Getting the color right

[Turbinator]

Gents,  an effort to get the color on the 63 Buick Riviera air cleaner holder as close as possible. In all cases: the version you see is my last attempt of “ getting it right”.

[kreed]

Bob- nice job . Were you able to get the "crinkle " feel ?  What paint did you use ? Got one to restore myself -trying to get up the nerve to do it . Thanks 

KReed

ROA 14549

[Scott Mckenzie]

VHT makes a crinkle red if you have to have crinkle . Bob that looks great,keep up the good work !

 

[Pat Curran]

The color looks pretty good Bob.  I don't know why GM used a crinkle finish to begin with.  It certainly wasn't practical.  

[Turbinator]

2 hours ago, Scott Mckenzie said:

VHT makes a crinkle red if you have to have crinkle . Bob that looks great,keep up the good work !

 

Scott, thanks for your valuable and appreciated input.

Red Riviera Bob

[Turbinator]

2 hours ago, kreed said:

Bob- nice job . Were you able to get the "crinkle " feel ?  What paint did you use ? Got one to restore myself -trying to get up the nerve to do it . Thanks 

KReed

ROA 14549

Ken, the recipe is simple. Strip all the paint off to bare metal. Wash it with soap and water. Dry it off good and use dark gray primer. Next spray with cream color paint. Lastly get the VH? Red hi temp paint and spray. Go light on each coat and you won’t get any drips.

This is Jim Cannon’s recipe- not mine. I used Jim’s method. Piece of cake. Getting the metal decal on secure and have the seems match up is another Jim Cannon instruction set.

ill send some close ups and you decide how much krinkle is there.

RRB

[RivNut]

2 hours ago, Pat Curran said:

The color looks pretty good Bob.  I don't know why GM used a crinkle finish to begin with.  It certainly wasn't practical.  

I've also wondered why Buick chose not to match the color of the decal and the air cleaner.

[Turbinator]

1 hour ago, RivNut said:

I've also wondered why Buick chose not to match the color of the decal and the air cleaner.

 

1 hour ago, RivNut said:

I've also wondered why Buick chose not to match the color of the decal and the air cleaner.

Ed, have not a clue. Actually, I thought the aluminum decal on my ac cleaner “holder” was incorrect. Since I’ve never seen the real deal so to speak I’m only guessing. I would think, like you, the metal decal color would match the canister color that holds the air cleaner. I’m sure there may be someone that knows the truth.

thank you

[Turbinator]

3 hours ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

Ken, the recipe is simple. Strip all the paint off to bare metal. Wash it with soap and water. Dry it off good and use dark gray primer. Next spray with cream color paint. Lastly get the VH? Red hi temp paint and spray. Go light on each coat and you won’t get any drips.

This is Jim Cannon’s recipe- not mine. I used Jim’s method. Piece of cake. Getting the metal decal on secure and have the seems match up is another Jim Cannon instruction set.

ill send some close ups and you decide how much krinkle is there.

RRB

Ken here are some close ups.

[RivNut]

1 minute ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

I’m sure there may be someone that knows the truth.

Probably took it to his grave with him. ?

[Turbinator]

13 hours ago, RivNut said:

Probably took it to his grave with him. ?

Ed, again you have it right. So much of automobile history is preserved you would think a color code for the air cleaner cover would exist. It is hard to believe the facts regarding the color of that particular air cleaner doesn’t exist some place. I suppose a history detective with time available could track down the color story.

RRB

[Turbinator]

On 2/9/2018 at 9:14 AM, kreed said:

Bob- nice job . Were you able to get the "crinkle " feel ?  What paint did you use ? Got one to restore myself -trying to get up the nerve to do it . Thanks 

KReed

ROA 14549

Ken, send it over I’ll do a good job for you. I don’t how much it will cost, but whatever it s you’ll like deal.

RRB

OR IF WANT to do it yourself I’ll walk you through how I do it.

[rodneybeauchamp]

Hi Bob and Jim,

would a white primer be a good choice instead of the grey primer to bring out the red in the VHT? ( not wanting to change the recipie but just a thought)

 

You have just given me a project for my new grit blast cabinet ?????

 

And I used some masking tape to join the seams on the aluminium decal plate and seems to work ok. Though this time I may use a silicone adhesive.

 

cheers

Rodney

 

[RivNut]

Rodney,  Ken,

 

Bob did a really nice job of getting the "wrinkle" in the paint but if you want your car to look 100% factory, you need to shy away from a solid red and get a little orange in the mix.

