Best procedure & varnish for wood spoke wheels

[erichill]

I am stripping/sanding the paint from my 1919 Chandler wheels, and want to finish them with a varnish.  Reading threads, and other on-line forums it seems like answers are all across the board with many people not having long-lasting results. I don't want to be reapplying varnish every few years if I can help it. What have you done, and how has it held up? Do you use a wood sealer first?

[edinmass]

On top of all the opinions on how to treat the wood, many people say the cars never came with natural wood finish, and that all were painted when new. I would guess that probably they  painted most of the wheels,but it would be worth your time to find original photos of the same year car when they were new, and decide for yourself. I like natural wood wheels on some cars. 

Edited January 1, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

I have used varnish as a sealer for then to paint the wheels and give a good finish.  Also helps if you ever want to go back to natural wheels.  The paint will not be absorbed into the grain of the wood.

[erichill]

Edinmass,

I agree if I were restoring the car I would repaint the wheel, as the original color is yellow. The body is not original, so there is no point trying to restore to original condition, and I love the look of varnished wood wheels. I am rebuilding it as a tribute to my father who never got around to working on it. I have never worked on anything  this old, so its a learning process.  I started with rebuilding the motor, then worked my way back through the drive train, and now am on to the wheels.  Brakes and steering are next. Eric

[SC38dls]

I had a 49 Ford F3 pickup that I put a blackwalnut wood bed in. I know it’s not the same as your wheels but I used multiple coats on TONG oil. It shines up well and repels water well. You can purchase it at wood shops but be sure you get 100 % Tong oil and not a linseed mix. You will have to reapply occasionally. It doesn’t flake or peel like varnish

[Mark Shaw]

erichill,

The answer to your initial question is Marine Spar Varnish; & no sealer is needed.  You can use multiple coats to get the finish you want.

I suggest you save yourself a lot of time and sandpaper & find someone to sandblast your wood wheels.  If the blast media is relatively soft like greensand or walnut shells, it does a great job very quickly.  Blasting will also expose any punky wood in your wheels; which is very important for safety.

If you find any bad wood at all, just have them re-spoked.  Photo below is a 1912 Buick wheel after being sand blasted.

Edited January 1, 2018 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Marine varnish is very good but on our 42 foot antique wooden Chris Craft we were redoing bright work every two years or so. I’m sure that was a result of the sun in Chicago’s short summers but it is still a lot of work. I think it is easier to sand a flat piece of mahogany than a spoke but maybe the wheels will stand up much better. Knowing the amount of sanding that takes  I was just taking into account the OP not wanting to reapply it every few years. Tong oil was much easier. Probably no good full proof method without painting.  Where are you located? 

Dave S 

Edited January 2, 2018 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[BearsFan315]

A fellow friend on VCCA just did his, and Man do they look good, think he post on here as well 'Chistech'

 

Know he put a lot of time and effort in them, but they look really nice.shoot him a PM and he will respond and gladly answer any questions you may have. as well as post photos of before, during, and after

 

 

[nickelroadster]

The tung oil will give a satin finish that will look good and will be easy to refinish periodically.  Be advised that if you use tung oil you could not come back later and paint the wheels without vigorously re sanding them again.  If you want a nice shine  and longevity you can use something like  a Quick-Poly or Smith sealer(both available from Restoration supply) and use a regular urethane automotive clear coat to topcoat.  Doing this  the finish will last almost indefinitely, especially if the car is only driven periodically.

[erichill]

Thanks for the input everyone. I have a blasting cabinet, and I may try the walnut shells on the remaining two wheels. I had not thought about sealing the wood and then using an automotive clear coat. Will have to look into the in that to make sure all adheres to one another. I will do more research on using 100% Tung oil.  The car will not see a whole lot of use, and will be stored indoors.

Thanks,

Eric

[Restorer32]

A year and a half ago we finished a 1949 Olds Woodie Wagon. We tinted automotive clear to closely replicate the look of varnish. First we sealed all the wood using West System epoxy as a sanding sealer. Two coats, lost of sanding. Applied 3 coats of the tinted clear and the results were outstanding, if I do say so myself. 

