1933 Buick Series 90 Model 91

[Taylormade]

It's lead, the "body filler" of the day.  The old lead needs to be melted out and the area re-leaded, which takes some skill.

[cevensky]

Good to know... I'll be more careful around it ?

Most of it looks good, but some is also unnecessary.

[DavidMc]

Sorry for butting in but I am curious , why would you melt out the old lead if its sound.   Also if it must be removed what is wrong with replacing it with bondo especially one of the fiber reinforced varieties

[Taylormade]

IT's not always necessary.  I've seen lead in perfect shape after eighty years, and I've seen it deteriorated, cracking and falling apart.  On a full restoration, I'd take it out, make sure the surface below is in good shape, then replace with new lead - especially on a car with failed paint that's been out in the elements. Not always necessary, but a simple choice of how far you want to go.  Body filler, even the reinforced variety might work, but I would question it's flexibility over a period of time.  Filler is designed to be used in very thin coats, not in quarter inch slabs.  Some of these leaded areas need a thicker coverage than practical with filler.  But use what you think is practical, I've certainly been wrong before - and will be again.  ?

[cevensky]

Had the carpenter out today. He came and fit the wood on the spot since we don't have any of the bottom wood. Only a few more pieces he'll need to do this for.

I've been a little busy getting a model A running that sat for 20 years and a '29 dodge brothers (DA Deluxe? Standard Six? Not sure) made it to my place on Wednesday. Oh well! 

 

[chistech]

Couple of things. First, all the threads and talk here on the AACA of how our hobby is dying and the kids aren’t interested. Cevensky is 22! Think about that. Look at the work he’s done already. Restoring the Jeep, getting some other early cars up and running. Many would never touch a wood bodied car at 40,50,or ever. Perhaps it’s because he’s new to this or hasn’t heard all the horror stories yet. It’s his enthusiasm and his “anything can be done” attitude that separates a good restorer from the “story tellers” and hacks. Will he make mistakes, yup, those who dive into projects like this always do. But he’ll make that mistake only once and learn from his personal experience at the same time getting better and better at restoring so he’ll be able to tackle any project down the road. Kudos to you my friend and keep up the good work. Now we just need to find about 5000 more of you for the future.

 

The other thing is just a question. It’s hard to tell from the pictures but the main sills should have a graceful curve to the outside edge I believe. In the picture they look straight. I’ve done quite a few wood bodied Chevys but not a Buick but I doubt the outside edge of the sill and the body line/doors, don’t have a curve to them. I know of a pretty rare car where the owner/restorer made the mistake of keeping the outside edge perfectly straight and the doors’s back edge where it meets the latch pillar looks terrible on an otherwise decent restoration. The rocker panel metal and the doors  will help give you the right curve. As was stated earlier, it all starts with the sills. If the curve is off just a 1/4 on the bottom, the door will be way out at the top when you try and assemble it. Of course I don’t know anything of your carpenters experience so he might already know that. All wood used should be select grade white ash.

[keiser31]

Got any photos of the Dodge you got??

[cevensky]

Thanks for the words chistech. At the end of the day, we're less the "owners" of these cars and more stewards since they will outlast us, regardless of how old or young you may be. I'm young and able to restore, so that's what I'm doing now, but one day long down the road maybe I'll come into the care of some fine restored cars as current owners need to, or have to, let go of them. And definitely, mistakes have been and will continue to be made. It's how I learn best ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

As for the wood: it does in fact have the curve you're talking about, it's just not visible in the pictures because it's covered by the rocker panel metal that we used to estimate the curve, which can be fine tuned if needed with a sander. But this Buick does have a very pronounced taper from rear to front. Again, I really appreciate comments like these to make sure I'm doing things right. For example, I hate to not use the beautiful rims but based on the advice here, I may not and it's turning out to be an incredible inconvenience, holding me up considerably. But, I can't waste money on them if they aren't good.

