DShoes Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Hey Guys. I'm having a weird, intermittent electrical issue I'm hoping you can help me trouble shoot. My '65 is my daily driver averaging about 7-10 miles a day. Recently, the (aftermarket Retrosound) radio started cutting out and turning back on. This is usually accompanied by a total loss of ability to accelerate. What's odd is that is happens for literally half a beat, almost a stutter, before things turn back on. A month+ ago, I had a faulty voltage regulator that was causing the radio and amp light to freak out and eventually the car shut off while driving. Replaced that and no issues since - until just recently. I'm getting no other "symptoms", such as an amp warning light or other flickering. I had an unfinished door jamb courtesy light switch replacement project going that I thought might be the culprit (loose raw wire), but I wrapped that up last night with everything working and shielded. The car / radio did its stutter step as I put it in gear to get on my way to work this morning...so that wasn't it. Sometimes it'll happen when I'm just in stop & go traffic. Thoughts? Is my alternator starting to fail? Maybe the new voltage regulator is bad and starting to fail? Appreciate your thoughts. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petelempert Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Seems like the new radio installation might be a clue to finding the electrical boogeyman. Just so I understand...Does the stop/start lack of acceleration occur without the radio on? Have you tried pulling all the power off the radio and seeing if it still happens? PRL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Something very common is a bad IGNITION switch. Check to see if any of the wiring is loose or the plastic connector dis-colored from heat. Tom T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShoes Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 I have had the radio in there since August with no issues whatsoever. My sense is that is an indicator of the problem, no the problem. The stop/start acceleration lag issue does occur with the radio off, but double-checking the wiring can't hurt. I recently pulled the ignition switch, cleaned and re-installed it when I was troubleshooting what turned out to be the voltage regulator issue. I will double check it for discoloration and to make sure none of the connections has come loose . This feels more like an overall power supply / regulation problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZRIV Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 For a start, I would connect a voltmeter temporarily so you can watch voltage while driving and see exactly what is happening when it starts acting up. You'll be able to tell if its a gradual decline in voltage or a sudden major discharge like a short circuit. I would carry a fire extinguisher with you until you find source. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnrex Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 I had a similar instance some time back. I found that the spade connector feeding the fuse box from the ignition switch was very loose. Re-crimping that connector stopped the problem. Just a thought. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShoes Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 So I just went and pulled the ignition switch. There is some minor warping / melt on the plastic housing at the red wire. So there is definitely some heat here but no metal on contact to cause a short...but maybe the heat issue IS the problem? Would that come from a faulty switch or from an overload coming down the red wire towards the switch? Forgive my ignorance, electrical is not my thing! Seems like the switch may be the issue, especially how common this problem is. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShoes Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 8 minutes ago, JZRIV said: For a start, I would connect a voltmeter temporarily so you can watch voltage while driving and see exactly what is happening when it starts acting up. You'll be able to tell if its a gradual decline in voltage or a sudden major discharge like a short circuit. I would carry a fire extinguisher with you until you find source. Where do you connect the voltmeter to? The ignition switch wiring so it can be read in while driving? Agreed on the extinguisher! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loren@65GS.com Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 2 hours ago, DShoes said: So I just went and pulled the ignition switch. There is some minor warping / melt on the plastic housing at the red wire. So there is definitely some heat here but no metal on contact to cause a short...but maybe the heat issue IS the problem? Would that come from a faulty switch or from an overload coming down the red wire towards the switch? Forgive my ignorance, electrical is not my thing! Seems like the switch may be the issue, especially how common this problem is. Thanks. Looks like you have come across the source of the problem. The melted connector and burned terminal on the ignition switch says too much Amp draw going through the connection. I would definitely consider a new ignition switch , new plastic connector and new female connector on the red 10ga wire. Most likely issue is that the contact surfaces inside the switch are tarnished / corroded . I have repaired some of the automotive switches with good results. I like to test the resistance before and after servicing. There have been some that had very high resistance to start with. When finished, they usually end up with a 3 - 4 tenths of an Ohm resistance. Loren 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 (edited) If you search the forum, you'll find how you can rewire the ignition switch, using a relay, to avoid running the current through the ignition switch. Saves the headaches you're now experiencing. Edited January 26, 2018 by RivNut (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShoes Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 Fantastic. Thanks for the help all! Next stop: OPGI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, DShoes said: Fantastic. Thanks for the help all! Next stop: OPGI. What are you looking for at OPGI? Whatever it is, I'm sure you can find it cheaper elsewhere and with service to back it up. There are guys here on the forum who can be of help as well as supply you with parts. As one of them says, " If I don't have it, you don't need it!" Edited January 26, 2018 by RivNut (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 NAPA should have/be able to get a new switch for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 16 hours ago, RivNut said: " If I don't have it, you don't need it!" Cheech Marin, 1996, quote: From Dusk Til Dawn. Find your own link. Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Deterioration like illustrated in the connection at the ignition switch is very typical. It does not necessarily indicate an unusual electrical load (although that is certainly possible) but a normal electrical load thru many more CYCLES than the engineers originally anticipated. Each time the ignition switch is cycled, or put into use, there is a heating/cooling cycle which occurs and is normal. Thru thousands of cycles the heating/cooling causes the tension of the metal terminal to be gradually reduced until is becomes loose, starts arching which causes more dramatic heating/cooling, and eventually starts melting the plastic connector housing and causing open circuit issues which you may be experiencing. Having stated the above it is still possible there is an unusual electrical load but you would have likely noticed some symptom like a burning smell, undesirable operation of a component like a dragging starter, or something inop completely. If you find there is still a problem after repairing the issue at your ignition switch, determine which leg of the electrical system you are losing. For instance, when the problem presents itself try turning on the headlights to see if they function. If they function, your connection to the battery and the unswitched circuitry into the dash is OK. At this point you have eliminated the battery, cables, etc and would concentrate on the ignition switch circuitry. Tom Mooney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsgun Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 On 1/26/2018 at 1:21 PM, RivNut said: If you search the forum, you'll find how you can rewire the ignition switch, using a relay, to avoid running the current through the ignition switch. Saves the headaches you're now experiencing. I agree. I suspect the radio, in combination with some intermittent draw, is overloading the switch. A relay would resolve that, as long as it's getting enough power too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 I have driven cars that had the key get hot while it was turned on. The contacts in the switch can have high resistance creating the heat or a high load from corroded junctions in the wire path or added accessory. Checking the ohmic value of the various sections of the circuit should pinpoint a fault. All switches and joints should be close to infinity. Fix the fault and you are back to new. I like the idea of relays for the ignition and lights because it reduces the current load on a hard to find or expensive switch. I have considered that modification. I once had a '56 Olds that I installed an electric choke on. It took power from the primary side of the coil and was constant, a good example. Most 1950's Rolls-Royce cars have a condenser at electrical switching points to reduce the arc and make life easier on the switch contacts. I have never modified a car in that manner, but it is worth the effort. In the instance of the pictured switch I would check the resistance of the closed switch. "When in doubt, change it out." The heavy red wire is the power directly from the battery and needs a thorough investigation. Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShoes Posted January 28, 2018 Author Share Posted January 28, 2018 On 1/26/2018 at 2:07 PM, RivNut said: What are you looking for at OPGI? Whatever it is, I'm sure you can find it cheaper elsewhere and with service to back it up. There are guys here on the forum who can be of help as well as supply you with parts. As one of them says, " If I don't have it, you don't need it!" Good call, Ed. I'd much rather support the guys on here. To that end, any recommendations on who I might reach out to for the plastic female switch connection as well as the relay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 1 hour ago, DShoes said: Good call, Ed. I'd much rather support the guys on here. To that end, any recommendations on who I might reach out to for the plastic female switch connection as well as the relay? Do you have a way of posting a picture of what you need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShoes Posted January 28, 2018 Author Share Posted January 28, 2018 36 minutes ago, RivNut said: Do you have a way of posting a picture of what you need? Already did. See the photo of the damaged connector above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 I played around looking at Google images and found this. I found this link but didn't search it. Perhaps they have one, http://www.delmarwire.com/repair-harness-pigtails/gm-pigtails 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShoes Posted January 29, 2018 Author Share Posted January 29, 2018 3 hours ago, RivNut said: I played around looking at Google images and found this. I found this link but didn't search it. Perhaps they have one, http://www.delmarwire.com/repair-harness-pigtails/gm-pigtails Ed, thank you! Much appreciated. Clearly I have much to learn from your Yoda-like internet sleuthing skills! I will call these guys tomorrow and see what they've got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 I looked again and they had one for a 65 Pontiac. Does anyone know if ignition switches were a corporate item used by all GM models that were built on the same platform? