trimacar

A pet peeve - the hobby is dying and old cars are junk

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Received latest issue of Hemmings Motor News yesterday.  You know, the bible of the old car hobby, the source for cars and parts that we've used for years.  I first started subscribing in 1965, and never missed a year.

 

So, last month they ran an editorial that discussed, among other things, the death of the old car hobby, in regard to pre-war cars.  That's pre-World War II, for you young'uns.  Oh wait, there are no young people interested in those cars, according to some.

 

From the letters section, two things, both from same letter, and Sir, if you read this forum, no apologies, I think you're wrong:

 

1-"....all the old folks who owned or enjoyed the hobby of the 1910-1950 era cars are dying off or too old to enjoy them anymore, and want to sell them.  Who is going to buy these cars that are out there?"

 

Now, in the same issue, in the auction reports:

1910 Cadillac - sold, $104,500

1904 Premier - sold, $341,000

1909 Thomas - not sold, not meeting reserve, $580,000

1929 Packard 645 phaeton - sold, $319,000

1923 Pierce sedan - sold, $107,800

 

No one wants them?  Really?  It's not that NO ONE wants them, it's that SOME PEOPLE don't want them, and they thus assume NO ONE wants them.  Their thinking is "I don't like to eat broccoli, so I don't think anyone likes to eat broccoli".  This is flawed logic.  Sure, there are older guys collecting cars, but there are also younger guys coming along who have money and like the old cars.  Maybe not as many as it used to be, but it sure seems to be enough, otherwise prices on good cars would be dropping drastically.  I keep hearing gloom and doom, and "I'm going to wait a few years and buy those cars for pennies on the dollar", but it sure doesn't seem to be coming true.   The market segment that IS dropping in price/value is the project car area.  The cost of restoration these days is so high that projects just won't bring good money.

 

2:  ".....don't like how they [old cars] drive.  Try driving a 1930 Model A on a trip.  No seat belts, hard to start, drives like a truck, and you better know how to double clutch those old cars....not really fun to drive"

 

Seriously?  He states he "sold his Model A", well, sure, I would have sold a worn out, neglected, poor condition Model A too.  Instead of fixing the car, he assumes, as many do, that ALL Model A's, oh wait, let's include ALL pre war cars, are horrible driving vehicles.  Astounding.  The burgers down at my local diner are awful, thus all burgers everywhere must be awful.

 

You guys out there that get it, know how well nicely a maintained or nicely restored car early car drives.  You guys who don't get it, that's fine, just don't eat any burgers, cause if you did find and eat a good burger, then you'd have to change your mind.  Changing minds is very difficult these days.

 

My rant for the day.....

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IMO,  If we keep pushing to only own "perfect" cars we will drive a lot of the younger set out of the old car hobby.  I believe that with a frame of mind that judging is a priority we make it an exclusive hobby where my check book is bigger than yours. To your point of being expensive to restore cars.

 

We tour with the '15 Buick truck, but I am trying to get a couple more vehicles running.  The '08 Buick and the '18 Buick truck so my daughter and her boyfriend can tour with us.  They are ready to come with us on the tours, but we need to get them a vehicle to drive.  And they are in their mid 20's.  They like us do not have the resources at their age any more than we had a lot of disposable money when we were in our 20's with new families, etc.  We are happy to help them out.

 

I believe that we must let anyone that has a vehicle come to our events and make friends with them and offer to help them make their ride what they vision it to be in the future.  We that have been in the hobby for a number of years have contacts and resources that we can share with the younger generation.

Edited by Larry Schramm (see edit history)
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29 minutes ago, Larry Schramm said:

.. If we keep pushing to only own "perfect" cars we will drive a lot of the younger set out of the old car hobby. ...

 

Good point, Larry.  Thankfully, we don't.

Local shows are full of #3 condition cars.

 

Moreover, the AACA offers tours, where driving and sights

are the focus, and no one cars whether your chrome

isn't perfect or your right front seat has a button missing.