Edited April 26, 2018 by cevensky (see edit history)

[cevensky]

Keiser, yes I do and I picked up the rebuilt starter the other day too! Has a large rust through on driver's side lower cowl... other than that, minor stuff. I mean... minor to me ?

 

Edited April 26, 2018 by cevensky (see edit history)

[F&J]

Hi, I found this older thread by reading your Pontiac restoration.  Lots of things to read in both project threads.  When I was a teen in the 60s, I bought a 35 Buick black sedan from a farm field for $5 and the farmer hauled it to my parents home 2 towns away for $10 more.  It was too far gone, but we did get it to run and took a joyride in it one day with no brakes and no muffler.  I do recall it had a lot of hill pulling power.

 

So, I've always looked at similar year Buick restoring threads.  Yours is an amazing find, being it's the 90, and sidemounts and the town car body.  33 would be my ultimate choice if I was shopping for a Buick, (but I have enough stuff to work on). 

 

Also back then, my Uncle delivered a 42 Jeep like yours for my Dad to get running, .... but I got it running and took a ride in the woods and never forgot it.  My son just got a 46 Jeep last winter from a junkyard and we "fixed it up" and now he uses it every day on his small farm for chores.

 

Lastly, I saw your woodgraining on your Pontiac thread, and that gave me the inspiration that I should try it myself on my 32 Nash. 

[cevensky]

F&J, appreciate you stopping by and sharing the stories. 

Unfortunately my carpenter ran off with $700 and didn’t do nearly that much work. I tried to reach him many times, so now the Buick sits waiting for some stroke of luck (also known as the day I have any kind of income). I look at it and don’t see a terrible amount of work aside from the wood, but nobody will touch it. Boy, I’d be set if I could just get enough wood in to take the body off and store it some place dry.

Try the wood grain! It was a lot of fun!

[GARY F]

Going to be a great looking car. I like those big 4 Drs.  Did the carpenter say why he quit?

[cevensky]

Gary, he never returned a text or call. I did everything short of banging down his door but that was two years ago now. I suppose I’ll have to learn how to do it myself. The wood is just so daunting, partly due to cost and partly to size. It’s not monstrously expensive, but it’s the unknown: other cars I can get an idea of what I need to spend because what I need is made and has a price tag. What I’d love to do is get it out of the garage it’s in now. 

[1912Staver]

One of the big problems with sedans this far gone is the lack of original  wood parts for patterns. If the doors are going to fit correctly, open , close and latch securely the new wood has to be a 99 % at least

dimensional duplicate of factory.  Without more or less intact original  wood to work from  any wood worker you hire is forced to guess on many important dimension decisions. In the end things won't fit, doors 

will rub on the body, doors will fly open going over bumps etc. Any wood worker skilled enough to handle a job like this also knows this is a job to steer clear of . Unless of course there is a budget large enough to 

draw up a set of detailed plans and solve all the problems before any sawdust is created. Those plans would be a major undertaking in themselves, and need the services of a draftsman or engineering tech ,

not a woodworker, although a draftsman with a good woodworking background wouldn't hurt.

 You need to find someone with a better example of this car that is partially apart; interior removed at least, and take hundreds of photo's /drawings and record every  conceivable dimension, angle of joints. method of 

morticing , dove tailing etc.  Otherwise it's just not going to end well. Without semi intact, original  wood or a very detailed technical drawing you are lost.

 

Greg

Edited September 18, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[cevensky]

Greg, that’s a defeatist attitude that doesn’t have much of a place in any garage I work in.

It’s not gonna be a concours car. Too far gone, probably never will be. What will probably happen is me putting angled metal in to reinforce the body, making changes to make things like up and close/open properly. I think your level of fear and over-complication is much much higher than my naïveté or over-simplification. At the end of the day, giving in or being too afraid to even try covers less ground than even an honest effort fraught with mistakes. 
Food for thought: 3/4 doors closed and opened perfectly, and made it on the trailer and 70 miles on Louisiana roads, nothing flew open. It’s possible to eyeball, cut, cut, sand, scrap it and try again till it’s achieved. I’m 24 and was offered the opportunity to dig into a brain tumor today, if that ain’t complicated then neither is a little wood.

