Hubert_25-25

1925 Buick Standard water pump shaft and impellor

Recommended Posts

Hubert_25-25   I looked in a at least 150 cans today I found half of what you need  54 tooth fiber gear  cool  I have never looked in all the Coffey cans till today . the guy that worked on my car saved every old part ,old bearing , bushing ,old  valve guides , and labeled every part and stated installed new one as I looked in all the cans wow . 

20180218_185350[1].jpg

20180218_191845[1].jpg

20180218_191833[1].jpg

Edited by sligermachine
spelling . (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don, 

       I have a new gear coming.   

Leif, 

      Thanks for the added year information to help with the search.      Hugh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hue do u have a old one . does anyone have a drawing of the steel gear  and or the fiber gear ??  I would like to draw it and maybe make a few for spares for some one some day --kyle   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kyle, 

   -  I can send you a file that Leif sent me regarding the timing gear dimensions, but it is not a single drawing, rather several photos with dimensions shown on them.  -  You have a 54 and a 60 tooth timing gear in your hands, and they are the 2 sizes for 1925-28 Master and Standard.  

- I can send you an 18 tooth water pump/generator gear, but I am finding that they are not as rare as the fiber gears. 

- Bobs sells a fiber gear, but it does not have a steel hub like is used originally.  The Standard gear has no steel hub, just a key slot.  The Master hub has a separate steel piece with a keyslot but no attachment mechanism for the steel hub piece.

I wonder how good these are being fiber with just a keyway in it?  Does anyone have any experience with them?  Buick did not build them this way.  

- Bob's shows the early 6 cylinder and 1925 -1928 Master gears as "out of stock".  Not sure when or if he plans to make more.

-  I understand that the fiber gear is for noise purposes, and the other option is Bronze.  

Hugh

 

Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A old no good gear is a easy way to test a milling machine set up . but normally runes a gear  during the set up . a gear shaped like this I would normally rune at least 6 or 8 gears before it turned out right . A cnc looped program making gears is a fast way to make a gear but expensive to set up .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kyle,

      You always have such good insight into what a machinist needs.  I have at least 1 junk 54 tooth gear.  This is the one that was in my motor.  Someone damaged it, I can only assume in the process of removing the water pump.  A good gear other than the section of broken teeth.

5a8c47c2acd8e_engine-Brokengear.thumb.JPG.f7734f80600c5ec223d7ee7ed5d13113.JPG

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At an auction that a 1924-45 was NOT sold (I was the only bidder at $21,000) there was a timing gear made from aluminum.  It was  my friend here in Chambersburg with a project 1924-45 who bought it. He also bought a trailer load of spare parts as well as a complete engine with radiator on a stand. I remember pointing out the gear and having him bid on it. The auctioneer stopped the auction to read us out for being in collusion on parts!

DSCF1837.thumb.JPG.6e41984797818041912b349bfbb6e512.JPG 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, dibarlaw said:

The auctioneer stopped the auction to read us out for being in collusion on parts!

You mean they Kicked  you out ??  wow what a nice car!!   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, dibarlaw said:

At an auction that a 1924-45 was NOT sold (I was the only bidder at $21,000) there was a timing gear made from aluminum.  It was  my friend here in Chambersburg with a project 1924-45 who bought it. He also bought a trailer load of spare parts as well as a complete engine with radiator on a stand. I remember pointing out the gear and having him bid on it. The auctioneer stopped the auction to read us out for being in collusion on parts!

DSCF1837.thumb.JPG.6e41984797818041912b349bfbb6e512.JPG 

My understanding is that the 4 clynder engines had a aluminum gear fitted this is what I have on my car so you may be able to find one you will never break it tony

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tony, 

     Thanks for the response and the good idea for a replacement gear.  I once worked on a friends Mustang 2 and it had a metal timing gear hub with a nylon type material gear around the outside.  The gear shattered into many pieces and we had to clean it all out of the oil pan.  The replacement timing gear was aluminum.  I never heard the car run previously, but it did have an interesting whir after it was back running.  I always liked the sound of the blower on the Mad Max Holden model that Mel Gibson drives.  I  would think an aluminum gear is better than a fiber gear without a steel hub.  Bronze is always nice but certainly a more expensive option.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In another water pump related question, for those with the long water pump shaft and 2 piece water pump housing (1925 and earlier).

 

Between the 2 water pump housing sections...paper gasket?  Silicone sealer?  Paper gasket and silicone sealer? 

