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1922 Fiat 501 Targa Florio


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Bernie,

Talking about the approach to problem solving in the early days of motoring reminds me of the story about , I think Napier, and their first 6 cylinder engine. For some time they struggled with rough running, could not find anything wrong. In the end, the story goes, they lowered the compression on No 5 cylinder, and it ran well. Problem solved.

My 26 rover has its dynamo chain driven, but the chain tension is adjusted by having 2 of the 3 mounting stud holes slotted (in the dynamo flange), so it pivots on the 3rd stud.

 

The  fact that the 501 is RHD is curious - was there a time in Europe when the driver's side was decided by the makers?  If so, when did that change?

 

jp

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The Rolls Royce of Fiats, the 519, was also only built in RHD form.  Perhaps they saw their largest markets as overseas plus the fact that Italy changed officially from left to right in 1924 could have a bearing.

Matthew

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One contributor to the Ferrari Chat forum has replied to a question regarding Ferraris; "which were all made post war" .

"ALL old Alfa's & Lancia's were RHD until as late as the early 1950's when they started making LHD. Italy used to drive on the left, so this follows. I suggest that Ferrari when starting out in 1947 built RHD cars, simply because that was their Countries "standard" a RHD and to match their competition in their home market."

Certainly the Vintage Fiats were built RHD, simply because at the time of their manufacture, all Italian cars were RHD. Driving on the left side of the road was the rule in Italy at the time (1920s). As it is a very long time since I last bought a new Ferrari, (i.e. Never). I cannot comment on them.

All the post WW2 Fiats I have owned were RHD simply because we did and still do drive on the left side of the road in Australia. Perhaps not so strangely, we still acknowledge Queen Elizabeth II as the Queen of Australia. Who said "We are a weird mob"?

 

Bj.

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)
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M.png.c3a14ffacea5d0d38ffb4eb53ed17673.png  
mike6024 said:

Here is my guess. A cable that actuates the rear brakes wraps around that pulley. You'd need a pulley to equalize the tension on the left and right rear brakes. The high temp will be 90 Fahrenheit and it'll get dark about 9 pm here. 

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I am not sure what happened Mike, I received the above as an email but it had not shown up here so I have copied the email and pasted it above.

You are correct up to a point, they are for making adjustments to the foot brake. There is just the single cable for the foot brake. Starting at the left side rear wheel the cable runs forward and over the little brass pulley then down trrough the hole in the centre of the "adjuster" it then continues on through the hole through the shaft (through gearbox housing) and out through the "adjuster" on the other side, up and over the second pulley and back to the right back wheel. Pushing on the pedal pulls the cable forward over the pulley wheels. To "adjust"  the brakes the adjuster is screwed out thus increasing the tension on the cable. None of this is explained in any of the three Owners handbooks that I have. although one does suggest that the driver uses the engine to slow the car, changing down one or two gears depending on the steepness of the hill. None include a photograph or diagram showing the method to be used for brake adjustment. Sadly you will have to wait for a liitle while until have the rear axle and brake cables sorted out.

Even after so many years of use the binding on the (original) owners handbook makes reading difficult. People with a lively imagination can guess what the obscured words are. 

This illustration shows the route taken by the cable. It is from the Italian language Hand book.

1483378049_Brakes1.thumb.jpeg.8ebf896c955b42596777eff85047d041.jpeg

 

Brakes.thumb.jpeg.ad8bfb95d203581a774036ca4bb12cf5.jpeg

 

Bj.

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)
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Have you compared an  Imperial 5/16 inch Whitworth side by side with a M8-1.25, meaning 8 mm and 1.25 mm per thread ( pitch ) ? I've never seen a Whitworth, but 5/16 inch is about 8 mm so I am thinking they might be close. I just can't imagine why FIAT would mix metric with Imperial ?

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M7 is pretty uncommon today - only seen it once on a Japanese model aero engine shaft. Maybe they inherited a job lot of unfinished studs and couldnt get suitable nuts? 

jp 26 Rover 9

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Bernie,

Yes, I had forgotten about the use of the odd metric sizes in the early years. Re your pulleys, I was told many years ago that for efficient use of cables across pulleys, the pulley diameter should be approx 20 x the cable diameter, and looking at the width of the those pulley grooves , they are much smaller than that.....unless the cables are smaller than I think? Dont have that problem with the Rover, its all 5/16W rods in tension.

jp 26 Rover 9

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On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 10:42 AM, oldcar said:

Further to the above, I take it all back. The little men in the thread cutting section at Fiat must have been driven insane,

