1933 Dodge BARN FIND - HARLEAN'S COMEBACK

[Sactownog]

okay... 

 

This is what I am making out from this OD style. 

I drive to 35 mph

I am in 3rd gear and close to flooring the gas peddle. 

the kick switch (Which I have mounted under the gas peddle) is now being pressed down. 

 

Question: 

Do I then pull the cable engaging the OD? 

 

 

[zeke01]

No. The kickdown switch is used to temporarily disable the overdrive and kick you back into non overdrive so you can pass another vehicle or get up a steep grade. To get into overdrive, Push the overdrive cable knob in while the engine is pulling the car. After you get over about 35 to 40 mph, let off the gas. You should feel a small jolt, much like an automatic transmission gear change. That is overdrive. The kickdown switch only comes into play when you want to get out of overdrive temporarily.  Zeke

[JACK M]

The wiring will be a bigger headache than learning how to drive it.

But knowing how to drive it first would be a bonus to the process.

Did I read that you got this tranny from George? Did he supply you with the wiring instructions?

The set up I got from him did not include a kick down but was quite drivable with a dash switch.

It just ads another step in your driving technique.

[Sactownog]

George did add both the kick down button and the wiring directions which I will be installing today. 

 

so the kick down switch does or does not go under the peddle? 

[JACK M]

I guess that would be to your preference.

Under the pedal will keep your hands on the steering wheel.

If the supplied button has that long threaded housing for adjustment I would put it under the pedal.

If its just a surface mount kind of thing then at the dash will work too. (the one he sent me was a three position toggle switch not really a kick down).

If under the pedal you want to adjust it where it presses at the absolute bottom of the pedal travel, so it will only activate when all the way floored.

[Sactownog]

[Sactownog]

This is what I am working with 

[Sactownog]

[zeke01]

I’m afraid that you have wandered far afield of my knowledge. My experience has been with factory derived units. Specially, Borg-Warner units. I will the discussion now. Zeke

[Grimy]

I think @zeke01 is saying that the push button arrangement is what we used to call in the Army a Field Expedient.  I'd do my damnedest to find a proper kickdown switch for an OEM installation, rather than the Joe McGee push button, as it appears that a push of the button both energizes the solenoid and *should* momentarily cut out the ignition, but I can't understand how the push button can limit the ignition interruption to a split second.

 

For a kickdown switch, find suppliers of cars that had the BW OD, such as Willys, Nash etc as well as MoPaR suppliers.

[keithb7]

This is a stock 3 speed tranny with overdrive, correct? The tranny takes a different oil than the OD. The tranny has a synchromesh. A tapered ramp/cone type. Do not use GL-4 or GL-5 gear oil in the tranny. It is too slippery for the synchro to speed match 2 adjoining gears.  You'll get grinding and chirping when shifting and using the synchros. (aka clutch gear) You can find GL-1 oil from Napa or Tractor Supply in the USA. You can also use Red Line MTL, pricey though! Currently I am using  Caterpillar TDTO 30W oil in my 1938 3 speed tranny.  Available at your local Cat dealer. (also available in 50W)

 

These oils mentioned will be just fine in your tranny.  The OD unit is much less picky. It is a planetary gear set. You only lock the sun gear when you engage OD. Then the planetary gears and carrier rotate around the sun gear. No sliding synchros. You could probably put almost any oil in that OD and it would work. There is very little torque on the OD unit.  You can learn a little more about the working of my same tranny, and synchros in a few of my videos here. I just don't have the OD version.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[Sactownog]

So I am trying to wire up the OD unit right now and my question on the directions George Asche sent me show the wires going to the IGNITION COIL and IGNITION SWITCH. 

 

HOWEVER: the directions do not say which side to connect the green and black wire on the Ignition coil or which side to connect the red and black wire on the ignition switch. 

 

Do these connections from the Relay matter or can they be connected to either sides? 

 

EXAMPLE: one side of the ignition is from the power distribution and the other is connected to the coil. 

[Bloo]

Sactowog: As far as I know overdrive kickdown switches have two sets of contacts, and I do not understand how the switch in the pictures could work as a substitute.

 

[JACK M]

 

I see your confusion.

The solenoid has a wire that is marked ign. that goes to the coil, as does the ign. switch. I would give George a call on that.

Also, does this OD not have a governor or a solenoid? There should be some wiring running down to the tranny.

The governor would tell the system how fast you re going so that it will know when its OK to shift.

I know that some of the early ODs did not have the solenoid.

Or is that the other way around?