[Spinneyhill]

Just a couple of thoughts about dealing with wood. The enemies are water, oxygen and UV. Along with water you will get spores = fungus and bacteria and they will break down the wood. Oxygen will come with the water and feed the micro-organisms as well as oxidise the wood, oils and finishes. UV will break down the finish, esp. polyurethane. I put it on my house windows (interior) and it lasted no more than 2 years even with careful preparation before hand.

 

So you need to exclude water. Plenty of tung oil will do that (don't leave the rag balled up, it will catch fire). You can put coats of tung oil on with turpentine and beeswax for a final finish - we used to do rifle stocks that way, with 1/3 each of linseed, turps and beeswax. The beeswax seals it. But does tung oil slow the ingress of mould etc.? I don't know. And is it UV stable? I don't know.

 

Wooden wheels are never rigid running along the road. They move. So  your coating has to allow for some movement. If the wheels are truly tight, the movement will be minimal. Once any joints open up, only something in the wood will prevent the micro-organisms attacking it.

 

As for the finish, something flexible (to account for the movement) and UV stable is important. Look critically at all products suggested.

[nickelroadster]

I did exactly what Restorer 32 did.  The only problem with the automotive clear coat is you do need some painting skills.  The tung oil finish takes  no special skills.

[erichill]

Spinnyhill, thanks for the very logical approach to dealing with this issue.  I was thinking last night, and wondering if there is reason to not just apply Rustoleum clear enamel? Wouldn't that be the same if I were to just paint them with enamel paint which is the paint one would use if they were not messing with two part automotive urethane paint.

I know I will not be inclined to remove the wheels every few years, and sand and revarnish them, so I think that's out for me. I guess its coming down to tung oil or paint (clear or pigmented)

[SC38dls]

If you know what kind of wood the wheels are made of I would get some and try the different methods. You could then see which you like best. Just a thought 

Dave S 

[Spinneyhill]

I don't know much about automotive paint, but for painting wood, it must be a bit like painting the house. The usual advice in that regard is that grey (some call it silver and say it is beautiful  ) wood is damaged and must be removed - paint won't stick to it and if it does, it just lifts off the body of the item. Sanding is better than blasting because the soft cells are removed by blasting, leaving a damaged porous surface that is easily penetrated by micro-organisms (bacteria and fungal spores). It is like water blasting concrete: the soft fines are removed and the surface is more susceptible to the blackening mould than before you water blasted it.

 

Is that clear enamel UV stable enough for exterior use? Also, if the paint doesn't absorb UV, the wood will discolour under UV under a clear coat over time as it breaks down. All our wood furniture is suffering this where it is in the sun.

 

How about asking a wheel wright what they would do? or a furniture or other type of wood restorer?

 

[46 woodie]

A lot of guys in the National Woodie Club, including myself, use a varnish called Epifanes. It has UV inhibitors and is an excellent  product. I personally do not like using automotive clear on wood, it just looks too "plastic". I happen to like the natural, warm look of varnish.

[erichill]

46 Woodies, thanks for the brans name, I will look into it.

[frank29u]

I used Minwax Helmsman Indoor/Outdoor Spar Urethane Clear Gloss on my spokes.  I did not use a sealer or a stain and brushed on 6 coats, sanding between each as the directions say.  These were done about 15+ years ago and are still in good shape.  It is garaged full time, but it is a driver.  I too have discussed painting them to match the body as original, but friends keep talking me out of it.

[erichill]

Well I am using marine Spar Varnish. Here is first coat applied yesterday. Will sand 220 between coats. Was not looking for perfection, and I only have so much time and patience sanding, but I am pleased with the results. Thank you everyone for your input.  Frank29U your wheels look great, and I can appreciate the amount of work you probably have in each one.

Edited January 7, 2018 by erichill
added a word (see edit history)

[46 woodie]

Sanding is critical between coats with varnish as is temperature, 70 to 75 degrees is perfect. When I started the restoration of my '46 Ford Woodie I read a couple of books on varnishing. One can get overloaded with too much information. 

[frank29u]

Thanks Erichill.  Your wheel looks impressive.  My 4 were done over 3 summers.  Car looked a bit odd for a year.  Think masking the spokes to paint the hub and felloe  was the worst part of this project after stripping.