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShoes Posted January 29, 2018 Author Share Posted January 29, 2018 I was wondering the same thing on the switch connection / pigtails. Relays for these ignition switches: I see a number of older posts in support, but little in the way of specifics on what relay to add and where. Does anyone have an experience they can share? Thanks guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 You could just swap out the connector plastic with a good used one and diagnose the reason for overheating and repair it. That is the simplest way. This tool make it easy: https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-56500-Terminal-Tool/dp/B0009OR906 I have had most of the terminal ends off my Riviera, cleaned and serviced the wires, and reassembled them. A high resistance location that often gets overlooked is the bulkhead connector plugs. The spade connectors can get pretty corroded inside then and still let the loads operate. Bernie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShoes Posted January 29, 2018 Author Share Posted January 29, 2018 1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said: You could just swap out the connector plastic with a good used one and diagnose the reason for overheating and repair it. That is the simplest way. This tool make it easy: https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-56500-Terminal-Tool/dp/B0009OR906 I have had most of the terminal ends off my Riviera, cleaned and serviced the wires, and reassembled them. A high resistance location that often gets overlooked is the bulkhead connector plugs. The spade connectors can get pretty corroded inside then and still let the loads operate. Bernie Good thought, Bernie. I'll try cleaning and servicing the wires as a starting point. I like the look of your tool and have it ordered. Now for that plastic connector... So far all I see is this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/62-63-64-65-Buick-Riviera-LeSabre-Wildcat-Electra-Ignition-Switch-Connector-NEW/232630981408?hash=item3629e31320:g:vx4AAOSwxOFaXZzG&vxp=mtr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 If you weigh that 40 bucks against a 2 or 3 hour trip to find one in a junkyard it is not a bad deal. "My Mechanic" who rears his head on here often, would turn that junkyard trip into a $300 part. I have an NOS '60 Buick ignition switch about 10" beyond arms length on the shelf by this computer. I picked it up a couple of years ago when a loose wire was giving me trouble on the foot starter. "Murphy's switch" If I have it I'll never need it, Bernie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 The wire/connector becomes loose because of age & heat buildup. It's a naturally occurring product of expansion & contraction. As it constantly heats & cools the wire terminal becomes loose & generates MORE heat which in the end melts the plastic. It did it on my '64 Riv. when it was about 3yrs. old. I replaced the switch & the plastic connector, which wasn't even available at the dealer, had to buy a whole harness at the time, & went to the salvage yard to get one. I haven't had any problems since then, but every 2-3yrs. I remove my switch & clean the contact & tighten the connector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 3 hours ago, telriv said: The wire/connector becomes loose because of age & heat buildup. It's a naturally occurring product of expansion & contraction. As it constantly heats & cools the wire terminal becomes loose & generates MORE heat which in the end melts the plastic. It did it on my '64 Riv. when it was about 3yrs. old. I replaced the switch & the plastic connector, which wasn't even available at the dealer, had to buy a whole harness at the time, & went to the salvage yard to get one. I haven't had any problems since then, but every 2-3yrs. I remove my switch & clean the contact & tighten the connector. Hi Tom, See my previous post.....there are many years of experience behind our advice. I hope someone takes away some benefit from it! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 (edited) DShoes, Do not simply "clean" the terminal on the large red wire at the ignition switch, REPLACE it. That terminal no longer has the properties which enable it to "grab" the male terminal of the ignition switch due to mettalurgical changes from heating and cooling cycles. If you replace the plastic housing but fail to also replace the female terminal it will melt again. If you cannot find a complete "pigtail", which is the plastic housing with new terminals and a short wire length, a used plastic housing and NEW terminal are available. I would also recommend the appropriate crimping tool for packard connectors. Dont want to see another Riviera go up in flames! Tom Mooney Edited January 29, 2018 by 1965rivgs (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShoes Posted January 29, 2018 Author Share Posted January 29, 2018 11 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said: DShoes, Do not simply "clean" the terminal on the large red wire at the ignition switch, REPLACE it. That terminal no longer has the properties which enable it to "grab" the male terminal of the ignition switch due to mettalurgical changes from heating and cooling cycles. If you replace the plastic housing but fail to also replace the female terminal it will melt again. If you cannot find a complete "pigtail", which is the plastic housing with new terminals and a short wire length, a used plastic housing and NEW terminal are available. I would also recommend the appropriate crimping tool for packard connectors. Dont want to see another Riviera go up in flames! Tom Mooney Thanks Tom. All clear on REPLACING the plastic housing and terminal. That is the plan. I took the cleaning reference as a separate starting point for diagnosing why the wire is overheating. I'd like to add a relay limiting the amps that get pulled across it, but am struggling to any info on how to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) Belden Electric used to make the OEM type terminals with the retainer clips for the