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Overdrive Information 38 Buick...


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I have two coupes., Special's   '37' and '38'.   My '38' has Lloyds O/D.   My '37' has the third member swap.   I used the write up from about 10 years ago.   My '37' is a prestine  restore.   Because I promised the guy I bought it from  that I would not put O/D in.  That would give you an O/D control under the dash and thus not look like it was a new "37' coupe.   So I shopped for a low rear ratio.   The '54' dynaflo rear is 3.41  That would work reasonable since the '38' had a 3.11 final with the O/D working.   You modify the third member with some machining to move the axel centerline rearward 1/4".   Then you cut off about 12" of the '54' torque tube.   You then cut off the rear part of the "37' torque tube and marry the drive shaft and torque tube.  Easy to say but harder to do.   I now have a '37' coupe with a 3.41 rear ratio.   Good for 60 /65 mph with rpm's of about 2700.   Rpm faster than my '38' but you would have to do some serious looking to see what I did.   I now drive it as a normal 3 speed.  This was a bit more expensive a change.  It cost me about $1000.00 more in expenses over the O/D.     Call it $2k for the o/d  and $3k to $3500 for the rear end swap.  Throw in $500 for incidentals, freight etc.   BUT I now have two very nice road cruising cars .   The older ladies love the coupes.   

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Great reading all. I engineered my od into my torque tube myself while recovering from several shoulder surgeries. Herm the od guy cracked my case. Not 100% it was his fault but he chose to send the unit back to me in pieces instead od welding the crack. I did finally get her up and running. Now I won’t live without it. 

So I need a case bearing the numbers:

R10B-1G

or

R10B-1R

thx for reading,

Joe

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I would check with Glen who is now using Lloyds old stock.   I’m not sure if he is up on the models and p/n according.  If your old case has numbers, I think he might be able the go thru lloyds stock.   Lloyd had a small barn full of O/D’s.   Lloyd would put the word out and scrounge for them.   I think that was as much fun as rebuilding them.  Here is a pix of seven adapters to get finished machining.   Lloyd is the guy on the far left.  Only his shows.

469FDD95-FF33-4D1D-B28E-8528DC1ABDB3.jpeg

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I tried the 614-837-7832 number. The recording said the new number is unknown.

I do have the od up and running. I fear a breakdown and want a spare on hand.

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Lloyds phone was disconnected for obvious reasons.  Glen’s phone number is.     614-571-4908.   Glen resonds to this.  I’ve talked to him and he will be in Hemings  (under Lloyds old advertisment but new phone number). for 6 mo.  to see how much action he gets.   I’m not sure how much access he will be allowed but it all depends on business.   I hope that whoever is controling Lloyd’s inventory is staying with it.    My opinion only :  if I was in position and enough business came along, I would offer to buy Lloyds inventory and try to be good supplier of Lloyds O/D.   I like Lloyds electrical system as I’m a firm  beliver in. KISS.    I sent him a simplified electrical drawing.   Just a second look see, sometimes finds easier ways to do a task.    Plus,  most of the electrical items are OTC so easy to get.  The only item I don’t have a part number and vendor is the micro switch.   That will come.  

      Glen (I don’t have his last name) resides in Circleville OH.   ( 517  East Mound St.,  43113 ).    I’ve been to his shop twice.  It is well equipted for our needs.  PS,   Glen is the white haired guy in my pix.   I took a lot of pix when I had my  O/D  installed back in ‘14’.  

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35Joe,   What spares are you looking at?    My inventory for mine is:  solenoid on the O/D, ,  constant  (brain fade) use one on the fire wall.  The odds of a switch failing with the ones Lloyd used is very rare.   For trips,  all I would take is one of Lloyds older solenoids.  Cheaperbthan the New” solenoids. “.  That Is JIC  part.     Mechanically,  ?  Nothing else unless you wanted to buy one of Lloyds  O/D units with out the adapters.  JMHO,  I think that may be more than needed.   If I had a major  failure,  it migh be easier to send the O/D itself to Glens where he would fix it.   JMHO.  - - - 

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Thanks for the info. I have the micro switch part number and a picture. I think Glen may be more responsive to you rather than me. So if you don't mind calling him for me, I will dig out the pic and part number for you. I have Lloyds wiring in my 35 Chevy. I love it. My car has a 4:11 factory gear ratio and drive train. 