 

What should I use?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don, 

    I'm old school, and I make paper gaskets (thin - 1/64 paper for waterpumps, but not critical if all you have is something thicker).  Then I smear the paper with RTV gasket sealer.  Could also use Permatex #2 non hardening.  There is some newer stuff out there.  "Right Stuff" is squeeze and go.  On my Lexus, no paper and just lay down a bead and bolt it together.  That's factory too.  I had a shop recently look at my Jaguar engine, and he used what I assume is black silicone and no gasket on the valve cover.  It took over an hour to get one valve cover off.  It didn't leak, but I won't go back to him.     Hugh 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎2‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 1:24 PM, Hubert_25-25 said:

Don, 

    I'm old school, and I make paper gaskets (thin - 1/64 paper for waterpumps, but not critical if all you have is something thicker).  Then I smear the paper with RTV gasket sealer.  Could also use Permatex #2 non hardening.  There is some newer stuff out there.  "Right Stuff" is squeeze and go.  On my Lexus, no paper and just lay down a bead and bolt it together.  That's factory too.  I had a shop recently look at my Jaguar engine, and he used what I assume is black silicone and no gasket on the valve cover.  It took over an hour to get one valve cover off.  It didn't leak, but I won't go back to him.     Hugh 

 

In my opinion, the best stuff to use is Permatex Ultra Grey. That is what GM was using when I worked for them and it is about the only thing that I personally use.  I agree with a thin paper gasket and some of the Ultra Grey on both sides to fill in any gaps.

 

RTV Silicone Sealant,3.5 oz Tube,Gray

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/7/2018 at 10:05 AM, Hubert_25-25 said:

My 1925 Buick Standard water pump shaft needs to be replaced, and my impellor is borderline acceptable, but could use to be replaced as well.  I have drawn both of these for fabrication. 

Along the picture of the shaft

1)  I have included the ID dimensions of the existing bushings.  Do these look acceptable or "pretty sloppy" and need to be replaced.

2) I have included the ID dimensions of the gear and the Starter Generator drive hub.  They were very difficult to remove.  Any thoughts on the interference fit?

3) I was unsure of the stainless grade to specify

4) I was unsure of the finish to specify (smooth is such a relative term)

5) notice the minor shaft size difference between the impellor area and the SG drive hub ID.  I don't know if water caused the shaft to swell under the impellor??

 

 

5a88ff3344c17_Waterpumpshaftdimensions1925BuickStandardrev1.thumb.JPG.122b34cc4d7fd194f705462e6e46cf66.JPG

 

 

If I might make a couple of observations:

- It seems peculiar that the long shaft would be designed to have a slight taper or a such a small step (.753" to .749").

- Parts were generally designed using common dimensions (½" rather than .491" or .506", etc.).

 

Taken together one might consider the possibility that the long shaft is .750" and the larger diameter section is 1.125"; any deviations are due to sloppy machining and/or age.

 

And a suggestion: It isn't necessary to duplicate this part exactly.  This shaft is part of a system (the shaft and the bushings); the goal is to get the whole thing squared away.  And yes, it is quite possible that your efforts will (simply by being attentive) give you something that is better than new.  As such, I'd suggest the if the shaft OD is .750", the bushing ID should be .751" - .7515".  Similarly, if the OD of a shaft section is 1.125", the ID of the surrounding bushing should be 1.1265" - 1.127".

 

I have no idea if it's feasible to replace the bushings, but if it is, one might strongly consider pressing in new ones of the proper dimensions.  If the dimensions you give for the "worn in" bushings (e.g. .764" ID) are what you have now, those are excessively worn and sloppy.  It would be bad practice to leave those as is unless there is no reasonable option to replace them.  In that case, you might consider turning the shaft a bit oversize to fit the bushings (.763" and 1.125", respectively).  Even at that, there's no assurance that the old bushings are round.

 

Dimensions for an interference fit for the drive hub should be readily available.  Since the drive hub ID is .749", that correlates nicely with a reasonable .001" interference fit on a .750" shaft. However, there isn't any reason for an interference fit between those parts; a slip fit and the taper pin should hold the drive hub in place.  So, perhaps the end of the shaft would be turned slightly smaller.

 

Similarly, if the gear hub is held in place by a key and threaded bolt, it seems unusual to have it be a press fit as well.  Again, one might think a slip fit would be adequate.  If the gear hub ID is .860", that might lead you to a shaft OD of ~.859".  If you want to get these exact, you might consider reaming both the drive hub and gear hub to known dimensions that are perfectly round (or rebushing both and reaming), then turning the shaft ends to the corresponding diameter (but be careful that the drive hub end isn't too big to slip though the bushings, or you'll have to rethink the whole long part of the shaft and its bushings).

 

I guess the bottom line is this: it is likely possible to design and fabricate this assembly to higher standards and tighter tolerances than the original.  The decision might come down to whether one should make the "adjustments" on the shaft (e.g. changing the OD at crucial points), the bushings (e.g. changing the ID), or both.  Convention would be to hold the shaft at a "standard" diameter (e.g. .750") and set the ID of mating parts according to purpose (e.g. .751/2" for a slip fit or bushing; .749" for an interference fit, etc.).  Perhaps there are other factors in this particular application that make that approach untenable.  Specifically, would it be reasonable to require that the impeller or a hub be reamed to accommodate this "standard" shaft?  If you enlarge the ID of the impeller or hub to fit the new shaft, you may have also rendered those parts unsuitable for use on a different shaft.  Is that a trade-off you're willing to make?  If it isn't, maybe you do have to deviate from the "standard" so that your new shaft will be compatible with standard parts and other engines.

Edited by KongaMan (see edit history)
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...