plastic plug and the pinch grips for the wire and a separate one for the insulation. NAPA had a big display rack at one time. Someone sharp at the counter should be able to find them. They are not the Sta Kon ones commonly found. It is worth it to have a selection on hand. Here is a male uninsulated terminal of the typr I would use from the NAPA site. Your immediate replacement would be a female uninsulated spade terminal of the same type. There are four tabs at the wire end, two over the wire and two grip the insulation. This one pictured would be common in a bulkhead connector with a matching female. Edited January 30, 2018 by 60FlatTop (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Yes Tom, And to add to that is the reason I suggest using fusible links. See that black wire next to the red wire?? That's a ground!!! When the connection gets bad enough & causes even MORE heat the insulation starts to melt off & they eventually come in contact with each other. A DIRECT SHORT!!! Since they are both 10gauge it's like crossing the positive & negative cables together. It happens SO FAST you don't have time to do ANYTHING!!! Except maybe watching your BABY burn to the ground!!! That's where the fusible link comes into play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Localized heat like that is usually from a bad connection, not a short. The heat most likely came from the spade connection, but could have also come from the contacts inside the switch. Something had too much resistance. The 3 likely suspects are: 1) The contacts in the switch 2) The spade connector, and 3) The crimp where the spade attaches to the wire. This invites a discussion about chickens and eggs, because all three are most likely fried now. We can only guess which one overheated and fried the other two. I would repair the connection with w factory-style spade as Bernie suggested, replace the plastic connector housing and the switch. Make sure to scrape the wire until it is squeaky clean and bright. Use the right kind of crimper to get a nice tight crimp. If it were me, I would also solder it, being careful not to wick solder up the wire. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShoes Posted January 30, 2018 Author Share Posted January 30, 2018 On 1/28/2018 at 6:32 PM, RivNut said: I looked again and they had one for a 65 Pontiac. Does anyone know if ignition switches were a corporate item used by all GM models that were built on the same platform? Ed, just an FYI, Del Mar Wire's two connector / pigtail options (one being the Pontiac) do not line up with my current '65 ignition switch or the one NAPA swears will work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShoes Posted January 30, 2018 Author Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Bloo said: Localized heat like that is usually from a bad connection, not a short. The heat most likely came from the spade connection, but could have also come from the contacts inside the switch. Something had too much resistance. The 3 likely suspects are: 1) The contacts in the switch 2) The spade connector, and 3) The crimp where the spade attaches to the wire. This invites a discussion about chickens and eggs, because all three are most likely fried now. We can only guess which one overheated and fried the other two. I would repair the connection with w factory-style spade as Bernie suggested, replace the plastic connector housing and the switch. Make sure to scrape the wire until it is squeaky clean and bright. Use the right kind of crimper to get a nice tight crimp. If it were me, I would also solder it, being careful not to wick solder up the wire. Bloo, I like where you're coming from. Tons of good common sense in your approach. Might not need that relay after all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShoes Posted January 30, 2018 Author Share Posted January 30, 2018 D@mn it. I think I must be on a hidden camera show. At least I hope someone's getting a good laugh. I'm on my back with my head near the pedals and my hand easing the faulty ignition switch out just now when everything related to the wiper control switch comes raining down on me (no pun intended). I sure hope the shop manual has a good diagram on putting that one back together... Fortunately, its always sunny in Seattle.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 A little late to the party, but I'd concur with the ignition switch being a likely culprit. I had a car that exhibited these exact symptoms; it was the switch. Rather than pull the column to replace the switch (which was a PITA) , I hooked up a jumper that connected the ACC feed to IGN. With the key in RUN, power to the IGN circuit bypassed the IGN contacts in the switch. I also added a toggle switch under the dash to disable the jumper and rely on the stock wiring in case I wanted to listen to the radio while parked or something. If I'd known I was going to drive that car for a few more years, I probably would've fixed it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasander Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Just bought an NOS on eBay for 63 for $47 plus shipping Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 I think I would have the dash pad off and the instrument cluster out by now, maybe even put the steering column outside the car. And I'd be testing home runs with an ohmmeter. 40 entries for a pretty simple job. I am looking up at the McGraw Hill Automotive Electrical Equipment book my Mother helped me buy in 1959. I still reach for it and many other automotive references quite often. Using a training/reference source is best. Find some good DC basic learning materials. There are three types of electricians, construction electricians, maintenance electricians, and automotive electricians. The similarity ends with copper conductors, sometimes not even that. Take a couple of weeks to get steeped in some good automotive electrical learning and avoid the anecdotal advice. You will enjoy it more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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