't prove that.

 

Today "600W" is just a trademark owned by Mobil oil. Saying "600W' is not like saying "SAE-160" or "ISO-680". It is more like saying "Havoline" or "Spirax" or "Meropa" or "Mobil1".

 

Mobil still makes steam cylinder oil under the trademark "600W". They make it in two different viscosities. They also make "Extra Hecla" steam cylinder oil in two more viscosities. Look here for specifications:

 

https://www.mobil.com/english-us/industrial/pds/glxxmobil-cylinder-oils

 

Many older vehicles specified 600W in the transmission, not just Dodges. Today all the Model A Ford suppliers have "600W". It is usually rebottled (probably because it is unavailable in small quantities). I have no idea if it is really "Mobil 600W", some other brand of steam cylinder oil, or simply "some oil that nicely meets the needs of Model A transmissions" in the bottle. You would have to ask. Probably the latter would be better.

 

You wouldn't buy a bottle of Havoline engine oil today for instance, and expect the exact same oil to be in the bottle as 1930. Even if it were, something better may have come along.

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

24 minutes ago, Bloo said:

You wouldn't buy a bottle of Havoline engine oil today for instance, and expect the exact same oil to be in the bottle as 1930. Even if it were, something better may have come along.

 

Really? Are you saying it is poor quality base stock with no additives? Even if it were rated SN/CJ-4? How about their API SN Synthetic Blend? I think there might be a bit of prejudice in your statement? Please enlighten us on the facts of why this brand of oil is no good.

 

BTW, Havoline is a brand belonging to Chevron.

[Bloo]

2 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Really? Are you saying it is poor quality base stock with no additives? Even if it were rated SN/CJ-4? How about their API SN Synthetic Blend? I think there might be a bit of prejudice in your statement? Please enlighten us on the facts of why this brand of oil is no good.

 

Not at all. I like Havoline. I must have written that very badly, but I can't seem to see it right now. I'll have another look when I am less tired.

 

Havoline, like 600W, is just a brand of oil. What I am suggesting is that the formula has changed, and probably a lot, in the last 80 or so years.

 

Mobil's current 600W, in the link, is rated for worm gear service, and that is severe gear service, because worm gears wipe the oil off like hypoid gears do. I am sure it is fine for lubricating some gears. I doubt it much resembles steam cylinder oil from 80 years ago, because oil engineers have had decades to develop better steam cylinder oil.

 

600W today implies nothing about viscosity. I believe (but can't prove) that 600W and SAE-160 were interchangeable for automotive transmission use when the SAE-160 oils appeared in the mid 1930s. Today SAE-160 does not exist, SAE-140 and SAE-250 are the closest. As you probably know, these SAE grades are not a specific viscosity but are ranges. There are charts, but it is tough to directly cross reference.

 

Ray W, over on the VCCA forums researched this, and came to the conclusion that the old SAE-160 was much more like SAE-250 than SAE-140. He was working with Chevrolet's first SYNCROMESH transmission, the one that ended in 1936. IIRC the factory recommendation was 600W or SAE-160 depending on year. The transmissions themselves are apples and oranges thanks to the synchromesh, however he believes he has found a true equivalent to the old SAE-160 (in viscosity). The product is Lubriplate SPO-288, an ISO 680 oil that falls into the SAE-250 range.

 

Current Mobil 600W is ISO 460 (lighter) for the "600 W Super" and even lighter yet (with no ISO rating) for the "600 W".

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Pete K.]

I've been using straight STP for many years with good results, no "side affects" in any of the early cars I've had/have.