philipj

Overdrive Information 38 Buick...

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Matt....if the oil leak problem went away and the solenoid was insulated from heat....then  would you have a reliable unit ?

 

I'm interested in your experience because we have a recently installed BW overdrive in our 1937 Special.....and I'd like to be able to anticipate any problems that may be coming down the road

 

Jack Worstell

 

 

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4 hours ago, Jack Worstell said:

Matt....if the oil leak problem went away and the solenoid was insulated from heat....then  would you have a reliable unit ?

 

I'm interested in your experience because we have a recently installed BW overdrive in our 1937 Special.....and I'd like to be able to anticipate any problems that may be coming down the road

 

Jack Worstell

 

 

 

To be honest, the only explanation anyone has ever offered, including Lloyd, is that I just got a bum unit. Some of my early problems were related to heat soak on the solenoid and the leaking, but there are internal issues that Lloyd was never able to solve. And as I said, once you have a particular overdrive installed, you apparently can't swap it out for another one--you're stuck with it. That's because Lloyd's units were custom fitted and welded into place. He rebuilt it three times and it still leaks like a sieve and the overdrive only engages about 60% of the time. When it fails to engage, I have to pull over and come to a complete stop, take it out of Free-Wheeling, then drive for a while while it cools off and then try again in a few miles (and if it fails again, pull over and start over once again). Every time I use it, I know it's a gamble and sooner or later it will fail completely and leave me with an immobile hunk of Cadillac that needs unobtainium parts and cubic dollars to repair. I don't use the overdrive and as a result, I drive the car far, far less than I used to and want to (which should tell you just how much the overdrive changes the car's personality). I'll go around town where I don't need it, but no more long road trips with it or cruising on 45-55 MPH back roads. Just around town now. It makes me bitter.

 

Keeping the solenoid cool (I even considered welding cooling fins on mine and making an air scoop to ram cool air over it as I drove) will help. Keep it topped up with fluid at all times, that will help a lot. But there are some overdrives that are just inherently bad and the only explanation I ever got was that there was just something defective about mine and it was probably defective even when it was new and likely gave the original Ford (or whatever) dealer fits. I don't believe mine can be made reliable. I've eliminated the electrical parts, including the solenoid, and that should help, but I still don't trust it one bit and it's cumbersome to use now. Others have had better experiences with their Lloyd Young units, so I know it is just my particular gearbox, but that doesn't make me wish I had gone with Gear Vendors any less and it doesn't change my advice--there's a chance someone else's B-W unit could be borked like mine and when presented with the chance to skip it for something else more reliable, I would take it.

 

Keeping the fluid full is paramount since there's so little in there and using the right stuff is equally important. I'll have to check and see what I use, but it's available from NAPA and is the stuff Lloyd recommended.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

Edited by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

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I wonder.

If you fill the unit full and then it gets hot when driving, the oil will expand and come out somewhere. Could that be a reason for your leaking?

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1 hour ago, DonMicheletti said:

I wonder.

If you fill the unit full and then it gets hot when driving, the oil will expand and come out somewhere. Could that be a reason for your leaking?

 

No, it's all on the floor. I can see it. I actually jack the car up as high as I can on the right side so that when I fill it, it's on an angle and holds a bit more fluid. On an average weekend tour, I'll lose perhaps half of it as the oil heats up and leaks out from the front and rear seals. Lloyd kept putting new seals in and they keep not sealing. He thinks there's a burr somewhere in there that keeps them from fully seating, but he couldn't find it and correct it. Perhaps a casting defect.

 

Like I said, I'll probably just put a filler tube on it that's someplace convenient and fill it up every time I stop for gas.

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I totally agree that an OD changes one from a town only ride to a go anywhere cruiser. My 37 came with 4.44 rear gearing and when I had to be out on the highway I was watching the rear view mirror more than looking out the windshield and hoping some nut closing in on my rear bumper wasn't texting or on an Iphone. With the OD and 4.11 gearing we have made a lap of America and think nothing of loading up for a thousand mile trip. My next change will be to a PCV system on the straight 8 as breathing in particle laden air makes the oil black in a thousand miles.

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On 2/02/2018 at 6:08 PM, Bloo said:

Either one of these, as I understand it, will break if you leave it engaged in reverse

Um, not the '30s ones. It just won't go backwards because of the freewheeling unit on the back. Disengaging the o/d actually moves a locking system back to lock up the freewheel unit. I have a 1939 Studebaker with a BW o/d in it. This year did not have the governor, just the kickdown.

 

The freewheeling unit consists of a multi-sided inner section (a set of ramps) with a set of rollers in a cage on the outside, inside a larger bell shaped part. When the engine is driving, the rollers roll up the tapers and lock in the inside of the bell shaped piece connected to or that is the rear pinion. When the engine slows and the drive shaft is driving it, the rollers roll down and release the bell, so the engine idles while the drive shaft continues at road speed. Clearly, to go backwards this must be locked.