[1912Staver]

I never really considered the street rodder's solution to wood body problems  on a  on a car like a  90 series Buick.  I was suggesting what would be needed to return the car to factory condition.  There are always  work arounds to serious problems if you are willing to deviate from 

original techniques and specifications . 

 If you are just looking to make it drivable than why not ?

Not so sure about the defeatist part however , just outlining how to rebuild a very complicated wood structure body and have things actually fit and function.  GM didn't make any part of this body without first having a technical drawing in hand. 

 

Greg

Edited September 19, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Steve9]

If it were my car and I as a young man I’d turn my attention to the Dodge which has way less wood than the Buick. Then with the success of completing that car, moving onto the Buick with the satisfaction and confidence of a finished restoration already under my belt, you probably would have connected with others with experience you can mine to undertake the wood job. (Sorry for the run-on sentence.) This hobby is the best when you can get involved in a club and be in the company of like-minded souls.

Edited September 19, 2020 by Steve9 (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

As to wordworking, most people I know have between 10K and 20K in their rewooding - the wood alone is probably pushing 3K just sitting on the shelf at the lumber yard.

[cevensky]

Steve, clubs with respect for restoration are non-existent here and I find national clubs to be a waste of money for someone who has no income. Large meets are always too far and the knowledge that is the biggest benefit of a club I can get from (1) the internet, which I know how to use well, and (2) all of the older "car guys" I hang out with in my neck of the woods. It's my own club.

I have several finished or in-progress-but-driving (+/-) restorations and projects on the road, so it's not about satisfaction or confidence, it's about feasibility. There is simply nobody in this area who is willing to do the wood.

It has been accepted for a while now that this Buick is a back burner project. The best thing anyone could have done for it, I have done. It was dug out of 8" of soil with pine trees surrounding it, literally growing up to encircle it. It is in a garage now.

My encouragement is intrinsic, I need not a club to cut down 20 pine trees in the 110F heat of a Louisiana June and hand winch it to a place a trailer could eventually back to it. 

I can also assure you all that I am not spending $10,000 for woodwork. And guess what. When it is done, the car will be beautiful, the doors will close, it will flex without cracking, and the interior will cover whatever I decide to put in for body support. 

I suppose that process will be cut out of any public documentation, since I don't want to be a street rodder.

See your words, Greg, they're too negative. Shot after shot. I appreciate realism, to a degree, and I wouldn't consider it "rodding" to use a different material that is not exposed to achieve an original goal of manufacture. Again, as far as wood, wood in the body is largely not visible. It's always off-putting, regardless of age, to be told what is to be done on your own project. I am not in this to sell cars, so I defer to my mantra in this area, "It's mine." 

 

[1912Staver]

Well.. you did ask for advice. John Mereness is is very involved with cars of this sort and made a number of the same points as I have , but yes probably a lot more diplomatically.  My basic message is find out as much as you can about exactly how Buick

built this car in the first place. And aim to replicate that engineering and execution as closely as your resources permit. Buick's  ; and Fisher body's, engineering  was extremely good in this era. Make the best use of it that you can. They built hundreds of thousands

of body's using this method of construction. By the time your car was built they really did have it down to a science.

 Sorry about the Street Rodder remark. Unfortunately that area is the only place where I have seen much use of after the factory metal reinforcement used. 

Regarding your problems finding a wood worker , if you first lay the groundwork and prepare detailed drawings I am sure you will find a wood worker willing to create the parts. If you are good with computers there are a number of low cost or no cost CAD programs out there.

As I mentioned , it's a lot easier to solve structural and joinery problems either at a drawing board or on a computer screen. 