 

 

The color of this air cleaner is original / correct.  The orientation of thsi air cleaner is wrong.  The snorkel should be somewhere between 4:00 and 5:00.  There are tabs inside the breather base that line up with studs on the air horn of the carburetor that will align the breather correctly.  If the breather is aligned correctly, it cannot be rotated either direction.  Put the breather on in pieces, base, filter, lid, and wing nut and you can see the tabs and studs.  There are other "modified" items on this car that are not.  The owner has added some custom touches.  The inner fenders should be Satin black, as should the firewall* and the vacuum canister.  No fancy wiring covers either. So don't take this for gospel as correct - other than engine color and air cleaner color.

 

Jim Cannon's trick for hiding the seam in the aluminum disk is to paint the edges of the disk before gluing it down.  Plenty of glue and a large, heavy bag filled with sand sitting on top and covering the entire disk until the glue dries. You need to cover every square millimeter of surface with some weight until the glue dries.  

 

Ed

 

* The firewalls on the early production 1963 Rivieras are painted body color, but I do not know a date or an FB number for the change.  Jim's '63 Registry info may contain that info.

 

 

This picture has the correct under hood paint scheme but the color of the air cleaner is wrong.  It's really difficult to find a good picture of a correct 1963 Riviera engine compartment on line.  

 

[Turbinator]

Gents, here is another pic from iPad Pro in natural sunlight at 11:00 AM eastern standard time. You will notice the snorkel decal is missing and you can see the color the PO had. I waivered from Jim Connor’s instructions by using a lighter gray primer. If, memory serves me Jim wrote a dark gray primer goes on bare metal, followed by a cream color spray paint, then finish with red. One other gent suggested one would paint the ac cleaner orange in the first place.

[RivNut]

Here's a follow up to my previous post about correct air cleaner orientation.

 

Pictures:

The base with my green masking tape arrows showing the tabs.

 

The carburetor. Once again my green masking tape arrows pointing to the studs.

 

Finally the base properly oriented on the carb.  This picture is posed as if you're looking at the engine by standing in front of the radiator

 

Sorry about the dirt, just a couple of pieces I pulled from the shelf.

[EmTee]

On 3/19/2018 at 11:42 AM, RivNut said:

Sorry about the dirt, just a couple of pieces I pulled from the shelf.

 

No worries -- we all have spare carburetors and air cleaners gathering dust on the shelf! 

[Jim Cannon]

On 3/19/2018 at 9:25 AM, RivNut said:

<snip>

 

The color of this air cleaner is original / correct.  The orientation of thsi air cleaner is wrong.  The snorkel should be somewhere between 4:00 and 5:00.  There are tabs inside the breather base that line up with studs on the air horn of the carburetor that will align the breather correctly.  If the breather is aligned correctly, it cannot be rotated either direction.  Put the breather on in pieces, base, filter, lid, and wing nut and you can see the tabs and studs.  There are other "modified" items on this car that are not.  The owner has added some custom touches.  The inner fenders should be Satin black, as should the firewall* and the vacuum canister.  No fancy wiring covers either. So don't take this for gospel as correct - other than engine color and air cleaner color.

 

Jim Cannon's trick for hiding the seam in the aluminum disk is to paint the edges of the disk before gluing it down.  Plenty of glue and a large, heavy bag filled with sand sitting on top and covering the entire disk until the glue dries. You need to cover every square millimeter of surface with some weight until the glue dries.  

 

Ed

 

* The firewalls on the early production 1963 Rivieras are painted body color, but I do not know a date or an FB number for the change.  Jim's '63 Registry info may contain that info.

 

 

 

 

Ed-

Earliest known example of Firewall Sprayed Black (not body color) seen in March 1963 (03C)

 

 

[Jim Cannon]

On 3/19/2018 at 10:10 AM, Red Riviera Bob said:

Gents, here is another pic from iPad Pro in natural sunlight at 11:00 AM eastern standard time. You will notice the snorkel decal is missing and you can see the color the PO had. I waivered from Jim Connor’s instructions by using a lighter gray primer. If, memory serves me Jim wrote a dark gray primer goes on bare metal, followed by a cream color spray paint, then finish with red. One other gent suggested one would paint the ac cleaner orange in the first place.

 

 

I carefully sanded my original air cleaner down with very fine paper in order to establish what Buick sprayed on the air cleaner when new.  They used a dark grey primer, followed by the cream base color before the wrinkle red. That is where my instructions came from - forensic science.  My original red did not have an orange hue that I could see.

