mercer09 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 I would keep looking. 37 and 38 4 dr sedans should be in xlnt condition for 20k. The ones you are looking at are not worth nearly what they are asking. Demand is a bit low on these models, because of the 4 doors and the humpback trunk. They never garnered high dollars. I owned a rare 37 2 dr slantback and they are great cruising cars, so you have picked a great car, by going with a Buick. Be patient and dont rush into anything you will later regret. Very easy to buy and always much harder yo sell............................ 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 The price is 15K or best offer, which still may be too high... I am trying not to rush and be patient. Thank you for your advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 That Model 48 is not a 4 door. It is a 2 door sedan. I have to disagree with the anti-4 door comment. The 4 door cars are probably in higher demand due to the touring nature of the 36-38 Buick Club. It is nice to be able to take other people along for the ride. With all of the incorrect items that I see in just the driving video, I would think that you will find a much better example for around $15,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 Like yourself, I prefer the four door model for the practical aspect-take other people along, etc... I have to agree with you as well with regards to 4 door sedans being in higher demand as of lately for some reason... It seems that a year or so ago, you could not sell them! today, I cannot find one fast enough is good condition... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawrence Helfand Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Nothing is better in actual real world driving then keeping pace with modern traffic. After having owned many American and European vehicles I have found it frustrating to be concerned about going to fast for the welfare of my drive train. I would hold out for a 38 Century with its big motor and coil springs it is better then a 37 leaf spring 248 special in performance and better looking to me then a 37 but thats subjective of course. The 38 Century already comes with the gearing braking and suspension that would elevate it into the high speed touring category of Buicks for years to come. My 41 Century has everything I wished for over Specials and Supers I have driven. Two doors will aways be scarcer and more valuable then four doors and always will cost more like ragtops. Buy a car you dont have to make into what it should be. I see nice Centurys under 20K all the time and would hold out for an original one that has been cared for or in storage for a long time and avoid "restored" at all cost. Centurys are harder to find but worth waiting for and are a better investment and quicker sale when your moving on. If you do buy a 37 special you will surely love it regardless and also find cruising at 60/65 no problem as long as engine temperature and oil pressure are within normal range. 50/55 are for the over heating flat head Fords! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted January 30, 2018 Author Share Posted January 30, 2018 Hello Lawrence, I surely appreciate your input and humor regarding Fords! There is something appealing to me still, and I take no offense...Something about the way they sound. Yet it is a fact that an overhead valve motor outperforms a flathead... Still would not mind owning one as a second best!..;) With you regarding having to worry about the pace of a car and possibly damaging certain components; such as might be the case with a Special in highway traffic... Everyone says 50/55 max, otherwise you're at the limit.. That is why I posed a question earlier about the redline of a Buick 248 Cu. motor... No one nailed the answer. I Imagine it would be close to it at 65mph? Do you find the Century Better looking only because of the longer nose? Now to your next statement, which really surprised me.. "I see nice Centurys under 20K all the time and would hold out for an original one that has been cared for or in storage for a long time and avoid "restored" at all cost." The part about finding a good one under 20K?? I beg you to tell me where??? Please!.. and then the avoid "restored" at all cost really took me back.. Are you saying that only because a restored Century would contradict your earlier statement regarding price, or because you have found that most out there are doing substandard work and still trying to get a high dollar value for them? As far as oil pressure at idle hot... Is 30 PSI good @ 180 F? If less than that (let's say 20 hot) on an otherwise untouched quiet motor, would you install a new oil pump (Are the Fireball pumps better?) and maybe a 160 Deg. thermostat for better cooling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Phillip, 30psi is good oil pressure. 180 degrees should be normal on these cars in regular use. If less oil pressure, typically you just need to drop the oil pan, remove the oil pump, disassemble it, clean it, and sand down the grooves that the gears have worn in the oil cover plate. Reassemble it all, and the oil pressure should be back where it should be. It is not a hard job. If you look at my 1938 Century Restoration discussion, you will see a description and photos of this process. I would not have any fear of a restored car if I know and trust who restored it. I would be careful buying a restored car when I could not talk with the restorer. In that case, inspect it closely. I would expect you can find a good Century somewhere around $20,000 eventually. Specials are much easier to find. Join the 36-38 Buick Club and eventually, you will find one advertised in the newsletter that will be perfect for you. It is also not uncommon for cars to be sold from member to member without ever being advertised. Being in the club gives you an advantage on finding a car. Some people would rather sell a car cheaper to a club member who they trust to take care of it, rather than advertise it and make a little bit more money on the sale. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 philipj, may I address a couple of your questions? From the last paragraph. I cannot tell you where, sorry, I read that any pressure at hot idle is ok. I do not know for 1937, but the Shop Manual for 1950 reads oil pressure should be 35# at 35 MPH. In normal operation, it does not get but little higher at higher speeds. I would think 1937 would be no greater. The thermostat does little if anything towards "better" cooling. It only sets the MINIMUM operating temperature by restricting flow at lower temps. If ANY car is experiencing cooling problems, i.e. , running 200 or above, the radiator is first suspect. I actually run a 190 in my 1950. The cooling system on it is pressured while I believe the 1937 is not. As far as speed! My goodness, thoughts are all over the place. Of course a 320 CI engine with more HP and a higher speed gear will run faster speed! Our family never had a 1937. I believe there were changes made for the 1938 . We did have '38, '39' '40' '41, and later. Speeds of 60 -65 were common. Higher when warranted. Or not. How fast would a 1952 Chevrolet run? I rountinly out ran Bob Cole's with my 1940 SPECIAL. I don't know what gear it had, but suspect a 4.44:1. Buy a 1937. Drive it. If you don't like it , sell or trade. Nothing is set in stone. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted January 30, 2018 Author Share Posted January 30, 2018 Very good insight, thank you... I guess I really need to put my patience cap on and join the club, then wait... Unless a really super nice special comes along at a very reasonable price... I have a lead on an unrestored running/driving Century from Mr. John R. Young (Eunice, LA) but no details yet...Hopefully by the end of this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted January 30, 2018 Author Share Posted January 30, 2018 Now, this is what I mean by finding this enterprise frustrating...when I see this sort of listing. I approached the owner weeks before this Ebay listing... Why would you think that a 38 Special that has been sitting for years is worth 18K? Insane... He would not budge on the price. I imagine this should be in the 10 to 12K range.. https://www.ebay.com/itm/1938-Buick-Other/292425369684?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1431.l2649 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39BuickEight Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 You can’t list an item that’s not yours anyway. The listing should be flagged. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 49 minutes ago, philipj said: Very good insight, thank you... I guess I really need to put my patience cap on and join the club, then wait... Unless a really super nice special comes along at a very reasonable price... I have a lead on an unrestored running/driving Century from Mr. John R. Young (Eunice, LA) but no details yet...Hopefully by the end of this week. If John has a car for sale that is in your price range, Buy it. You can trust John to be 100% honest in any description. He also will not have cut any corners in restoration or repairs. He is a good guy and a member of the 36-38 Buick Club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted January 30, 2018 Author Share Posted January 30, 2018 We're discussing cars that are available, their condition and pricing... Naturally, none belong to me, hence the postings.. No harm done here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted January 30, 2018 Author Share Posted January 30, 2018 I like John, and have no qualms whatsoever, I know he is on the level.. Just wish I could get the information already so I can purchase one of his cars..;) I understand he is a very busy individual and just have to be patient.. If I have it my way, I will purchase a 38 Century that we've briefly discussed today... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Philip, on the question of price I can appreciate your frustration, but the fact that someone sets an unrealistically high price for a car doesn't mean you won't eventually find something affordable if you have patience. I know you are looking for a 37 or 38, so this is not directly on point, but when I was looking for a car I found the 41 Century listed below for $19,500, which seemed like an exceptional deal. It was unfortunately out of my price range. A few weeks later, I checked it again and the dealer had raised the price to $21,500. Shortly after that, it was sold. It is a super clean original car, as you can see from the photos. (I still have second thoughts about letting this go, as you can probably tell!) https://www.connorsmotorcar.com/vehicles/404/1941-buick-century Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted January 30, 2018 Author Share Posted January 30, 2018 That was an exceptional beautiful car @ 19 or 21 K... A shame that the dealer raised the price and made it even more difficult for you-which I may not agree with, but that is another matter... The fact is that, when you're looking for something specific and on a budget you have to be very patient... Quite unfortunately patience is not my strong suit, but I decided today to wait for what I really want and not settle!... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 I had no problem with the dealer raising the price -- it was out of my range at 19,500, and I would have had to pay transportation costs as well. But I still go on the website and drool over the pictures and wish I could have been able to afford it! I think you are making the right decision to wait for what you really want. I don't see the market for these cars jumping way up anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Phillip , we have been honored by your welcome presence here for a mere month. I enjoy the opportunity to ride along on car hunts in every way possible , and have eagerly followed your search. I am very impressed with your evolution towards the car you NEED (A CENTURY ! NO LESS !) , and realization that only patience and perseverance will deliver for you. Lawrence Helfand in response #45 above pretty much hits all marks in his summary. Settling for less on your part might end up being somewhat unsatisfactory for you. This would also be an invitation to good old Murphy to come along with exactly the car you need , right after you had spent those hard earned bucks for a compromise. I am tempted to post pics yet again of the results of productive searches for a specific open 1924 Cadillac (a very short and enjoyable 3 year search taking place 30 years ago) , and the 20 year search for the closed companion to it , my 1927 Cadillac. If I don't hear howls of "Oh no , Carl , not again ! Please !" , I will go ahead and post here. Since you are new here , you will not know the story of these 2 great finds. If I am asked not to take up space with the same old same old , I will send same to you by P.M. VERY pleased to see that you are the hoss who upon being led to water , has decided to take the time to drink. Patience and perseverance , Phillip ! Only Century will fill the bill for you. If you are tempted to backslide , please read 45 again as per above. One of your many forum friends , - Cadillac Carl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted January 31, 2018 Author Share Posted January 31, 2018 Hello Neil, not really in my nature to wait for much of anything, but I think you and many others here are correct in stating that the best course of action is to do it-wait for the better car.. Even if I get a good price on a Special, why spend the effort to modify it and try to make it perform like a Century? It will always be close; for a the driver-a great car perhaps, but to the purist it will always be a Special... Carl, thank you for your kindness... All you guys here have been great responding to my questions and concerns... I try to see everyone's point of view and appreciate all the advice given... I wish there were places to ride along in So. Florida and go for car hunts, but there is nothing at .. Unlike New England, it is indeed a treasure of antique cars! I need to find Lawrence Helfand response regarding this and refresh my memory in case I am tempted to backslide! My dear friend, I admire your persistence and dedication regarding your 3 and 20 year search for the Cadillac's ... Frankly, unless I had something in my garage, I could not stand the psychological torture...Surely there was something else in your stable already!..:) After almost 3 months of looking for a prewar car and finally settling on a Buick, I feel I am at the end of my rope sometimes, and have decided to stop looking so hard... The seed is planted, hope for the best. Carl, regarding your search and story.... I would like to know about it and you're more than welcome to send a PM or share the link to the old post... Either way, I would like to hear it... Thank you again for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawrence Helfand Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 HI Philip, In regards to engine rpm I think red line on all cars is usually past peak HP and top speed is achieved at about that limit of power being able to overcome drag so if the top speed of a Special is 85/90 miles and hour then at 65 it will be well below red line. Good oil and good crank mains is key in high speed extended driving and some oils are way better then others . Internal friction varies with tolerances and often a new motor will have a lower top speed and generate more heat then one that is a bit looser with less internal drag. My 40 thousand mile 320 runs 30lbs oil pressure at idle and 45lbs cruising at speed which is factory spec. I run a 180 stat and it stays there except in hot weather sitting for extended time it will show 195 but never over heats. Removing the lower shrouds to let in air from below helps cooling especially when parked hot and especially on the right side to cool the vapor locking fuel pump a little. I always open the hood latch to release some heat when stopped as it really is trapped in there with little convection from cooler ground air being able to circulate. I re cored my radiator with a modern better draining core and that is really a plus for cooling. I am not a fan of the heat risers and have mine pinned open as the intake manifold needs no additional help warming itself up on a Buick outside of serious winter start ups and who in St Paul right now is clearing the snow off their Buick eight for a run to the store? Yes I do like the proportions of the only slightly longer hood and front fenders on my Century but beauty is subjective. I love the looks of most prewar Buicks and forgive me but 39's not so much. About restored I find that the word has little meaning and most of the time is misleading so you must know what your looking at and what to ask about. Very seldom do I see restoration work that is with out issues that I will want to redo. With a largely unrestored car you get more honestly about its life and maintenance that for me is better then finding out in time just what a rough