 

We all wish you success with this car.  And I am sure most of us made mistakes ourselves when dealing with vintage car wood. It is a real headache for many people who have taken on cars like yours. 

 

Greg

 

[F&J]

1 hour ago, cevensky said:

The best thing anyone could have done for it, I have done. It was dug out of 8" of soil with pine trees surrounding it, literally growing up to encircle it. It is in a garage now.

I agree, you technically have already saved it, in a way. 

 

1 hour ago, cevensky said:

I can also assure you all that I am not spending $10,000 for woodwork. And guess what. When it is done, the car will be beautiful, the doors will close, it will flex without cracking, and the interior will cover whatever I decide to put in for body support. 

Me neither, I always do my own resto work.  My 32 Nash 2dr Conv had none of the original wood left.  The last owner bought the car to resell quickly, so he found modern oak furniture for boards to try to get the body assembled to look like a car. Nothing fit, no room in the door for the windows, doors overlapped and body panels all bent out of shape.

 

There was no way to get patterns for this unique body style.  I went with some new and mostly reused metal square and rectangular tubing instead, as I've done this before,.... the first one was in the late 1970s. .  The issue with tubing is that most car wood parts are curved, so just plan ahead in the design of what each piece needs to do.   The time consuming part that also needs lots of thinking ahead, is making solid threaded attachment points for latches, hinges, door strikers, door alignment wedges, and window tracks.  That eats a lot of time, but what's the alternative if a person cannot do the wood like factory.

 

Not as much steel components are needed compared to wood framing, and even with less bulk, it is far stronger than wood.

 

A few pieces of wood might be needed to make a nailing surface for something like the fabric roof.  That won't seem so daunting if all of your structure work is done. 

 

Lastly, a wood framed car sounds different than a steel framed one, like closing a door.  I used a lot of rubberized/aluminum backed self stick gutter repair stuff to help deaden the tinny sounds. I did inside of every outer body panel.

 

here is one thing you cannot do with a wood framed body, as over a very short time, the doors would not fit due to wood sagging if not sitting on the chassis.

 

I'm not talking about 1912Staver, but I have to say that I simply don't care about opinions on my choices on how to save any prewar car.  Many guys who act all perfect, have never done much besides write big checks.    These are also the people who won't buy any of these big projects, but get so angry when one gets fully street-rodded!...... so politely ignore them, as they are not willing or able to save a beautiful car like your 33-90 town sedan.  We are saving cars that nobody would buy, (more so as years go by!) Would they be happier to see them parted out?..i doubt that.

 

[Steve9]

4 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

 

 

We all wish you success with this car.  And I am sure most of us made mistakes ourselves when dealing with vintage car wood. It is a real headache for many people who have taken on cars like yours. 

 

 This is the number one reason why my antique car is an old Dodge; NO WOOD!

My hat is off to the ones who go there, but for me I’ll put it like Clint Eastwood,

”A man’s got to know his limitations “.

 

 

[JustDave]

Well said Friday.j. We know you are not afraid to get your hands dirty and I think most people respect that,if this young man is saving these cars maybe he has one or ten friends he can influence to do the same,I know some cars will be partedto help five get there’s finished but once there lost there lost forever

[JustDave]

Just now, JustDave said:

Well said F.j.  We know you are not afraid to get your hands dirty and I think most people respect that,if this young man is saving these cars maybe he has one or ten friends he can influence to do the same,I know some cars will be partedto help five get there’s finished but once there lost there lost forever

 

[John_Mereness]

On 9/19/2020 at 1:29 PM, F&J said:

 

 

The Buick owner may enjoy reading about your "woodworking" - I was just about to find your "page", but maybe you could post the link.  And absolutely nothing wrong with replacing the wood with metal. 

[John_Mereness]

I have made wood patterns out of fiberboard and then gone from there to duplicate in White Ash.   Not really a fun project though any way about it and most woodworkers I know really do not enjoy the work either.