English Rolls Royce

[alsancle]

We have a topic on the American Ghost, PI and U.S. delivery PII.   Here is a thread for non U.S. cars.    I'll start with one owned by a friend.   It is a PIII V12 originally bodied by Franay and then rebodied by Freestone & Webb.    I really like the lines on this car and  think one of the best looking bodies on a PIII.

[motoringicons]

I'll start.

Although I personally prefer the looks of the Springfield-built RRs (ownership prejudice, you know!), there are at least a few(!) good looking Derby-Built  (British) cars.

Here is one of my favorites that I have known for awhile.

 

This is car 21UF, a 1927 Phantom I torpedo tourer with coachwork by Barker. This car was a Rolls Royce trials car and fitted by the factory with a sedan body for trials in the Riviera. It was later sent back to Barker where it received its current body prior to be sold again by Rolls Royce in about 1929-30. The car remained in England until 1945 when it was brought to the US by a member of the US Military. The last two owners have been good friends of mine and I will likely be placing this car on  the market again.  It is a really sporty car with its extremely narrow coachwork, polished wing fenders and a top that completely disappears when folded. A true four passenger tourer.

[JV Puleo]

This car is well known today though I confess to having forgotten the chassis number is but it may be 25EX. It was one of the experimental Phantom IIs. The photo was taken in New York around 1948 by the late Alden Handy. I think it may have different fenders now.

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[alsancle]

12 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

This car is well known today though I confess to having forgotten the chassis number is but it may be 25EX. It was one of the experimental Phantom IIs. The photo was taken in New York around 1948 by the late Alden Handy. I think it may have different fenders now.

 

It is the first LHD PII for the American Market, correct?  I think Frank Cooke in Mass owned it for a long time.  It was sold at auction not too long ago.

[alsancle]

12 hours ago, motoringicons said:

I'll start.

Although I personally prefer the looks of the Springfield-built RRs (ownership prejudice, you know!), there are at least a few(!) good looking Derby-Built  (British) cars.

Here is one of my favorites that I have known for awhile.

 

 

I would prefer the American cars if only because of the LHD.  But, I think there are some fantastic coachbuilt English bodies, especially on the Continental chassis.

[JV Puleo]

Oddly enough, I generally prefer the American bodies on these later cars but am indifferent to whether it is LH or RH drive. Were I in a position to buy any RR it would be (1st) A pre-WWI London-Edinburgh tourer or (2nd) a pre-1925 American Ghost.

[K8096]

I heard there was only one LHD Phantom III built and it was a disaster.   Think of how complicated a P III is to begin with, and then add in a complicated mechanism to move the gear shift to the center.  I don't know if it exists or not.   

[alsancle]

21 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Oddly enough, I generally prefer the American bodies on these later cars but am indifferent to whether it is LH or RH drive. Were I in a position to buy any RR it would be (1st) A pre-WWI London-Edinburgh tourer or (2nd) a pre-1925 American Ghost.

 

Why the pre 25 Ghost Joe?

 

I have a friend who has 1/2 RHD and 1/2 LHD cars.  If you quiz him he can't remember which is which.  He just doesn't care or pay attention.  For me,  if a car was available both ways,  then I want the LHD.  If it was only delivered RHD (PIII, Bugatti, etc) then RHD is fine with me.

[alsancle]

14 hours ago, K8096 said:

I heard there was only one LHD Phantom III built and it was a disaster.   Think of how complicated a P III is to begin with, and then add in a complicated mechanism to move the gear shift to the center.  I don't know if it exists or not.   

 

Rolls and Bentley are the only ones I can think of that go to the right side with the shifter on a RHD car.  Everybody left it in the middle which made  it much easier to build a LHD model for the American and LHD European markets.

[JV Puleo]

38 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Why the pre 25 Ghost Joe?