46 woodie, if you used the old varnish, that would be a challenge compared to the urethane.

[captndan]

Something to consider.  Wood finishing products have drastically changed especially in the marine industry.  The old standbys like natural oils and varnishes have long been replaced by modern technology.  Look at what the big boys who own million dollar yachts use on their bright work.  If you are around a boat yard see what these monsters use.  The down side of all this is many of the best finishes are not made in this country and are very expensive.  How much are your wood wheels worth to you?  Mine will stay the same with a so so paint job because I know what ‘Ship shape and Bristol fashion’ means and costs.

[46 woodie]

True Frank, but I wanted to keep the wood on my '46 Ford Woodie as Henry did it. Coat after coat of varnish with sanding and dust control between each coat teaches one patience, you can not rush it. I'm sure that the urethane would be a lot easier. Over the years I have been to many Woodie and car shows and I think the urethane finish that some put on their station wagons does not look as good as varnish. The varnish takes on a warm glow over the years urethane looks like plastic.

[erichill]

46 Woodie

Quote

The varnish takes on a warm glow over the years urethane looks like plastic.

I agree, and I decided to stick with tried and true. The car will see little use, stored indoors, so its exposure will be limited. I believe I will be happy with my choice.  You said a mouthful when you mentioned teaches patience.  It sure does. The whole project of rebuilding an old car from pieces is a test in patience, and some steps like sanding wheels can't be rushed.

Eric

[Tom M]

Eric,

 

Nice job on your wheels they are coming along nicely.

 

I went the same route for the wheels on my 31 Packard

 31 wooden spokes. They are holding up quit well and still look as I did them yesterday.I

Edited January 9, 2018 by Packin31 (see edit history)

[Durant Mike]

Here's my Durant wheels I finished a couple of years ago. Took them apart, stripped all the old paint off, sanded them lightly and then put 4 coats of Valspar Marine varnish on them.  The grain of the hickory just pops. Came out great.

[Mick in Saratoga]

I once built mahogany boats for a living.  I followed Don Danenberg's suggestion (Don Danenberg Boatworks).   Every piece of wood used should first be treated with a liberal application of Smith's CPES (Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealant).  The primary problem in any wood construction is the changes in humidity wood undergoes.  Once a piece of wood is treated with CPES it's moisture content is nearly impervious to changes in relative humidity.  Before I varnished or otherwise treated a wooden piece for my car, I'd prime it with CPES.  The finish coat will adhere better to a treated piece and the varnish job will last longer.  

[46 woodie]

Mick, how solvent is the Smiths CPES? When I hear epoxy I think of two parts and I wonder if it is thin enough to soak into the wood and especially the end grain. I wish I knew of this product when I restored my '46 Ford Woodie. I would like to start using it when I replace parts if necessary. Where can it be purchased?

[nickelroadster]

Smith's is very thin and will keep soaking in as long as it is supplied.  It also provides a good surface for other kinds of finish to adhere to.  One of it's uses is to repair wood that has some rot as it hardens the soft wood and kills the little organisms that do the damage so it stops and prevents further rot.  A top notch product that is not cheap but a little bit goes a long way.  Restoration supply sells it and You can also get it direct from the manufacturer.

[46 woodie]

Thanks nickel, I need to replace the wood over the driver side rear fender so I think I'm going to pick up a can. I wish I knew about this product when I restored my '46 Woodie.

[chistech]

I too have been doing my 32’ Olds wood wheels. Some of my wheels had been painted at one time and the others still had old varnish on them. Natural finished wheels were a Olds factory option in 32’ and even my painted wheels had varnish underneath. After I stripped the paint off with a chemical strippers, I worked the spokes with a curved cabinet scraper which made easy work of removing all remaining paint and varnish. Dental picks were used to remove paint in any deep grain or spoke end joints. I then used oxalic acid to help remove any iron stains and to help even the color between the 6 wheels. 