 

Ed shows an old original air cleaner with an orange hue.  How to we know that time and heat and age did not turn the original red paint into an orange hue? We could be trying to reproduce something that has changed and is not correct.

 

 

[RivNut]

7 hours ago, Jim Cannon said:

 

Ed-

Earliest known example of Firewall Sprayed Black (not body color) seen in March 1963 (03C)

 

 

Thanks,

 

If that's the case, I couldn't help anyway because my 63 (02E) is black.  I'll have to look sometime to see if there's a difference in gloss between the firewall and the inner fenders.

 

Ed

[Turbinator]

8 hours ago, Jim Cannon said:

 

 

I carefully sanded my original air cleaner down with very fine paper in order to establish what Buick sprayed on the air cleaner when new.  They used a dark grey primer, followed by the cream base color before the wrinkle red. That is where my instructions came from - forensic science.  My original red did not have an orange hue that I could see.

 

Ed shows an old original air cleaner with an orange hue.  How to we know that time and heat and age did not turn the original red paint into an orange hue? We could be trying to reproduce something that has changed and is not correct.

 

 

The same thing happens in our American music. We try to cover a tune exactly as recorded only to find out the the musical piece has a note or phrase that is not as intended. Another way to convey the idea of copying is we are trying to copy something that is wrong.

[RivNut]

I have a pristeen glossy factory brochure that shows that the air cleaner has an orange hue to it.  My new computer is not compatible with my old scanner so I can't post a picture of it.  You'll just have to believe me.  The air cleaner that I photographed is just one from the pile, the really nice one on my car is in storage and I'm not driving 65 miles just to take a picture of it. But they're both the same color.  ?

 

My fear is that because this original color is hard to match, that the copies that are wrong will become the norm.  ?

The bigger problem is that wrinkle finishes are so limited in color.  It appears that way too many restorers are going for tbe wrinkle finish regardless of color rather than going for the correct color.  Just the opposite of the music you spoke of.  But,  on the other hand,  aren't some of the later rendetions of older songs sometimes more pleasing to the ear than the original?  Willie Nelson's rendetion of Stardust is the best that I've heard.  Using this example does not mean that I'm willing to compromise my thoughts on the correct color for the air cleaner.

 

One other example is that so many 63 and 64 Riviera owners have installed the 65 and later Buick Rally wheels on their cars that those owners are now able to get away with showing their cars in the "stock" class rather than in the modified class at the ROA events. Tain't right but......

 

I'll keep digging for more photos of orange hued air cleaners.  

[Turbinator]

4 hours ago, RivNut said:

I have a pristeen glossy factory brochure that shows that the air cleaner has an orange hue to it.  My new computer is not compatible with my old scanner so I can't post a picture of it.  You'll just have to believe me.  The air cleaner that I photographed is just one from the pile, the really nice one on my car is in storage and I'm not driving 65 miles just to take a picture of it. But they're both the same color.  ?

 

My fear is that because this original color is hard to match, that the copies that are wrong will become the norm.  ?

The bigger problem is that wrinkle finishes are so limited in color.  It appears that way too many restorers are going for tbe wrinkle finish regardless of color rather than going for the correct color.  Just the opposite of the music you spoke of.  But,  on the other hand,  aren't some of the later rendetions of older songs sometimes more pleasing to the ear than the original?  Willie Nelson's rendetion of Stardust is the best that I've heard.  Using this example does not mean that I'm willing to compromise my thoughts on the correct color for the air cleaner.

 

One other example is that so many 63 and 64 Riviera owners have installed the 65 and later Buick Rally wheels on their cars that those owners are now able to get away with showing their cars in the "stock" class rather than in the modified class at the ROA events. Tain't right but......

 

I'll keep digging for more photos of orange hued air cleaners.  

Ed, I believe your brochure color AND I believe your description of the orange color on the air cleaner to be period correct. I suspect an agreed upon proof source of the color of the air cleaner by a recognized authority ( like AACA) is required to set the standard. I’m cool with the color you have provided.ive painted my air cleaner two or thee times. Stick a fork in me I’m done. I had fun doing the work and the air cleaner does a fine job sitting on top the carb.