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40 minutes ago, Jim Nelson said:

35Joe,   What spares are you looking at?    My inventory for mine is:  solenoid on the O/D, ,  constant  (brain fade) use one on the fire wall.  The odds of a switch failing with the ones Lloyd used is very rare.   For trips,  all I would take is one of Lloyds older solenoids.  Cheaperbthan the New” solenoids. “.  That Is JIC  part.     Mechanically,  ?  Nothing else unless you wanted to buy one of Lloyds  O/D units with out the adapters.  JMHO,  I think that may be more than needed.   If I had a major  failure,  it migh be easier to send the O/D itself to Glens where he would fix it.   JMHO.  - - - 

All I need is a outer case/housing.

R10B-1G

or

R10B-1R

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If that is the crack your talking about, its no problem to fix.   Down here there are several excellent welders.   I have one who is excellent both with aluminum and steel.   I’ve had him do welding on my airplanes when I was into flying.   You got to trust him with your life - so he is very good.  My back up guy is also a very good machinist.  I had him do the mod’s to utilize my ‘54’ third member in my ‘37’ rear.   I will find out if Glen will be able to rummage around Lloyds stock of O/D units to find one.    Where is this spot.  Get me a shot that is a bit back to figure just where this ‘boss’ is located,  function of this boss etc.

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That is the shift rail pin. It is welded up but the seal has a tiny drip. I just want an extra casing should it decide to go. My casing say:

R10B-1R on it.

R10B-1G should be the same case.

The third picture is what I need. Unfortunately the company that has this one wants more than I can pay in good conscience.

 

I did not have an option to change the rear or ring and pinion. My car is one year, one ratio only. To use a different year I would have to remove my entire mechanical brake system. Add a hydraulic set up. Master cylinder etc. 

My car has mods but still very 1935. 6volts and all. Jim you car is outrageous!!!

Thx., Joe

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

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Hi Ben,   Just for fun, here is my ‘37’. Modified to have a ‘54’ third member.  Nicely tucked away and hard to detect.    I also have a ‘38’  oprera coupe with Lloyds O/D  that is my traveling  car.  

F671321D-92AC-485C-80E7-F7B3142C62C4.jpeg

DDDCAD4B-9284-42DD-AD4D-434E61A66B0C.jpeg

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35Joe,   Its great that Glen had the case.   What I would do is to sleeve the questionable case.  Then that becomes your backup case.   Sleeving the original case is a no brainer for a good machine shop.  I hope Glen gets enough business to become the ‘over drive guy’.

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  • 2 weeks later...

you take it to your machanist.  A GOOD ONE. ,  Tell him you needed it sleeved to match the original bore.   Does the original have any slot’s or is it just a plain bore.  HAVE HIM MATCH IT EXACTLY.   Alignment and lengty.     If it is where the solenoid is inserted, have him match the finished bore so it fits just like the original..  The finished thickness of the sleeve needs to be at least .075 to .085.     The thickness should not over about 30% of the remaining material.  For instance,  exsting wall thickness is  0.375.    The wall thickness of the sleeve would be .085 .  to about  0.100  or approvimatly 30 %.   Not a hard and fast rule but the thickness goes up so does the sleeve thickness.   The sleeve needs to be mild steel.  Not brass or any soft material.   There should be several grooves in circumference about. ~ .005 deep.  Use Locktite RED to secure it permently.  Even when the case gets warm. The sleeve won’t move.  If you are uncomfortable with that. I would drill along side the joint between the sleeve and casting and insert a roll pin vertical thru 6he joint.  Just a small one that will keep things from moving.    Maybe over kill but your machinist can give you his opinion.    Its not a big deal, its just getting the bore aligned with the original alignment.   Give me a call if you have further questions.   727-251-6261   This repairs your original case and becomes a very good back-up part.   Obviously, this happens after you remove the original case so it can be the guide for repair.

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My response was for a bigger cracked area.   Your part is small and setting it up would be to plug the existing hole  (about 4x to 6x hole dia.) and redrill the hole again on the existing axis.   I would weld the plug in place and then redrill over the existing hole axis.    To do this I would do it this way.   I would set the part up on a mill with digital  points recorded.   Then move the table off to one side (without changing the digital points) and plug / weld the hole  closed.  Them move the table back to the original digital starting point and redrill  the hole exactly where it should be with the identical size drill.   Many good ways to repair parts not available today.   

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Thanks Jim,

I will take your advice to my local machine shop and have him do it your way unless he has a viable method that is similar to yours. Everyone has their way. If he doesn’t I will take it somewhere else.