 

And the "Driver Participation Class" at national meets

was originally envisioned to be a place where the

youngest hobbyists could show their cars without being

concerned with perfection.  That's still a possibility.

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The major appeal of antiques, any antique, is the nostalgia value to most owners. When they buy or want to own an antique what they really are buying are fond memories. Of course that's a very broad generality but it's generally true.

Of course there are those who may enjoy an antique for it's unique virtues or craftsmanship but the sweet spot for any antique's popularity is right when the market is of the age where folks have disposable income, the time and energy to enjoy it and are nostalgic for their younger days.

Hemmings is more right than wrong ..........Bob

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Bob, I don't entirely agree with you.  I was 13 years old in 1964, and bought a 1931 Chevrolet to restore, because for some inexplicable reason I fell in love with old cars.  I had no fond memories of them, I just liked what I saw.  I don't think the majority of old car owners have fond memories of the car they own, any more than hot rod owners have the same.

 

Yes, I own a 1969 Cutlass, because that was the first new car I bought in 1969, and my memories of that car are great.  I think that's true of a lot of people who now own 50's, 60's, 70's cars, but I don't think it's true of the MAJORITY of antique car owners.

 

To have any memory of a pre-war car, you'd have to have been born in 1935, let's say, so you're 6 years old and develop a memory.  That means you're 83 now.  Yes, there are some collectors out there that are 83 and older.  But if the general rule was that you had to have a memory of a car to collect it, then pre-war cars would be essentially worthless, which is not the case.

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I think pre-war cars are the best styled cars ever produced.  We live in a world wide market for classic cars, interest is not going down IMO. 

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Hemmings made a conscious pivot years ago to try to survive the internet age.   It is a calculated business decision to focus on what they see as a bigger market.  I stopped subscribing for a number of years, but started again a few years back.  When I no longer get 15 minutes of minor enjoyment from it every month I will stop.   I wouldn't let it bother you too much.

Edited by alsancle (see edit history)
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My first car was a1932 Dodge Brothers that I bought at age 19 when I was in college.  I had always loved older cars, the look, the styling and the feel of times past.  I drove that car every day in the Syracuse winters and regretfully sold it to a fraternity brother in 1967.  I found him a few years ago and discovered he still had the car.  I bought it back and am reliving the fond memories once again.

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41 minutes ago, trimacar said:

I was 13 years old...  for some inexplicable reason I fell in love with old cars.

 I had no fond memories of them, I just liked what I saw.  I don't think the majority

of old car owners have fond memories of the car they own, any more than hot rod owners have the same.

 

Well said, Trimacar!  

I got my first antique car soon after graduation.

People who appreciate things see certain good qualities

in them, whether or not they remember those things from youth.

Often, people notice those good qualities long afterward.

 

We certainly wouldn't say that people who study the American

Revolution want to relive the late 1700's, or people who like Victorian

architecture grew up in the 19th century--or that people who

listen to Beethoven and Bach are many centuries old!  But the

good qualities and principles that underlie those things are worth

remembering and preserving.  So it is with cars. 

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57 minutes ago, trimacar said:

Bob, I don't entirely agree with you.  I was 13 years old in 1964, and bought a 1931 Chevrolet to restore, because for some inexplicable reason I fell in love with old cars.  I had no fond memories of them, I just liked what I saw.  I don't think the majority of old car owners have fond memories of the car they own, any more than hot rod owners have the same.

 

To have any memory of a pre-war car, you'd have to have been born in 1935, let's say, so you're 6 years old and develop a memory.  That means you're 83 now.  Yes, there are some collectors out there that are 83 and older.  But if the general rule was that you had to have a memory of a car to collect it, then pre-war cars would be essentially worthless, which is not the case.

 

I agree.  The vehicles that I have and enjoy the most were made about 35 -45 years before I was born.

Edited by Larry Schramm (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Bhigdog said:

The major appeal of antiques, any antique, is the nostalgia value to most owners. When they buy or want to own an antique what they really are buying are fond memories. Of course that's a very broad generality but it's generally true.