In among the metric nuts and bolts, just to make sure that you had your thinking hat on, they would throw in an occasional Whitworth thread. I think that the classic example has to be the studs screwed into the crankcase and sump around the bell housing to hold the gearbox on. These are nominally 1 7/8 inch long x 5/16 inch or 7mm depending on which end you look at. 
Yes that is correct one end has an Imperial 5/16inch Whitworth thread while the other has a 7mm Metric thread. The end that screws into the Crankcase and Sump is Whitworth while the end that receives the nut that holds the gearbox on is Metric. Some to these studs were either damaged by people trying to screw on the wrong nuts or were missing. While this may offend some of the purists, I decided to replace the lot, buying a length of 5/16 Whitworth Stainless "Allthread" and cutting it up into the required 1 7/8 inch lengths and using new Whitworth nuts and new washers. 

Bernie j.

 

1672907577_Bellhousingstud.jpeg.8ad1383c3a8bd5e8d1ebd43476784cca.jpeg

 

I would suggest that the use of a BSW  thread in aluminium is normal and perhaps the best for strength and the Fiat engineers not wanting to have an unusual thread on the nut side of the stud reverted to metric.  As for using "Booker rod" and a BSW thread on the nut side this only creates confusion and is unnecessary considering how easy studs are to make. 

Edited by Stude17 (see edit history)
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16 minutes ago, oldcar said:

Hello Stude 17

In the words of someone famous although I have forgotten who, "Easy for you, difficult for me". While I have been involved in messing about with old motor cars for around 55-60 years in one way or another, I have never learnt the skill of metal working i.e. with a lathe & or mill. Everything I do is done using very basic hand tools, some almost as old as I am.

However I am sorry but I am not going to let this unforgivable lack of knowledge stop me from enjoying my hobby. If you have ever worked on a 1920's Fiat you would know that mixing threads and nut profiles never stopped them from building their cars.  As you are probably aware I did own a 1920 Studebaker for a very brief period and I do not regret selling it at all. If I need sophistication all I need to do is walk out the door and look at my 1934 Lagonda Rapier, a car I have owned and maintained since buying it as a wreck and rebuilding it in 1978. My wife and I have driven in it for over 100,000 miles including six visits to the UK and Europe. (We live in Australia) Our longest visit to Europe was for Five Months using the Lagonda Rapier as a daily driver throughout that time. I do all my own maintenance including rebuilding the (Twin overhead cam) engine and Pre-selector gearbox. As you may be able to understand from the photographs below, the Lagonda Rapier engine is just a tad more sophisticated than a side valve Studebaker. The final photographs shows the Lagonda  Rapier as it was in the 1950s & 60s

631758216_KGintheAlpsagain.4.thumb.jpg.9c17b8ae4cd67e07981c4dc7b44fc863.jpg

 

 

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 Your response is typical of your approach to other people's views and I find it basically irrelevant other than the part where you allude to a lathe and mill.  You do not need these items of equipment to make these studs and further you are not the only person who has spent their lifetime working on old cars. Yes easy for me only because I have made many such items often with basic equipment and other time with a lathe etc.

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This is what my vehicle looks like under the hood, for the sake of disclosure or whatever other reason. You've never owned an Alfa have you Bernie? A 1967 is by no means an antique by any standard, but it has no power steering, power brakes, air conditioning or electronic fuel injection. Open touring and gives more road feel than any modern car. If I drive directly to the west, you know where I end up? Bodega Bay where the Alfred Hitchcock movie The Birds was filmed. Do you happen to know which car was featured in that film?

Camera Shots 411.jpg

Camera Shots 410.jpg

P2150002.JPG

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13 minutes ago, oldcar said:

Then just like any other 80+ year old I completely forgot about them. Oh well!

 

I have the same problem Bernie, and I'm only 60+ :)

 

Looking forward to the next round of pictures. Sounds like you are making good progress.

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On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 8:02 PM, oldcar said:

Good Morning Paul

The main thing is not to let it get you down!  Life without a project would be a disaster for me. I find that apart from having to use my hands, that having to exercise my mind every day is very important. I see too many of my friends without anything to do and nothing to keep them active just slipping away, both physically and mentally. I really do appreciate the interest and interaction with you and the other contributors here. 

Thank you

Bernie j.

 

I'm always meeting people who are recently retired and they ask what I do to stay busy. My response is always that I have so much to do that I still go back to work a couple of days a week to rest! Seriously, it amazes me how many 'retired' people say they are so bored with nothing to do. I invite them over to scrape grease off car parts and beadblast parts but no one has taken me up on that. :(

 

We all enjoy following your progress and challenges Bernie. Thank you for your posts!!

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