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Yup,  many machinist’s are little premadonny’s  with the  “I know the best way so don’t confuse me with ‘new’ ways.”    Check around and get their OPINION’S  on what they would do.   Since these over drive  cases are not made anymore, I would take good care of any of them and repair as necessary..

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Hi Jack,   When I went to Lloyds and had him install the OD in my '38' drive train, he used rear end gear oil.   I don't remember him mention to use any thing else.   When you got  an Overdrive with your car back in the 30's, they were attached to the transmission and lubricated with the same lub.                      Bob Engle,    Lloyd said to remove the  governor plug that he has modified with a copper vent tube.  Then there is two pipe plugs forward of the Gov. plug.    Remove the lower forward plug to drain the OD unit.  When checking it for correct level,  you only remove the governor plug with vent and then remove the closer (higher )  pipe plug and fill the unit through the governor hole until it comes out the closer pipe plug hole.   Lloyd mentioned that some people just filled the upper pipe plug hole and it did not get oil to some of the gears.   So,  that is info from the lips of the GURU of Overdrives himself.  Here is a pix of the right side with the plugs and governor plug.

IMG_0033.jpg

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I have seen a variety of comments about the lubricant to use in a BW  overdrive

 

What the Warner factory manual says is this

     Do not use EP type

     Do not use Hypoid type

     40 Wt motor oil is OK

     50 Wt motor oil can be used for hard driving/higher temperature climates

     Straight mineral oil  SAE 80 is OK

     Straight mineral oil  SAE  90 is OK for hard driving/higher temperature climates

 

About venting and filling with oil:

 

We removed the plug Lloyd put in the governor opening and installed a governor....Lloyd's control set-up worked just

fine but we wanted the factory type control set-up....it's more of a semi-automatic operation. So we needed the governor.

 

This the left us with no vent.     So we bought a "street-T"......    3/8 NPT threads ....removed the upper 3/8"NPT pipe plug

and threaded the male leg of the tee into this opening.    This left two female 3/8' NPT connections on the tee to be used.

The female connection pointing horizontally we plugged  with a 3/8' NPT plug.     This is where we check oil level and add oil if necessary.

The 3/8" female connection pointing upward:     we screwed in a tubing adapter and inserted a piece of copper tubing

about 8" long....this is our new vent.

 

The point is well taken about making sure oil gets back into all of the recesses of the OD.

When we add oil we have the rear wheels off the ground and the car in neutral...we can

rock the wheels a little to make sure the OD gets everywhere back into the OD

 

Jack Worstell                  jlwmaster@aol.com

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Isn't this great,  Lots of info when you ask.   Its interesting that the lubrication for the OD is ?separate? from the tranny lub ?  I have not seen the tranny blowup to see how they kept the two lubricants in cars such as Studebaker or Hudson's or Fords.    That would be a good pix to see how they did it if Warner said they would be separate.  I just went by Lloyds thoughts.

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The reason they say not to use EP oils is that there is a large bronze part in there. Many modern EP oils do not attack copper-bearing metals so that requirement is diminished - the Copper Strip Corrosion Test ASTM D130 should have a 1a result for 40 oC and 1a or 1b at 100 oC. The major action in these is a set of planetary gears with a free wheeling system at the back.

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)
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I like the way you set up the vent and level checking.    I am going to throw in a caveat.   When I was getting my '38' ready for the club tour last fall, I was draining and replacing the oil in the OD.   I let my mechanic go under the car and while he was sticking his finger around and in the governor opening, he found some foreign objects.   He removed what was a partial of the ball bearing cage.  That part keeps the balls separate for operation.   Not a good thing to find.  I ran a small magnet on a stick into the opening and found some more small parts.   Panic ensued.    I could not drive the '38' on tour.  I called Lloyd right away.   I told him I could be at his shop in two days  -   he said come.   So I pulled the OD complete from tranny thru the overdrive.   I pulled into Glen's shop and Lloyd was there and we pulled the OD apart.   Lloyd was curious on the failure mode.   He said that the output bearing on single bearing output designs can fail but he had never seen the final output bearing die.   My OD is  of the dual bearing output design.   So he, as  he guarantees, rebuilt completely my OD.   bearings and gear sets.  He looked over the sprocket on the input shaft and replaced it with a new sprocket and looked at the sprocket on the drive shaft.   He did not like it so he replace it also.   I think, when I installed my OD at the beginning, did not have lubricant of sufficient quantity for the chain coupling.  Thus, wear on the sprockets.   Any way, rebuilt and back on my '38' and ready for the next long trip to Auburn In. to the Auburn - Cord museum in a few weeks.   I have good confidence it will be a uneventful trip.   My last long trip was to the Nashville Tn area, 1600 miles round trip.   This one will be around 2500 miles.   That is why I bought the Buick.   Reputation !    

