trimacar

A pet peeve - the hobby is dying and old cars are junk

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2 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

Actually I am. My morning routine is to have my morning coffee while I read my local rag (hence the Abby) and the WSJ

As long as you also read the WSJ, my concerns are alleviated...  :-)

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4 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

no opposition to any legislation restricting our use of or enjoyment of them.

 

NO legislation comes without a financial penalty attached. Our cars will be fine as long as the fee, tax, or tribute is paid.

 

Ask the people in Arizona who bought solar panels and are now being taxed for using sunshine. Your elected officials will help you.

Bernie

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17 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

Our cars will be fine as long as the fee, tax, or tribute is paid.

 

Unless air bags are mandated if persons under 14 are in the car. Or anti lock brakes are mandated if the car is driven within 1000 yards of a school zone .........etc etc etc. Lots of ways for over zealous public servants to grandstand in the name of protecting THE CHILDREN. Especially when the group being gored is small and ineffective.............Bob

Edited by Bhigdog (see edit history)

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28 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

public servants to grandstand in the name of protecting the CHILDREN.

 A large New York area school district installed speed monitoring cameras on roads adjacent to the school property. In the first year of use they were very effective. And reduced the county income, in part school revenue by nearly $1,00,000. The cameras were removed to reestablish cash flow.

 

So we have established a limit to the protection of children, about a million bucks on this round.

 

To the point of the topic, there is always a work around. I intend to be enjoying my old car hobby 30 years from now in pretty much the same manner as I do today. Some aspects will just cost more, be it from decreased participants or increased regulation. You can bet the Hobby is more adaptable than that school district. (They probably had a million dollars of unfunded state mandates to pay).

 

Its a circus.

 

Bernie

Edited by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

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1 hour ago, Grimy said:

A strong red, by all means--a young zin is ideal.  Save your white for armadillo roadkill...

 

Armadillo roadkill?  In Louisiana we always thought they were born dead on the side of the road.

 

I agree on gasoline and the IC engine, it's not going away anytime soon.  For one thing, the infrastructure isn't there to support enough electric vehicles to replace all the IC engine vehicles.  Contrary to what a lot of tree huggers think, you still have to produce energy and pollute to some degree to generate electricity.  Pollution also occurs when the batteries are manufactured, and it takes a couple of years of driving an electric car to "get that back" as far as offsetting the equivalent IC pollution.

 

If every IC car were taken off the road tomorrow, and instantly replaced by electric cars, you'd have lines waiting to get the batteries charged, and electricity would have to be rationed. 

 

I'm not against electric cars, but to think that they're going to replace all IC cars in the next couple of decades seems more than ambitious and less than feasible.

armadillo.jpg

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All true, Bernie, but to get to the original point, the hobby is fighting head winds and growth, if any, will be hard fought and not very likely in the long term...............Bob

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Would the middle class being wiped out in the united states maybe have something to do with this expensive hobby dying off?   

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44 minutes ago, benjamin j said:

Would the middle class being wiped out in the united states maybe have something to do with this expensive hobby dying off?   

 

Any hobby and especially an expensive hobby is dependent on discretionary income. As the economy continues it's remarkable recovery it's likely  the "hobby" will  reflect that. But the overall head winds will remain long term and smooth out the minor ups and downs....................Bob

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Grimy wrote white wine, not white line.

armadillo.jpg.64f56019346429368c6263554c

 

I did think this was interesting: https://civilwartalk.com/threads/why-is-interest-in-the-civil-war-declining.136552/

 

And a wealthy middle class is significant. People who have cars for toys are wealthy. And some have a few.

 

Wealthy have been targeted as the "juicy tomato" to squeeze by recent administrations. It appears the wealthy are not the idle rich, but those who are not supported and fully dependent on a government subsidy. Collector car owners fall into that group.

 

You can spout Dylan Thomas til the cows come home, but that good night is coming. I won't see it end, but the few people around 30 years old who share our interest are going to have to adapt.

I actually closed the browser and got a little work done today, not on the cars, but a bit for the future gasps of the middle class.

Bernie

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4 hours ago, Grimy said:

A strong red, by all means--a young zin is ideal.  Save your white for armadillo roadkill...

Well, for some reason this keeps coming on my reply....OH, white WINE!

 

Interesting to read the Civil War thread, even they can't agree whether interest is really waning.  Of course, there's a lot of silly interest in monuments, but that's another story.

 

Let's see, the Civil War was over 150 years ago, and still a hot topic of conversation and tens of thousands of people fascinated with it.  Our oldest cars are around 118 years old, so does that mean we have at least 32 more years of antique car interest?

 

I think the market is the biggest indicator.  Right now, most good quality antique cars are as expensive as they've ever been, and some are going up in value dramatically.  When all car values fall to about 50% of what they are today, then I'll concede that the hobby is on hard times.  Even then, the cheapest Duesy will still be out of my price range.....

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27 minutes ago, trimacar said:

Well, for some reason this keeps coming on my reply....OH, white WINE!

 

Interesting to read the Civil War thread, even they can't agree whether interest is really waning.  Of course, there's a lot of silly interest in monuments, but that's another story.