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)
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I am surprised your o/d is heating up. Mine was stuffed and I couldn't touch it after a run. After a full overhaul, it runs cool enough to keep my hand on at speed.

 

The problem I had was mainly the planetary gears. The pins they run on were worn barrel shaped and the needle bearings were all barrel shaped with a tendency to be square rather than round. And of course I could not buy individual needles, I had to replace them with full complement caged needle bearings. The needles are about an eighth of an inch shorter so the gears will start to rock earlier in their wear life. In addition, there was a big bronze piece (I can't remember what it was, something to do with the sun gear I think) that was worn badly. Everything was really badly worn and filthy when I bit the bullet and got into it. The main reason I took it apart was that something in the freewheeling unit fell off and it would not work. A bolt in the rear of the mainshaft had come undone. I am afraid this is all a bit vague: it is 25 years since I was in there.

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Matt, we have been lucky with ours as it doesn't leak at all. I do check it from time to time but it hasn't needed any between complete drains. I drain it and put new in it each year along with the trans and the rear axle. I just take a day and do everything under the car. I like the Gear Vendors OD also and have one in a 1978 Ford F150 but it does not drop the rpms as much as the BW does. 

 

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I have a 1941 Studebaker - R10 Borg Warner Overdrive set up in my torque tube on my 1935 Chevy. Driving on the highway with 4:11 gears and a 83 year old 207 engine was not an option. I use it only after 3rd gear and it reduces my rpm's by 30%. I use a switch on my clutch pedal to disengage the o/d's electric so I cannot back up in overdrive. 

It took quite some time to engineer and install the unit myself in a spare rear end and torque tube. Not for the weak hearted but highly recommended. Anyone with questions or wanting to tackle this themselves, I would share advise/knowledge from my experience.

I am still in search of a spare o/d housing R10B-1G or R10B-1R if anyone knows of one. 

image.jpeg

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Wisebri24...is your unit a R10B 1G   or  r10B1R       or R10X XX     ??

 

For a spare housing...Jim Nelson might be able to give you a lead.............

 

Jack Worstell         jlwmaster@aol.com

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Our BW overdrive with the newly manufactured 6 volt solenoid has been trouble free for over 4000 miles. No leaks or strange noises, never a problem engaging or staying in gear or disengaging. If I had not installed the BW overdrive in our car I would have sold it. As it is now I think we will have this car for many years. I live where you pretty much have to use freeways from time to time and without the overdrive it was no fun to drive over 55 miles per hour.

 

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The latest Skinned Knuckles magazine has some excellent information on various overdrives.

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I have a '38' special with Lloyds BW O/D.   I love it.  Since Lloyd has passed,  the machinist who did the work for Lloyd is still doing the units. Glen has done several already.   He is charging $1875 for the modification.  You do frt. in / out.    Glen changed Lloyd's phone number in Hemings to his phone number.   You send him the third member with the torque tube attached and he modifies it and sends it back to you   If it needs new pinion bearings,  he gets them and replaces them.  BTW, The pinion bearings are still available.   They are unique Hyatt bearings up until I think the '1940'  special  when Buick changed the torque tube to a two piece configuration.  I do not know the newer bearings size but the part number changed.   Bob's Automobilia has them.   Olcar Bearings co.  has them also.   George (at Olcar) will send them to you with the bill.  Send him a check.   Great guy.   I think Lloyd used him as needed.  Being a bearing guy  (had my own shop for 18 years) I would like to see the bearings in the 40 and later pinion shaft.   General Motors made their own bearing to fit what they needed.   The back roller bearing had a larger outer race so it would allow you to remove the drive train assembly out the back.   See your Service Manual on how to remove it.    I changed the solenoid over to the new units available from  (brain fade)  but now I use Lloyds as a spare when I take trips.   Ya, I had one dump and had to drive back in regular 3 'd gear.   Boy that was enlightening.  So a  spare is always in the trunk on trips.   I opened one from Lloyds and all there is, is a small coil and contact point that can get yucky and stop working.  The new units are the only way.    Rebuilding Lloyds O/D units require you to only change the guts for a major rebuild.  The case with the flanges stay the same.  That part is custom.   As Lloyd told me, any place that can get the parts, can rebuild the O/D.    Yes, I had a failure.   I was doing a pre-trip check before I hit the road.  Found a bearing that was slowly trashing.   I took it to Lloyds and he rebuilt it right then.  Long story - like new now.   Lloyds family (?) will be providing parts for some time to come to use up what Lloyd had stashed away, (a bunch),   So with Glen continuing the "Lloyd's style"  O/D,  we are in good shape.  I cruise 65 /70, 2350 - 2400 rpm.