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Jim

 

      I think...but I'm not sure...that with a factory set-up  there is a common  vent for the OD and the transmission. because of the way

the housings are made....but somehow the lubricants are kept apart.   On the other hand....I seem to recall Lloyd telling us to use the same lubricant

in the OD as we use in the transmission.....so I'm not sure.

I'm not too concerned about because (a) we have a good vent for the OD   and   (b)  we use the lubricants cited

in the Warner OD manual

 

About the spocklets./chain........there's no relative rotary motion between these components.....just whatever

short motions there might be as a consequence of keeping these components  tight with each other.

Isn't there a seal in the front of the OD which would keep OD lubricant from getting to the spocklets/chain ?

When we removed the OD a few months back ( to re-establish correct speedometer operation.....a long, long story )

we simply smeared a lot of grease on the spocklet;chain when we put everything back together.

 

Jack

 

PS  our OD has two ball bearings on the OD output shaft.......thank goodness

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I wonder if the mounting in the torque tube is not stiff enough?

 

The torque tube will sag slightly with the weight of the OD in the middle. It has to, to mobilise its strength in bending. In addition there is the weight of the OD in the middle bouncing up and down. A heavier torque tube plus front and back mountings might help. The OD was originally made to be bolted on the back of a big, stiff lump of metal, perhaps supported (mine is) so the bearings are not made to handle any slight misalignment of the output shaft (or input shaft for that matter).

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Lloyd used large and beafy flanges to handle the weight and flexation of the torque tube.   Do you have one of Lloyds overdrive units.  Lloyds use of a chain coupling to correct any possible flexation.   I took a good look and the only possible weakness in my opinion was in the rear flange  that attaches to the back of the OD unit.  Physics still can not be fooled.   Mass in motion  always rules.   So the issue has reasonable points.   Evidently Lloyds design’s have stood the test of time.   My opinion is that if he had a problem, it would have become obvious and either fixedor discarded.   Time seems to have shown his design to be more than adequate.   Yup, I am a advocate of his idea and equipment design.   His design has made it nice to drive those wonderful old cars of yesterday.  I’ve done two options to speed up my two cars.  Lloyds overdrive and Bob Pipkins original third member ratio swap.   Lloyds is less expensive and most flexable.   The third member swap is more expensive and less flexable in operation.   Bob’s swap is less obvious  but  nice in its ability not to show the change.   So, as a friend used to say,  lay your money down and take your chances.   If you are’t sure, contact one of our happy users  of the options, drive them around a bit and that will give you the answer you need.   My driving consitions dictate  minimum of  60+  mph with engine rpm limits less than 3000 rpm.  

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My OD system is mounted very close to the original third member.   Maybe an inch or two closer is possible but  the OD is mounted within the last quarter or third of the torque tube .   I’d like to send you pic of my OD system when it was finished.  I’ll. attach it to give you an idea its position to the third member.  Its ready for the trip back home to install and ‘ride’ with the crowd.   65 mph with 2350 rpm all day. 

244860FF-6A11-4CE3-B099-8011E2347F4F.jpeg

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Hi Jack.   Yes there is a sealed bearing in the front of the OD unit.   Also there is the  same style in the output shaft.   So what ever you use, it should not go where it should not go.   The original OD units bolted to the transmission directly and  “might” not have the separation available for lubrication’s.  Sealed bearings came on streem in the ‘40’s so that type of seperation was not available then.   This just gives us a good idea to chase down.    There must be some ‘old’ transmiission rebuilder who can answer this very good problem. 

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Originally the front bearing of the OD was the rear bearing in the gear box. The main shaft projected from the gearbox into the OD unit. In the drawings and photo's I have I can see no way for oil to get through other than through the gear box rear bearing and it is more than 20 years since I overhauled mine so cannot remember. I note, however, there are cutouts in the gaskets between the gear box and the adapter (solenoid mounting) plate and on the other side of the adapter plate.

 

So the adaptation would clearly have to provide a replacement plate, input shaft and bearing on the front of the OD unit.

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