 

Let's see, the Civil War was over 150 years ago, and still a hot topic of conversation and tens of thousands of people fascinated with it.  Our oldest cars are around 118 years old, so does that mean we have at least 32 more years of antique car interest?

 

I think the market is the biggest indicator.  Right now, most good quality antique cars are as expensive as they've ever been, and some are going up in value dramatically.  When all car values fall to about 50% of what they are today, then I'll concede that the hobby is on hard times.  Even then, the cheapest Duesy will still be out of my price range.....

 

Duesys and top quality classics are not the meat and potatoes of the hobby. For that matter neither is the prices paid for the top 1% cars. The metric to be watching is NUMBERS of old cars being put on the road and used or restored and shown. It's kind of meaningless to cite a certain car or class of cars commanding top dollars if there are only a few examples available   and only a few people interested and able to afford them...............Bob

Edited by Bhigdog (see edit history)
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Bob, I didn't cite a certain car or class of cars.  I stated that "most good quality antique cars are as expensive as they've ever been".  I think, in general, that's a true statement.  To your point, you can find isolated cases of certain models going down in value, but OVERALL, prices for GOOD cars are strong.  Prices for project cars are way down, unless a very desirable car.

 

My Duesy comment was just a sidebar, and has little to do with the main topic.

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On this side of the Pond there is a determination by Government to steal a march on the rest of the world with the latest gimmick; be it electric cars, driverless cars, high speed rail, or whatever else they can latch on to as a divergence from the fact that we are all going to hell in a hand cart.  I can see a big problem looming with traditional I.C. engined cars.  We have seen a 17% drop in Diesel car sales last year and a rapidly growing interest in electric or hybrid cars.  There was a small rise in new petrol car sales but overall there was a 5% decline in new car sales.  What has all this got to do with the old car hobby?  Well, in the future, we will see more and more electric cars and the Government is spending vast sums of public money on the infrastructure; eventually there will be charging points everywhere and there is also huge investment going into battery and alternative energy technology.  The public are being brain washed into accepting a world where a polluting vehicle will be as socially unacceptable as smoking.  If you think it can't happen then just look at how attitudes have changed towards smoking since the ban came into effect.  Once the public, who generally are not interested in our old cars, decide we should not be pouting the air, the politicians will bring about an eventual ban on petrol just as they are planning to do with Diesel.  I am not saying the change will be over night but once it starts snowballing there will be no stopping it.  There will not be sufficient demand from us old car die hards to keep the refineries in business and we simply won't be able to get the fuel from a station within a reasonable distance or at a reasonable price.  Then it will disappear altogether to be replaced with electric "quick charge" points.

 

It's not all doom and gloom, however, as  I predict the sale of LPG will be our salvation  because it is seen as clean. In future there could be a thriving trade in D.I.Y. conversion kits.  I sincerely hope LPG will come to our rescue as it does not attract tax and it is only half the price of petrol.  I run my Range Rover on the stuff but you can convert a normally aspirated (carburettor) engine with a D.I.Y.kit.

.

 

Ray.

Edited by R.White (see edit history)

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2 hours ago, trimacar said:

Bob, I didn't cite a certain car or class of cars.  I stated that "most good quality antique cars are as expensive as they've ever been".  I think, in general, that's a true statement.  To your point, you can find isolated cases of certain models going down in value, but OVERALL, prices for GOOD cars are strong.  Prices for project cars are way down, unless a very desirable car.

 

My Duesy comment was just a sidebar, and has little to do with the main topic.

 

My point, Dave, is that the short term price up or down of any segment (good quality) is NOT a valid indicator of the over all or long term health of the hobby. It's very possible that the price of high end classics will remain strong but that does not reflect on the overall long term health of the hobby for the average guy.

If you follow the art market FANTASTIC prices are being paid at auction for a very select segment of artists and their art. But that does not mean the art market has a healthy mass market of participants. Far from it.

I see the same scenario for the old car hobby over the course of 50 to 100 years as the stock of collectables and collectors  dwindle through age and attrition.

Very desirable examples will be treasured  by a very few collectors. Sad but inevitable.

Remember,  I never said the old car hobby will cease to exist, only that it will contract and is not a growth industry.  Looking at the dynamics I feel safe in that prediction.

Please don't kill the messenger..........................Bob

 

 

Edited by Bhigdog (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Bhigdog said:

 

My point, Dave, is that the short term price up or down of any segment (good quality) is NOT a valid indicator of the over all or long term health of the hobby. It's very possible that the price of high end classics will remain strong but that does not reflect on the overall long term health of the hobby for the average guy.

If you follow the art market FANTASTIC prices are being paid at auction for a very select segment of artists and their art. But that does not mean the art market has a healthy mass market of participants. Far from it.

I see the same scenario for the old car hobby over the course of 50 to 100 years as the stock of collectables and collectors  dwindle through age and attrition.

Very desirable examples will be treasured  by a very few collectors. Sad but inevitable.

Remember,  I never said the old car hobby will cease to exist, only that it will contract and is not a growth industry.  Looking at the dynamics I feel safe in that prediction.