Of course there are those who may enjoy an antique for it's unique virtues or craftsmanship but the sweet spot for any antique's popularity is right when the market is of the age where folks have disposable income, the time and energy to enjoy it and are nostalgic for their younger days.

Hemmings is more right than wrong ..........Bob

This is true of many antiques and in part, automobiles also. However there are paintings that have continued to be appreciated, for example, long after the nostalgic age. Some things transcend time. 

 

I believe automobiles are appreciated in a similar way to a fine painting. They are art and a glimpse of history that is too precious to ignore. Young kids play with toy cars, teens equate driving with independence and adults love the prestige of owning unique automobiles. I have meet many in thier 20’s and 30’s who appreciated dad’s cars from the 20’s through 50’s. The 30 Model A got the most attention from all ages, when I hauled it to Oregon, even over the 70 Bronco. There is no shortage of people who wave and give me the ? sign when I drive the 57. 

 

Indeed, the automotive industry is woven into our very core of our being. The love affair we have with cars is still going strong!

 

P. S. I was born long after most of dad’s cars were made, including the 57, but it didn’t stop me from loving them. My nostalgia is, in part, my father’s love of them. Continue to inspire your kids, grandkids and future generations to appreciate them. 

Edited by victorialynn2 (see edit history)
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My first old car, non op at that was a 50 Desoto in 1991.  I was born in 1974, Dad never had old cars when I was growing up but did get the old car traders and liked old cars,  though we probably only went to one general car show a year.  Second one I still have is a 1956 Olds I got in 1992.  Since, I have owned several old cars and rarely look at anything newer than the 1960's and those I usually only look at with a slight passing interest. I have had quite a few 1930's and 1940's cars,  often getting them up and running after they have been neglected for years.  

I have no memories of these older cars as a kid other than a 63 Dodge sedan my grandfather had and gave my Mother because she needed a car for us 5 kids and a couple cars I used to see laying out behind garages around our small town that I would patiently wait to see each day as the school bus went by them.  

The sad part was the town had a clean up initiative one year and hauled all those cars around town to the dump where they ran them over with a bulldozer.  It was a sad day when I saw them in a heap.  Some of them looked like they were in decent shape still. 

I have 4 in the garage right now.  A 32 Ford, 36 Cord, 47 Hudson Pickup, 1940 Ford coupe.  Not one of those cars were any part of my growing up.  My grandfather didn't even like old cars and couldn't understand why I did. 

I still say with all the natural disasters and the opening of the international market, we will eventually see the desirability of a lot of stuff increase.   All they need to do is make a few movies about the good old days (1910-1930) the area that seems to be the most affected,  and those cars will take off again.  People just aren't exposed to them so they don't know much about them.  Remember the days not that long ago, say 20 years, when every car show you went to had 20 Model A's lined up.  Now you see 1 or 2.  As less show up,  people become less aware of what they are.  

You can't desire something you have never seen or heard of. 

I've found lots of great old cars I never knew existed and would now love to own if the stars ever align.  

Edited by auburnseeker (see edit history)
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I've always liked the look of old cars. The body lines, the dash styles, and just the overall look that sets them out from the everyday car. How the interiors are laid out and flows inside the car. Yes, the newer cars are dependable and drive nice, but owning, driving, and sharing a piece of automobile history I think is a special thing. Old cars may not appeal to everyone, but for the ones it does a great joy and satisfaction of owning something that is unique and different is what its all about. Life is short so enjoy what makes you happy and others will see that and want to be apart of it. It takes time, but it always comes back around.

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First of all lets stipulate that we all here are preaching to the choir and have a demonstrated affection for old cars.  We are less than an objective group. Yes, there are those that are drawn to cars (or other objects) that fall outside their age affinity group. Yes, there are those that admire and collect because of styling or engineering factors. Yes, there are those that collect for hope of financial gain. But the largest group of people who collect are not "collectors" per se, but folks that just want to own a more or less common car they relate to. In other words hobbiests.

If that is the case, and I believe it is, the hobby will continue to contract due to both attrition of folks and the hardware itself.