example lies beneath the shiny paint and new interior. That nice handsome looking 38 on Ebay is less then 18K ...thats just a wishful buy it now and reserve might be a lot less and ebay does not let you set them too close. That is just the kind of condition you want and a nice alternative color to black. The interior is very very good as is the engine bay. Tidy and clean this car shows care of ownership and respect to the originality. If you wanted a good start this might be a winner and as original cars are the focus of the market a good investment. Finding a car is just a matter of surfing sites and club forums and not being scared off by high prices. Sellers now must start high as car culture TV has taught us to low ball sellers hard. They will come way down with a real cash in hand buyer in most cases. Lots of motivated sellers with one car garages this time of year dreaming about buying something new! I am! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted January 31, 2018 Author Share Posted January 31, 2018 Hello Lawrence, thank you for the education... I just don't know enough about Buick motors yet, but it is getting better!.. I will certainly do the same thing here when I get my car, since it is pretty darn hot here in Fl. and I intend to drive it as much as I can... I know I brought the question of a lower temp. thermostat (160F) but I guess it would not make much difference... Would you consider 195 or 200 F the safe zone, since coolant will probably boil at 220? In agreement with you regarding the beauty/balanced lines of most prewar cars with the exception of the 39... Is a bit of an ugly duckling, and for what I understand it had higher running temperatures due to the new (poor) design... I now remember something I said to a friend years ago about older cars... I'm not so worried about the outside, or impressed by the paint, but I am more concerned with what is underneath... I will never understand why people are "restoring" cars ad leaving filthy, rusty, and grimey engine compartments; as well as the undersides... Even if you choose not to remove the body, at least clean it up underneath!.. As you can see, it is a pet peeve.. Another tip of advice I got is that, if you cannot obtain any information from a current seller about the restoration work, stay away or give it a closer look... In case of engine rework, ask for a compression test, etc.. The handsome looking 38 Special on Ebay looks honest through and through, and I don't have a problem with it per say-I like it quite a bit... Just annoyed that the owner would not budge on the price (contacted him a few weeks ago) even though the vehicle has not run in years and potentially can have many hidden surprises... In retrospect I have to take a step back, move on and respect his position. Especially now that I have decided to wait and focus on finding an honest 1938 Century...Which I think I have. Please wish me luck here! Thanks again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 9 hours ago, philipj said: In agreement with you regarding the beauty/balanced lines of most prewar cars with the exception of the 39... Is a bit of an ugly duckling, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, philipj said: In agreement with you regarding the beauty/balanced lines of most prewar cars with the exception of the 39... Is a bit of an ugly duckling, Like most 39's were. I might add that applies to most 58's. Sorry it is what it is...............Bob Edited February 1, 2018 by Bhigdog (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 You might be able to fit a 38 nose and make it pretty... Can't you?..:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 10 minutes ago, philipj said: You might be able to fit a 38 nose and make it pretty... Can't you?..:) I had a nose job years ago. Now I'm a lot better looking.................Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Just now, Bhigdog said: I had a nose job years ago. Now I'm a lot better looking.................Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 HEE HEE HEE!.........................Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 I think this is the time when you hear the music and inmortal words!..:)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted February 10, 2018 Author Share Posted February 10, 2018 Since we're having fun, I actually found two nice running cars for sale here. Really like the color of the 37 if it is original... https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/d/buicks/6484592216.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted February 10, 2018 Author Share Posted February 10, 2018 And a very nice 37 Special for sale, unfortunately a bit over the top ... https://phoenix.craigslist.org/cph/cto/d/1937-buick-special-8-40-series/6471961073.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibarlaw Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 (edited) Over the top is right for the blue side-mounted Special. It may be an exterior cosmetic restoration. Interior looks nice. The dash was painted brown instead of being wood-grained. The steering wheel cover is a dead giveaway as to crumbling plastic. They mention new 600-16 white walls. It is to have 650-16s. The previous ad you posted dallas.craigslist shows the cars are in Pennsylvania? Above Allentown. The 37 looks to be red oxide primer with a bit of paint peeking out under the right headlight. Running??? It would be good to get a photo or 2 of that engine. On the 37, maybe running when parked? How about the hood ornament on the 1941! Both look to be full on restorations The 41 engine (red) with dual carbs looks as if it may be operable at least. Edited February 11, 2018 by dibarlaw Added content (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cxgvd Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 You two, Phillipe and Bob make me sad, you are relaying an opinion written 50 years ago by George Damman in Seventy Years of Buick, without any definable new facts. The undisputed leader in style of those years is the 1938 Cadillac Sixty Special and you should please note, if you took the time to form your own opinion, the '39 copies the modern line of the Cadillac IMHO. The '40 Super even more. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share Posted February 11, 2018 Well, I still don't know how these folks are coming up with such prices.... Even if you take into account the fact that the value has gone up, say in the last 3 years or so... You know the investment is not even close to their asking price, and they've had these for a while... Despite having a few defects and even maybe with the wrong tires-yet cosmetically ok; it seems that everyone is looking to double (and then some) their actual investment on these cars... Drives me crazy! Another thing to consider, maybe they do not really want to sell at those prices and are just testing the waters! The other cars may well be in PA. I did not make an inquiry, but thought someone might be able to negotiate a good price for two running cars... There is a lot of potential there, maybe for 16 or 17K for the pair...Fair? I see the grey paint on the 37 now. I thought it was a faded reddish color I have seen on brochures which is very pretty. Apparently they both run, but only the 41 gets taken out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share Posted February 11, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, cxgvd said: You two, Phillipe and Bob make me sad, you are relaying an opinion written 50 years ago by George Damman in Seventy Years of Buick, without any definable new facts. The undisputed leader in style of those years is the 1938 Cadillac Sixty Special and you should please note, if you took the time to form your own opinion, the '39 copies the modern line of the Cadillac IMHO. The '40 Super even more. Gary Well, I am surprised that you took our opinions personally... They're just opinions. We just were having a bit of fun. Nothing different happens today. All car manufacturers copy each other and everyone claims to be the best! Though the undisputed leader in performance was Buick, take the Century for instance.. I thought we formed our own opinion, but you just did not happen to agree with it!..:) The 38 and 39 Buicks and Caddy's look identical indeed; yet I don't know who copied who... Edited February 11, 2018 by philipj (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 54 minutes ago, cxgvd said: You two, Phillipe and Bob make me sad, you are relaying an opinion written 50 years ago by George Damman in Seventy Years of Buick, without any definable new facts. The undisputed leader in style of those years is the 1938 Cadillac Sixty Special and you should please note, if you took the time to form your own opinion, the '39 copies the modern line of the Cadillac IMHO. The '40 Super even more. Gary And just whose opinion are you basing your opinion on? Undisputed? Indeed. Well, I dispute that! Good show, Philipj and Bob. Please continue. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 I'm not really a fan of the '38 Cadillacs and the '60 Special, while ground-breaking, didn't really look like it was supposed to look (the way Mitchell envisioned it) until '41. I don't much care for the nose on the '38 Cadillacs and find the Buick to be much more trim and attractive. But again, that's purely opinion. It isn't wrong to like redheads, even if your buddy likes brunettes, right? There is no right or wrong, you just like what you like. There are plenty of cars out there that make us scratch our heads and wonder why someone would like that thing, but there's a guy happily spending time and money on it. Diversity is better, not worse, because it makes the things we like that much more precious to us, particularly in comparison to things we don't like. Variety keeps life interesting, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share Posted February 11, 2018 With you there, but I don't even like the 41 models.. I am afraid I am stuck on the 36, 37, 38 look for most cars of that era... They have that curvier look, yet they still manage to appear slender with finer features upfront-everything in perfect balance... The newer year models appear bulky up front. Just a matter of opinion and taste as you pointed out... No one should be faulted for liking redheads, brunettes, or blondes..;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchan Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Buick managed to give the fenders just enough of a shape so the vertical surfaces don't look flat while keeping them from looking bulbous, as I think the Caddy/Lasalle fenders do. I think the 38-40 Caddys have a nice look; the 41, which is wildly popular with Caddy folks, just looks squat to me. Like you say Philip, balance is the thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Funny thing , Suchan , I have the same appreciation for the '38 - '40 60 special over the '41. My first drivable car was a '39 60 S. No sidemounts. $100 back in 1960 or '61. Moved out pretty well , very good brakes. Comfortable everything. - Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted February 12, 2018 Author Share Posted February 12, 2018 Talk about good old days! $100 in 1960 for a fast nice car, with good brakes! I wasn't even born!..;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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