Please don't kill the messenger..........................Bob

 

 

 

As I did three pages ago I have to agree with your observations

 

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Yeah, not much more to say. None of us will be here to see what really happens...................Bob

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21 hours ago, R.White said:

On this side of the Pond there is a determination by Government to steal a march on the rest of the world with the latest gimmick; be it electric cars, driverless cars, high speed rail, or whatever else they can latch on to as a divergence from the fact that we are all going to hell in a hand cart.  I can see a big problem looming with traditional I.C. engined cars.  We have seen a 17% drop in Diesel car sales last year and a rapidly growing interest in electric or hybrid cars.  There was a small rise in new petrol car sales but overall there was a 5% decline in new car sales.  What has all this got to do with the old car hobby?  Well, in the future, we will see more and more electric cars and the Government is spending vast sums of public money on the infrastructure; eventually there will be charging points everywhere and there is also huge investment going into battery and alternative energy technology.  The public are being brain washed into accepting a world where a polluting vehicle will be as socially unacceptable as smoking.  If you think it can't happen then just look at how attitudes have changed towards smoking since the ban came into effect.  Once the public, who generally are not interested in our old cars, decide we should not be pouting the air, the politicians will bring about an eventual ban on petrol just as they are planning to do with Diesel.  I am not saying the change will be over night but once it starts snowballing there will be no stopping it.  There will not be sufficient demand from us old car die hards to keep the refineries in business and we simply won't be able to get the fuel from a station within a reasonable distance or at a reasonable price.  Then it will disappear altogether to be replaced with electric "quick charge" points.

 

It's not all doom and gloom, however, as  I predict the sale of LPG will be our salvation  because it is seen as clean. In future there could be a thriving trade in D.I.Y. conversion kits.  I sincerely hope LPG will come to our rescue as it does not attract tax and it is only half the price of petrol.  I run my Range Rover on the stuff but you can convert a normally aspirated (carburettor) engine with a D.I.Y.kit.

.

 

Ray.

Here in Canada much the same is happening. Large sums of tax money is being spent on recharging stations . Substantial Govt. incentive payments to purchasers of electric vehicles.  All for a so far tiny  number of electric vehicle sales.  Canada is a Cold place in winter. Battery power and vehicle range  plummets in cold weather.  No projected ban on Diesel yet , a good chunk of the Canadian public are driving Diesel trucks and SUV's.

 

Greg

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On 1/5/2018 at 4:21 PM, trimacar said:

I think the market is the biggest indicator.  Right now, most good quality antique cars are as expensive as they've ever been, and some are going up in value dramatically.  When all car values fall to about 50% of what they are today, then I'll concede that the hobby is on hard times.  Even then, the cheapest Duesy will still be out of my price range.....

 

There is a good reason why they are going up in value as millionaires are the fastest growing segment in the economic spectrum.

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Coupla thoughts:

""50 year old vintage" car. She felt it was ""under powered , rickety, and unsafe" well my toy is 48 years old, has AC and better resembles "pushed out of shape and hard to steer".

also

" there was a time you could go to any parts store and get anything you needed" well not unless your parents were rich. For me it was "call around for the best price" because every parts house was different. And then there was Gratiot, Moon, Isky, Crane, Crower, and J C Whitney (east of the Mississippi, west it was Warshawsky). Today we have Amazon, Rock Auto, and a horde on eBay with Free Two Day Shipping.

 

Further could not find Jag and MG parts just anywhere, in PBC it was Gulfstream Motors or mail order (sent a check off and a few weeks later something would arrive). Recently I needed an OEM Bosch MAF for a 17 year old Merc. Ordered at 10pm and was on my doorstep at 2pm the next day. No extra charge.

 

These are the good old days.

 

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To my grandfather the “good old days” were the late 30’s to my dad they were the early 50’s. To me the mid to late 60’s. Every gereneration will have their own definition of that time of life. I think of them the way I remember my time in the army - 67 & 68 -  all the good and none of the bad. I’m sure future generations will say something like - “do you remember recharging taking a couple hours and we use too past the time doing......”

 

Have fun

Dave S 

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1 hour ago, SC38DLS said:

To my grandfather the “good old days” were the late 30’s to my dad they were the early 50’s. To me the mid to late 60’s. Every gereneration will have their own definition of that time of life. I think of them the way I remember my time in the army - 67 & 68 -  all the good and none of the bad. I’m sure future generations will say something like - “do you remember recharging taking a couple hours and we use too past the time doing......”

 

Have fun

Dave S 

 

Very true... remember pay phones?? One of my sons never used one, and not sure if had seen anyone ever using one that was not in a movie

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On 1/6/2018 at 7:51 AM, Bhigdog said:

Yeah, not much more to say. None of us will be here to see what really happens...................Bob

Speak for yourself Bob, I'm planning to stick around a while....

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2 hours ago, DAVE A said:

Speak for yourself Bob, I'm planning to stick around a while....

 

You have one of them there DeLorean time machines, Dave?................

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Making one out of a Crosley Supersports....only moves a few seconds.

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