It's awfully hard to imagine a future generation of folks longing to own a 2000 and newer car when they all look alike, are either black, white or grey and are basically rolling computers. In other words devoid of personality. Add to that the likely proliferation of self driving "personal transporters" and buying time/miles rather than hardware and it's pretty easy to see where this is going.

Yes, there will always be a certain cohort of avid collectors/owners but they will be sharing a diminishing pool of resources and will likely be seen by the average person as something of an eccentric.

 Antique cars is not a growth industry...................Bob

 

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1 hour ago, trimacar said:

Bob, I don't entirely agree with you.  I was 13 years old in 1964, and bought a 1931 Chevrolet to restore, because for some inexplicable reason I fell in love with old cars.  I had no fond memories of them, I just liked what I saw.  I don't think the majority of old car owners have fond memories of the car they own, any more than hot rod owners have the same.

 

2

 

I absolutely agree with this. I do not come from a background where ANYONE was even interested in cars, much less old ones and have literally no use for the cars of the 50s , 60s and 70s that, according to this timeworn mantra, should be important to me. All of the cars I am interested in were built before I was born and, for the most part, before my parents were born. I have no explanation for this, nor do I think one is needed.

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I will always own at least one classic/collector/custom car. I think that they are extensions of who I am and my personality. I think you also see the personalities in the designers/builders of the cars when they were made. Any time a person creates something, it is an extension of who they are. Cars make a very load statement about a person. Individuality will keep classic/collector/customs cars alive. You do not want to be the record, or the type writer. And who wants to be painted in the corner or in a box of conformity. People see you coming driving that 37 Cord down the road trimacar.

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Most of the responses here are emotionally driven and no one need explain their reasons for that or why they like or dislike a certain era "antique".

All the views expressed are valid and true for that person at this point in time.

Again, yes there will always be a segment of the hobby that will survive and be appreciated by a group of folks for whatever reason.

But as those folks and the hardware succumb to age and attrition it's hard to make the case for an expanding rather than a contracting old car hobby.

I can't see future generations collecting cars that are virtually all identical and come with a warning sticker on the dash that says "NO OWNER SERVICEABLE  PARTS INSIDE".......................Bob

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24 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

First of all lets stipulate that we all here are preaching to the choir and have a demonstrated affection for old cars.  We are less than an objective group. Yes, there are those that are drawn to cars (or other objects) that fall outside their age affinity group. Yes, there are those that admire and collect because of styling or engineering factors. Yes, there are those that collect for hope of financial gain. But the largest group of people who collect are not "collectors" per se, but folks that just want to own a more or less common car they relate to. In other words hobbiests.

If that is the case, and I believe it is, the hobby will continue to contract due to both attrition of folks and the hardware itself.

It's awfully hard to imagine a future generation of folks longing to own a 2000 and newer car when they all look alike, are either black, white or grey and are basically rolling computers. In other words devoid of personality. Add to that the likely proliferation of self driving "personal transporters" and buying time/miles rather than hardware and it's pretty easy to see where this is going.

Yes, there will always be a certain cohort of avid collectors/owners but they will be sharing a diminishing pool of resources and will likely be seen by the average person as something of an eccentric.

 Antique cars is not a growth industry...................Bob

 

 

I agree with Bob. Collecting is generational, everyone look at their own adult children and see if they have the same desire that we do. I have three sons who grew up around this and only one is interested but not passionate. They don't have time in their busy lives to entertain the commitment.  A perfect example of this is model trains. as collectors age and pass on the collections become liquidated to settle estates and the market gets flooded, the premium condition stuff still commands prices but the lesser stuff is a buyers market. Interest in the Lionels is not really for anyone under 60. 