Your explanation of a cover song done by other than the original recording artist can be more pleasing to the ear than the original can be entirely true.I meant if a musician or singer covering a song note for note of the original tune knowingly sing or play the same wrong note that was originally recorded is okay if that is what they want. Example, I play “Sitting On The Dock of the Bay” the way Otis and Steve Cropper recorded the tune. Otis played the ii and iii chord as Major chords when standard practice in American music today is the ii and iii chord in a Major key are voiced as a minor. Another musician I know adds the Dominant 7 in the chords he plays for “ Sitting on the Dock of the Bay” and it sounds great.

If I were to compete my car in shows with intentions of winning something I would have bias tires,stock exhaust system, and I”d probably wrestle away one of those more red/orange air cleaners from someone.?

[RivNut]

I looked again and found other pictures.  It appears that either the color from month to month may not have been consistent or perhaps as,  Jim says, who knows what heat and age may have done, but I saw something this time that I'd not made a note of before.  None of the original air cleaners for which I found pictures are painted in a gloss; they're all either a satin or flat finish. 

 

Back in '68, Carolyn and I used to sit in a little bar on the south side of Emporia and play G9, Otis singing "Sitting on the dock....." a couple of times per night.and drink PBR on tap.

Edited March 21, 2018 by RivNut (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

Random thoughts...

- Red turns orange over the years.

- It's entirely possible that different paints were used at different times during the production run.  There's no reason to assume that an air cleaner painted in October was identical to one painted the following April.

- Why not prime it, paint it with a light-color wrinkle finish, then cover with a top coat of the correct color?  Wouldn't that end up with the correct texture and color?

[Turbinator]

On 3/19/2018 at 7:44 AM, rodneybeauchamp said:

Hi Bob and Jim,

would a white primer be a good choice instead of the grey primer to bring out the red in the VHT? ( not wanting to change the recipie but just a thought)

 

You have just given me a project for my new grit blast cabinet ?????

 

And I used some masking tape to join the seams on the aluminium decal plate and seems to work ok. Though this time I may use a silicone adhesive.

 

cheers

Rodney

 

Rodney, I’ve had a devil of a time getting the seams to come in  place on the metal decal. I’m close with the seems and I am willing to live with less than perfect. BUT, 5 feet away the air cleaner is Rembrandt quality.?? on another? Please post a pic of your aircleaner with the white paint as opposed to the cream color. I’d be interested to see your fine work.

[KongaMan]

If the top coat is opaque, it doesn't matter what color is under it.

[Jim Cannon]

2 hours ago, KongaMan said:

If the top coat is opaque, it doesn't matter what color is under it.

 

Wrinkle red paint is NOT opaque.  You have to work with it to see what I mean.  The underlying color really influences what the final color looks like.

 

So perhaps instead of . cream base like Buick used, we should use an orange sherbet color.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2018 by Jim Cannon (see edit history)

[Turbinator]

3 hours ago, KongaMan said:

Random thoughts...

- Red turns orange over the years.

- It's entirely possible that different paints were used at different times during the production run.  There's no reason to assume that an air cleaner painted in October was identical to one painted the following April.

- Why not prime it, paint it with a light-color wrinkle finish, then cover with a top coat of the correct color?  Wouldn't that end up with the correct texture and color?

Mr. Konga Man, I believe a paint color code or name by the manufacturer of the shade appropriate orange/red would be helpful. 

( Granada ) Red Riviera Bob

[Turbinator]

3 hours ago, RivNut said:

I looked again and found other pictures.  It appears that either the color from month to month may not have been consistent or perhaps as,  Jim says, who knows what heat and age may have done, but I saw something this time that I'd not made a note of before.  None of the original air cleaners for which I found pictures are painted in a gloss; they're all either a satin or flat finish. 

 

Back in '68, Carolyn and I used to sit in a little bar on the south side of Emporia and play G9, Otis singing "Sitting on the dock....." a couple of times per night.and drink PBR on tap.

Ed, I can say PBR was one of my favorites. Ive been a R&B hound since I was a boy. 

Could an agreed upon color appropriate of the air cleaner be color matched at an automotive paint shop?

Thank you,

Bob Burnopp

 

[KongaMan]

5 minutes ago, Jim Cannon said:

 

Wrinkle red paint is NOT opaque.  You have to work with it to see what I mean.  The underlying color really influences what the final color looks like.

Using the process I mentioned, it doesn't matter if the wrinkle paint is opaque; it's just there to provide texture.  It is the top coat which is opaque, and that's what counts.

[RivNut]

15 minutes ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

Ed, I can say PBR was one of my favorites. Ive been a R&B hound since I was a boy. 

Could an agreed upon color appropriate of the air cleaner be color matched at an automotive paint shop?