 

I have a friend who has 1/2 RHD and 1/2 LHD cars.  If you quiz him he can't remember which is which.  He just doesn't care or pay attention.  For me,  if a car was available both ways,  then I want the LHD.  If it was only delivered RHD (PIII, Bugatti, etc) then RHD is fine with me.

 

I prefer the big (23") wheels without front brakes and the side shifter... all of which were changed to make the car more "American". Driving on the right has never been a problem to me... in fact, I'm off to the UK next week and have to get used to it again. My brass car is RHD with an outside shifter, which was normal in 1910.

[West Peterson]

1931 PII Continental saloon by Barker (51GX). Built for Brussels Auto Show, December 1931.  I'd like to reel it back in.

[alsancle]

21 hours ago, West Peterson said:

I'd like to reel it back in.

 

Yours at one time West?   I try not to look back

[alsancle]

Joe,  are these the wheels you are talking about?

 

[West Peterson]

42 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Yours at one time West?   I try not to look back

A long time ago it was ours. I love sport sedans, and what could be better than one being on a PII Continental chassis?

[alsancle]

We should have a contest to find an ugly PII Continental.

[West Peterson]

If it's found, it was probably done in Asia or the Middle East.

 

[alsancle]

It will be somebody who ordered a "high hat" like a Rollson.

[JV Puleo]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

Joe,  are these the wheels you are talking about?

 

 

I'd say so, though I don't believe plated wheels are appropriate for a Ghost that early and it was well before the stainless wheels were offered. It is a little difficult to tell from a photograph because the later, 21-in wheels with balloon tires had just about (if not exactly) the the same outside diameter. My taste runs to the very reserved... I don't generally like much plating and think that car would look better with painted wheels. The cars without front brakes are also lighter steering and, to my mind, more pleasant to drive. Properly adjusted, the Ghost 2-wheel brakes are easily adequate---at least I never remember having anything like a "it won't stop" sort of emergency. Keep in mind though, I never owned one. My experience is based on test driving other people's cars.

 

That looks like a slant windshield Permanent Salamanca. I spent a lot of time with S111BG, the car used in  the Robert Redford "The Great Gatsby" movie. As far as I know, it is in the UK now as I was contacted by an attorney in London who wanted me to confirm that it was the movie car... and "demanded" copies of my invoices for working on it. Needless to say, I dropped the correspondence at that point. I don't have copies of invoices for work I did 35 or 40 years ago and don't respond well to demands.

[alsancle]

On 2/3/2018 at 12:28 PM, JV Puleo said:

That looks like a slant windshield Permanent Salamanca. I spent a lot of time with S111BG, the car used in  the Robert Redford "The Great Gatsby" movie. As far as I know, it is in the UK now as I was contacted by an attorney in London who wanted me to confirm that it was the movie car... and "demanded" copies of my invoices for working on it. Needless to say, I dropped the correspondence at that point. I don't have copies of invoices for work I did 35 or 40 years ago and don't respond well to demands.

 

"demanded" is funny.  Maybe in England mechanics are required to keep records for 40 years.

[JV Puleo]

Maybe... but I doubt it. Even if I did keep them, it would have been a lot more polite to simply ask if I could copy them. Actually, my shop was flooded just before I closed it and long after S111BG had moved on. All of my records were reduced to a mass of sodden pulp.

 

jp

[alsancle]

This car has been for sale on and off for a long time.  It is very attractive, but the asking price is huge.  I think it is known as the "Barbara Hutton" car.

I get the PI vs PII vs Continental factors in value.  And understand, history, authenticity, etc.  But I see wide swings in the values for some of these car that I can't explain.   What it is about this one that would make worth asking 7 figures while something that might be equally as attractive goes for 1/3 the price?

 

[West Peterson]

Maybe because of the incorrect radiator mascot and that the car was in all-but-totaled condition at one time. Then, the weird color combination the restorer chose to use, other than the known dark color that it was when new.

 

[alsancle]

I'm shocked you don't like the color!   I have never been able to find a period picture of it.  Do you have one?