Change is coming it might not be embraced but one thing is certain it is coming    

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My original exposure of antique cars came from the Disney movie "The Absent Minded Professor" released in 1961. The star, Fred MacMurray  as Professor Brainerd  used a 1915 Model T to hide his invention "FLUBBER". To me it was the most wonderful car I had ever seen. I was 6 years old and I thought all antique cars like this could fly. My father at the time had a 1959 Oldsmobile 98 4 dr hardtop. As his work car he had a Black, 1948 Olds 2 dr, which was now looking out of place in our neighborhood. The oldest car was Mr. Corne's 1946 Desoto. The 1915 T didn't look like anything I had ever seen anywhere in our town. After this exposure an obsession grew to find anything relating to this era of car. I still have the American Heritage set of Picture History Cards 1896-AUTOMOBILES-1936. which my mother purchased at Henry Ford Museum in 1966. A vacation trip to appease their obsessive son.

My gravitation to Buicks came from the fact that my grandfather's first car (as he told me) was a 1927 Buick Country Club Coupe bought as a used car in 1930.

 At our tent at Hershey I fielded many questions about early Buicks from people all much younger than my 62 years. Several were signed up as new BCA members. These people were in their mid 30s. Each had just purchased a teens or 20s Buick.

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Well, I know several guys 30-ish and not only interested but actually making a living within the hobby.  One has a model T and wrenches for Wayne carini, one is two years into his own business (Simko Motors), & one, Alsancle introduced me to at Hershey, is with one of the big auction houses.  All mainly prewar guys.  My point being these are educated guys who are betting on the continued existence of the hobby in such a way as to provide a living.  

 

I think HMM staff are not at all prewar focused and definitely not the ideal folks to be providing any sort of pulse or expertise.  These guys provide filler articles for a classified ad publication...

Edited by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)
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A couple years ago I did a seminar in Philadelphia to mark the 50th anniversary of the Ontelaunee Region.  To research that seminar I read every issue of the region's newsletter the "Tin N Brass".  What I found most interesting in that review was that 50 years ago, the leaders of the region were lamenting the fact that cars were not what they used to be, the young people weren't interested in old cars , etc., ...in short, exactly what we are saying today.   This repeated itself every 10 -15 years.   

       I honestly don't think he hobby is dying.  What is dying, and IS hurting the hobby is the willingness to reach out to others and draw them into our circle.  We all talk about reaching out to kids and get them involved, but there is a big group out there that we seem to ignore.  That is other old car owners that aren't part of any car group or organization.   We need to speak to them and tell them about the fun we are having.   Next time you see a guy with an old car, swallow your fears and walk up to him.  Ask about his car and let him (or her...sorry ladies) talk.  Then ask him if he is part of any organization.  Invite him to join you at your local club meeting. If we all do this the hobby will grow exponentially.  

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The doom and gloom cries of the "dying old car" hobby are nothing new. When I got into this hobby at 18 years old, a nicely restored, tour ready, brass Model T could be purchased for about 5,000.00, nicely restored Model A roadsters were bringing about the same, larger 40-50HP brass cars were well under 50,000.00 and I witnessed a Model J Duesenberg sell for a record price of 100,000.00.

 

People told me when I was a kid that no one would want these prewar cars in a few years.

 

And the people that always cried doom and gloom were the grumpy old men. As I got older, I learned these grumpy old men were the super cheapskates that would never pay a fair price for anything that was good. They never supported or promoted the hobby. They were always lamenting the market because they had a garage full of junk that no one wanted because it was junk when they bought it and it was still junk after sitting for decades. Well, nothing has changed. The cheapskates are still complaining and predicting doom and gloom for everyone. They are still unhappy and still have a garage full of useless junk. They never get out and enjoy their cars because none of their cars run and they are too cheap to fix them properly. Instead of having one or two good, usable cars, they bought lots of unusable junk. They started with junk and ended with junk. Their kids will never be interested in cars because the only thing they ever saw was a garage packed with useless junk that they were forced to clean out upon their father's death and quickly learned that no one wants the crap. 