Thank you,

Bob Burnopp

 

Yes, but you'll still have to use the  VHT wrinkle to get the desired finish.  As Chip states, if your paint is opaque rather than translucent, the color of the base won't make any difference.  

 

These cars are now 55 years old and as few as there are remaining, not too many folks are going to know what was OE.  However, it's our responsibility to get as close as possible for posterity.   

 

I sincerely doubt if anyone in the AACA has a clue as to what the true color should be.  The average Joe in the ROA probably can get you closer.

[Turbinator]

31 minutes ago, RivNut said:

Yes, but you'll still have to use the  VHT wrinkle to get the desired finish.  As Chip states, if your paint is opaque rather than translucent, the color of the base won't make any difference.  

 

These cars are now 55 years old and as few as there are remaining, not too many folks are going to know what was OE.  However, it's our responsibility to get as close as possible for posterity.   

 

I sincerely doubt if anyone in the AACA has a clue as to what the true color should be.  The average Joe in the ROA probably can get you closer.

Ed, I would bet a good auto paint man could paint match the color of the air cleaner  and get the right wrinkle finish. I would add the painter would need an example in hand of the color to be duplicated.

 

i agree, AACA would have no clue what the right color would be for the subject air cleaner. A recognized auto collector group like the ROA could publish and show what the air cleaner color looks like. You may not have a standard, but we would be closer to nailing down the color for the air cleaner Riv collectors are trying to land.

Red Riviera Bob

[Turbinator]

1 hour ago, Jim Cannon said:

 

Wrinkle red paint is NOT opaque.  You have to work with it to see what I mean.  The underlying color really influences what the final color looks like.

 

So perhaps instead of . cream base like Buick used, we should use an orange sherbet color.

 

 

Jim, the Chevrolet orange that is used to paint Chevy valve covers looks real close to what I ve seen Ed show. I’m happy to be wrong on the color; however, I am trying to get a one step color application.

[KongaMan]

Upon further investigation, it looks like it's possible to get a wrinkle finish with standard spray enamel.  There are lots of "recipes" for doing this (use your google-fu for details), but the gist of it is that it depends on the top and bottom of the paint layer drying at different rates.  Heat seems to be a common ingredient: a heavy coat of paint, then put it in the oven for 20-30 minutes. Some folks call for spraying a layer of thinner (or lacquer), then painting over it; others call for laying down the color coat first, then spraying thinner on top of that.  It's also been suggested that you can use commercially available wrinkle paint (e.g. VHT), then immediately spray it with the color coat. All seem to agree that whatever you do, you don't let the paint dry between coats, and you hit it with the heat while it's still wet.

 

If you don't want to stink up the kitchen (which might seem to be a real risk), you should be able to make an oven of sorts with a cardboard box and a heat lamp or two (think Suzy Homemaker).

 

As a practical matter, a production process would be as simple as they could make it.  Baking the parts in an oven would be bad enough; would they use a two-coat process if they didn't have to?  The key may be that they used a paint which isn't readily available today, as the older wrinkle paints supposedly incorporated tung oil to get the different drying rates across the paint layer.

[Turbinator]

The Devil is in the detail:

Outstanding research on the paint topic. RivNut made an observation the finish on the air cleaner was a satin, matte, or flat finish. The finish on my air cleaner had a gloss. I believe the gloss on my air cleaner was the from the VHT Red Wrinkle paint I applied.

[Turbinator]

Gents, I saw in the Riview issue dated January/February 2018 Steve Read’s “Gone! But not Forgotten” article. The story and photographs, of course, are top shelf. The color Blue is my favorite color and the automobile made me green with envy.

i partcularly enjoyed viewing the air cleaner color on Steve’s 63. The color of my air cleaner is closer to Steve’s air cleaner lid color than the more orange red I’ve seen.  Additionally, my finish is a gloss as opposed to satin or matte seen on the orange red or cleaners. I’m delighted with either color on the air cleaner. I’ve stripped and painted my air cleaner twice in an effort to get the more orange red color. I’ve not achieved my desired color, but I’m done-stick a fork in me.

[RivNut]

Here you go!

 

 

Edited March 25, 2018 by RivNut (see edit history)

[Turbinator]

It is true people are finished and chicken gets done?

R3d Riviera Bob

[RivNut]

In the classroom, I always questioned students as to the last time they crossed the "done" line.  Or when they'd respond, "I'm done"  I'd ask them if "I were stick a fork in them would it come out clean."  Total confusion on their part..