 

[alsancle]

45 minutes ago, West Peterson said:

Maybe because of the incorrect radiator mascot and that the car was in all-but-totaled condition at one time.

 

Nothing that won't buff out.

 

[edinmass]

Some of that good English Gin and a PIII dont mix!

[West Peterson]

Supposedly it's a PII. I thought PIII at first, too, but it's being advertised as a PII, and it does have a Six not a Twelv.

 

[alsancle]

It is a PII.  The PII hood looks longer than the PIII.  I don't now if that is actually true, but it seems that way.

[DavidAU]

It is a PII Continental and I believe it may be chassis #  3-MW which has a Thrupp and Mayberly body and was sold on 0-4-33 to Princess Alexis Mdivani of Paris, France.

 

If it is this car,  the owner ordered it built with a 4 inch longer hood and louvers sloped at 13.5 degrees.  Also ordered with an aluminium dash which was fitted with every gauge avalible at that time. i.e Tapley meter, altimeter, tachometer,  temperature gauge etc.  This would account for its collectability and price.

   

[West Peterson]

Not in my book. All Rolls-Royce are custom. The ones that have a better design are worth more. Very little to do with a little-known past owner, or an aluminum dashboard. As AJ said, it's overpriced, and that's why it's not selling.

[alsancle]

hey West!  I didn't say it was overpriced,  although I don't think it has sold so it probably is.  Btw,  I think it was "Prince" Alexis, who was married to Barbara Hutton at one time.   I like it a lot and have it on my list of 25 or so cars that could win Pebble or at least winners circle with the right owner/restoration shop/ restoration.  Although the fact that the Prince died in the car may actually be a negative.   The lengthened hood does explain why it looks good.

 

Edited February 6, 2018 by alsancle (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Here is the story on the crash.  Ouch.

 

http://theesotericcuriosa.blogspot.com/2014/12/auto-crash-fatal-to-prince-mdivani.html

[alsancle]

This is a PIII, that Don Williams showed at Pebble last year.   I know West is going to hate it but I liked it.   But I get the argument that without the copper it would be a better presentation.

 

 

[West Peterson]

Like the Continental drophead, beautiful design, just serious flaws in presentation.

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

This is a PIII, that Don Williams showed at Pebble last year.   I know West is going to hate it but I liked it.   But I get the argument that without the copper it would be a better presentation.

 

 

 

I looked it over for twenty minutes. I can honestly say it was not like any thing I have ever seen before. It was VERY well done. Definitely not my taste. 

[alsancle]

I'm conflicted for obvious reasons.  On one hand,  if there was no copper, then you would have a very attractive one off bodied town car on a PIII chassis.   With the copper,  you have something that screams for attention, but arguably in a bad way.

[edinmass]

I want to know how and why they thought up the copper treatment. Talk about coming up with something different. Has it been done before? In the era? Talk about a BIG leap of faith. It was just too much for me, but it was VERY well done. And I admit, I kind of like it. In a purple haze kind of mood/thought.

[alsancle]

I'll try to find the history on the car.  I thought the copper was an original treatment.    Here is a more sedate version, although not as swoopy.

 

https://www.rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/AZ14/Arizona/lots/r177-1937-rolls-royce-phantom-iii-sedanca-de-ville-by-park-ward/182186

[nzcarnerd]

This PIII lives near Christchurch, NZ. I believe the owner did a nut and bolt restoration himself.    https://www.carjam.co.nz/car/?plate=fkj123

 

There is another one also in the same area which I know has a Thrupp and Maberly body and might be 3AZ56.

[alsancle]

Nice.  I think the PIII is a tough car to do at home because of its complexity.  Seem like the hood (or bonnet) is a little longer than standard?

[8E45E]

On ‎2018‎-‎02‎-‎06 at 5:41 PM, edinmass said:

 

I looked it over for twenty minutes. I can honestly say it was not like any thing I have ever seen before. It was VERY well done. Definitely not my taste. 

I would like to see it parked beside this one!!

 

Craig