 

Newer people are always getting into this hobby. I just returned from the famous SoCal HCCA Holiday Motor Excursion in California now in its 60th year.  I began attending this great one day event as a kid and still try to attend every few years. The event is limited to 1932 and earlier cars. The parking lot where the event begins was jammed to near overflow capacity with prewar cars from a one-cylinder Thomas to Pope Hartfords to Silver Ghosts. There were tons to Model Ts and As as well a big Full Classics from Packards to J Duesenberg. I would think there were 100-150 cars present. All ready to tour and enjoy the day. And, you know what, there were a lot of young people driving these cars and even more as passengers and spectators. The parking and all of the tour stops were absolutely packed with spectators of all ages. Every time a hood was opened or a car was cranked, swarms of fascinated people would gather. People will always be fascinated by things that are vintage and as time and money allow, they will join the hobby. 

 

As a dealer, I can tell you the market is strong for prewar cars that are of good quality and realistically priced. I sell every brass Model T and Model A I get in even before I get a chance to advertise them. Brass cars and Full Classics at all price points are always in demand and continue to have a strong following. Even the nickel era cars sell if they are good cars and priced accordingly.

 

The people that still complain about no one wanting these cars are still the same old cheap skates, just a different generation of cheap skates. They are too cheap to fix their cars, they are too cheap to join clubs or attend national tours and meets. They'll die and their tombstones will say "look at me, I'm a dead, grumpy old man and I spent my life complaining and predicting gloom and saving every last penny so my kids can waste it." These people have never been happy about anything in their lives. They did nothing to make the car hobby appealing.

 

If you want to promote this hobby, get out and enjoy your cars. The best promotion this hobby can receive is when people see these great pieces of history driving down the roads. Take the time to explain your car to the crowds that gather around it when you stop for coffee. Put a young family inside your car and drive them around the block. Carry some back issues of your club's magazines with you and give them to admirers. Tell them about the next local car show or tour that will be going on in your city. If you don't get out and do this, you only have yourself to blame. If you keep saying the hobby is doomed, well, then you only have yourself to blame. 

 

I think I am going to drive a cold Model T to lunch today. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by motoringicons (see edit history)
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When we were kids we all could not wait to see the new cars, some dealers had lines around the street. Now we see lines around cell phone stores to be the first to get the new cell phone. It is good to see that there are some younger people interested in our great hobby, I just don't think I see it offsetting the imminent attrition we are about to experience as the last wave of the baby boomers take their final drive.

 

I inherited a massive toy collection 6 years ago from my Father. He recorded the price he paid for everything he bought. I have been liquidating slowly but I am getting about 1/4 of what he paid for it 30 years ago. I kept a few pieces for myself but I don't really have any interest in the toys, most of them were old when I was a kid. Look at the pedal car market as an example how interests and markets shift. I am not talking about investment purposes at all,   However the market is reflective as are all markets of supply and demand driven by quality

 

Hemming's has it own set of problems in this day and age.I had gotten my first subscription in 1979, but have not had a subscription for about 10 years now. I am not the only one who gave it up either. There was a time when you could not even think of restoring a car without a subscription Personally I have not found a need for it, and I have done two AACA National Award winning restorations without it.

 

Club participation on a regional level is an entirely different situation. When I first got married we went to the club picnic which I had done with my parents since I was 10 years old. I had asked my wife if she had a good time, he reply was "it was ok, but I was sitting with your mother and her friends" It just so happened that another couple joined the club a few weeks later that were our age and our wives became very close friends even after they moved 500 miles away. Spousal interest makes a local club a success. My one son who is has a car and in the same club his wife is in the same position that my wife was in. Interest in the cars does not have any age difference for men , most men can talk and find common ground somewhere, women on the other hand....... they either click or they do not.

 

It is not dying but it is changing and will not be way it was for better or worse we will find out 

Edited by John348 (see edit history)
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Well said Guy.  Couple more notes on this from my observation:

 

There is heavy interest in speedster type cars, I think due to both an interest in the era, the ability to do a lot of work at home, and a budget friendly alternative for a brass era car.  An interesting bridge between antiques and hot rods.  Most people I know actively building these are younger. 

 

A year or so back, one of our members, M. Billhymer, started up a fb page for the purposes of providing the under 40 crowd into prewar cars a networking platform.  1,100 members as of today.

 

Lots of youth at Lime Rock vintage races every year.

 

So the interest is out there youu just need to look for it.

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