 

 

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BTW,  Lloyd just filled the OD's with rear end gear oil.   You remove both side mounted plugs on the pax side of the unit.  The upper plug has a vent tube attached to it and was hung over the unit to the drivers side.  Remove that unit and the lower plug.   You must fill thru the upper plug and look for the oil to start coming out the lower plug hole.  Then you replace both plugs and the vent.  Lloyd said if you did not use that sequence, you did not get lubrication to a point higher than the lower plug and things would break.   TIbit,  the output shaft bearing came in two versions.  Single bearing and dual bearing.   You could not tell until you opened it up.  My failure caused questions as my failure was the inner bearing.   His experience was that the outer shaft bearing was the one that failed, not the inner one.    This was back  in August  '17'.

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I have two coupes., Special's   '37' and '38'.   My '38' has Lloyds O/D.   My '37' has the third member swap.   I used the write up from about 10 years ago.   My '37' is a prestine  restore.   Because I promised the guy I bought it from  that I would not put O/D in.  That would give you an O/D control under the dash and thus not look like it was a new "37' coupe.   So I shopped for a low rear ratio.   The '54' dynaflo rear is 3.41  That would work reasonable since the '38' had a 3.11 final with the O/D working.   You modify the third member with some machining to move the axel centerline rearward 1/4".   Then you cut off about 12" of the '54' torque tube.   You then cut off the rear part of the "37' torque tube and marry the drive shaft and torque tube.  Easy to say but harder to do.   I now have a '37' coupe with a 3.41 rear ratio.   Good for 60 /65 mph with rpm's of about 2700.   Rpm faster than my '38' but you would have to do some serious looking to see what I did.   I now drive it as a normal 3 speed.  This was a bit more expensive a change.  It cost me about $1000.00 more in expenses over the O/D.     Call it $2k for the o/d  and $3k to $3500 for the rear end swap.  Throw in $500 for incidentals, freight etc.   BUT I now have two very nice road cruising cars .   The older ladies love the coupes.   

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Great reading all. I engineered my od into my torque tube myself while recovering from several shoulder surgeries. Herm the od guy cracked my case. Not 100% it was his fault but he chose to send the unit back to me in pieces instead od welding the crack. I did finally get her up and running. Now I won’t live without it. 

So I need a case bearing the numbers:

R10B-1G

or

R10B-1R

thx for reading,

Joe

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I would check with Glen who is now using Lloyds old stock.   I’m not sure if he is up on the models and p/n according.  If your old case has numbers, I think he might be able the go thru lloyds stock.   Lloyd had a small barn full of O/D’s.   Lloyd would put the word out and scrounge for them.   I think that was as much fun as rebuilding them.  Here is a pix of seven adapters to get finished machining.   Lloyd is the guy on the far left.  Only his shows.

469FDD95-FF33-4D1D-B28E-8528DC1ABDB3.jpeg

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Have you considered repairing yours?   Unless its trashed, we have some very good aluminun welders.  Same for remachining to get like new.  

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I tried the 614-837-7832 number. The recording said the new number is unknown.

I do have the od up and running. I fear a breakdown and want a spare on hand.

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Lloyds phone was disconnected for obvious reasons.  Glen’s phone number is.     614-571-4908.   Glen resonds to this.  I’ve talked to him and he will be in Hemings  (under Lloyds old advertisment but new phone number). for 6 mo.  to see how much action he gets.   I’m not sure how much access he will be allowed but it all depends on business.   I hope that whoever is controling Lloyd’s inventory is staying with it.    My opinion only :  if I was in position and enough business came along, I would offer to buy Lloyds inventory and try to be good supplier of Lloyds O/D.   I like Lloyds electrical system as I’m a firm  beliver in. KISS.    I sent him a simplified electrical drawing.   Just a second look see, sometimes finds easier ways to do a task.    Plus,  most of the electrical items are OTC so easy to get.  The only item I don’t have a part number and vendor is the micro switch.   That will come.  

      Glen (I don’t have his last name) resides in Circleville OH.   ( 517  East Mound St.,  43113 ).    I’ve been to his shop twice.  It is well equipted for our needs.  PS,   Glen is the white haired guy in my pix.   I took a lot of pix when I had my  O/D  installed back in ‘14’.  

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35Joe,   What spares are you looking at?    My inventory for mine is:  solenoid on the O/D, ,  constant  (brain fade) use one on the fire wall.  The odds of a switch failing with the ones Lloyd used is very rare.   For trips,  all I would take is one of Lloyds older solenoids.  Cheaperbthan the New” solenoids. “.  That Is JIC  part.     Mechanically,  ?  Nothing else unless you wanted to buy one of Lloyds  O/D units with out the adapters.  JMHO,  I think that may be more than needed.   If I had a major  failure,  it migh be easier to send the O/D itself to Glens where he would fix it.   JMHO.  - - - 

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Thanks for the info. I have the micro switch part number and a picture. I think Glen may be more responsive to you rather than me. So if you don't mind calling him for me, I will dig out the pic and part number for you. I have Lloyds wiring in my 35 Chevy. I love it. My car has a 4:11 factory gear ratio and drive train. 

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