 

I do do not like the light or almost white wood lots of guys seem to be going to in recent restorations nor do I like the plastic look of epoxy and clear urethane applications. I decided to use an old wheel formula to deepen the color and help preserve the wood. I used a mixture of clear kerosene, boiled linseed oil, and high quality pine tar. That mixture resulted in a really nice coloring but I soon found out, it requires a fair amount of time to soak in and dry. I had a hard time getting the varnish to dry. The varnish I settled on is Pettits Captains spar varnish and it’s a super nice product. I ended up using some Japan drier in the varnish and lightly wiping down any areas that remained tacky after 48hrs with turpentine. I no longer have a drying problem and I put a coat on all my wheels Dec. 23rd. Left for vacation and came back after the 1st to a super nice finish on all the wheels. I currently have 5 light coats on them and tonight I started sanding them down with 320. I will probably add another 2-3 coats but they will be medium to heavy instead of the thin ones previously done. I will wet sand the last two coats for a super smooth finish. Then the hubs and rims will get painted along with the signature Olds hub sprocket pattern and 1/16” pinstripe. The pictures are prior to my most recent coat on the 23rd. Still 2-3 more coats to come

Edited January 12, 2018 by chistech (see edit history)

[Guest]

Looking great chistech.

[chistech]

Thanks, but you should see then since that last coat. They look at least 50% better than this picture. Using the 320 wet sand paper right now but using it dry. One small strip, 1” x 5” folded in three is lasting about half way around one side of the wheel, basically meaning I’ll use just half a sheet or less to sand each wheel. The 320 is making them so smooth too. They should look really good when done. Should have also mentioned that I’m using cheap foam brushes, throwing it away after doing each coat on the 6 wheels. The foam brush really applies the varnish nicely.

[46 woodie]

chistech, as I originally stated in post 21 that when I refinished my Woodie, I read several books on refinishing with varnish. What I found out was that by reading too much only confused me. One "expert" said the only way to get perfect finishes was to use special squirrel hair brushes imported from China, only $125. Give me a break! I wound up doing the same thing you did and used the foam disposable brushes and got great results. 

[Guest]

I have a set of brushes that my Mothers cousin used in the 20's and 30's to lacquer cars (back when you could by brushing lacquer).  I had used one of them for varnishing and it was very good.  One day I was in a shop that did high end furniture refinishing and lo and behold a lot of the work was done with foam brushes.  I have not used anything but foam brushes ever since.  Of course they do not leave any brush marks.

[erichill]

46 Woodie

Quote

What I found out was that by reading too much only confused me. One "expert" said the only way to get perfect finishes was to use special squirrel hair brushes imported from China, only $125. Give me a break! I wound up doing the same thing you did and used the foam disposable brushes and got great results

Amen to that. Last week I just finally decided that I will continue to get more and more answers and advice. Spar varnish was the common thread, so spar varnish it is. Rather than trying to locate some specific brand I found Rustoleum spar varnish at the hardware store and that is what I am now using.

[chistech]

1 hour ago, erichill said:

46 Woodie

Amen to that. Last week I just finally decided that I will continue to get more and more answers and advice. Spar varnish was the common thread, so spar varnish it is. Rather than trying to locate some specific brand I found Rustoleum spar varnish at the hardware store and that is what I am now using.

I first started with Rustoleum Varnish and found it wouldn't even think of drying. Now, I had issues with the stain underneath causing drying problems, but the Pettit brand, Captains Spar Varnish, was significantly thinner and will to brush out much smoother than the Rustoleum. The Rustoleum was much thicker and kind of "pulled" along the surface almost like maple syrup. I don't know the area you're from but I believe it will require warmer temps and low humidity to dry and solidify enough for easy sanding without gumming up on the sandpaper. Give it a try first and if it gives you any issue, go to a marine supply house and get a high quality spar varnish from them. You can go to my 32' Olds restoration thread here on the forums and read all about my trials and tribulations with my wheels! 

[Spinneyhill]

Does Smiths CPES, being an epoxy, turn yellow and degrade in UV light? i.e. is it UV stable?

[erichill]

Christech, thanks for heads up. I have only done one coat on one wheel so far, then I got sick with the flu and haven't done much works since. As a few people suggested I thinned out the varnish in hopes that it would seep into the wood easier. I am expecting it to take a while between coats to cure as my shop in my basement is not heated and can stay in the high 50- low 60's in the shop this time of the year.  I will let you know how things progress.