Did George send more than this schematic? This one doesn't seem to address the wiring to the tranny.

 

[JACK M]

If I had to guess I would think that when that button makes ground it would confuse the governor and hence drop out of overdrive.

I would not attempt to mount that button under the foot feed, its not even close to what these used originally.

[JACK M]

 

The solenoid has a wire that is marked ign. that goes to the coil, as does the ign. switch. I would give George a call on that.

 

I went back and looked at your tranny pics and see that it has what looks like a solenoid on it, Or it could be a governor. I get them confused as they kind of look the same.

Regardless you will need more information about how to wire that unit into the system.

[Bloo]

The diagram JACK M posted earlier has the answers, although it isn't very clear about it. Here it is again.

 

 

There are three circuits, Here is what they are and what they do.

 

1) From the positive battery cable, through the relay contacts, to the terminal on the solenoid that goes to the solenoid coil (not the ignition terminal). This is a big wire. It is to supply current to engage the solenoid when the relay is "ON".

 

2) From "key hot" ignition power (gas gauge in JACK M''s diagram) to the relay coil, out the other side of the relay coil, through the normally closed set of contacts on the kickdown switch, through the shift rail switch,  through the switch contacts in the governor, to ground.

 

For the overdrive solenoid to engage, all the contacts in this circuit need to be closed. So, you are not floored, and the normally closed contacts in the kickdown switch are closed. You are not in reverse, so the shift rail switch is closed. Only the contacts in the governor are open.

 

When you get going fast enough, the contacts in the governor close, kicking the overdrive relay on, The solenoid then engages. You can now have overdrive.

 

When the solenoid engages, it does one more thing. There is a set of switch contacts in the back of the overdrive solenoid from the ignition terminal to ground. The contacts close, grounding the terminal. But, those contacts are part of circuit 3, and we haven't talked about circuit 3 yet.

 

3) CIrcuit 3 goes from the points connection at the distributor (or the negative side of the coil), through the normally open set of contacts in the kickdown switch, through the contacts in the back of the solenoid to ground.

 

You are in overdrive. You are not floored. The contacts in the back of the overdrive solenoid are closed, but the normally open contacts in the kickdown switch are open. Circuit 3 does nothing for the moment.

 

You floor it, opening the normally closed contacts of circuit 2 in the kickdown switch. This drops power to the relay coil, opening the relay points, and that takes power away from the solenoid.

 

You would be out of overdrive now EXCEPT.... There is sideways torque from the planetary gears in the overdrive holding the solenoid so it cannot release.

 

When you floored it, you also closed the normally open contacts of circuit 3 in the kickdown switch. Since you are in overdrive, and the solenoid is in, the contacts in the back of the overdrive solenoid are also closed. So, circuit 3 just shorted the distributor points to ground and killed the ignition. 

 

When the ignition dies, it takes the torque off of the overdrive gears, releasing the solenoid that was hung up by the torque. When the solenoid slaps back, it opens the contacts in the back of the solenoid, opening circuit 3 back up, and the ignition comes back on.

 

It all happens so fast you can't tell what happened, except that you are out of overdrive, until you let the gas off. When you let the gas off, the normally closed contacts in the kickdown switch close again, closing circuit 2 and you can go back into overdrive.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Sactownog]

21 hours ago, keithb7 said:

This is a stock 3 speed tranny with overdrive, correct? The tranny takes a different oil than the OD. The tranny has a synchromesh. A tapered ramp/cone type. Do not use GL-4 or GL-5 gear oil in the tranny. It is too slippery for the synchro to speed match 2 adjoining gears.  You'll get grinding and chirping when shifting and using the synchros. (aka clutch gear) You can find GL-1 oil from Napa or Tractor Supply in the USA. You can also use Red Line MTL, pricey though! Currently I am using  Caterpillar TDTO 30W oil in my 1938 3 speed tranny.  Available at your local Cat dealer. (also available in 50W)

 

These oils mentioned will be just fine in your tranny.  The OD unit is much less picky. It is a planetary gear set. You only lock the sun gear when you engage OD. Then the planetary gears and carrier rotate around the sun gear. No sliding synchros. You could probably put almost any oil in that OD and it would work. There is very little torque on the OD unit.  You can learn a little more about the working of my same tranny, and synchros in a few of my videos here. I just don't have the OD version.

 

 

 

 

 

i put in napa 90W GL1 Mineral oil. 

[Sactownog]

10 hours ago, JACK M said:

 

The solenoid has a wire that is marked ign. that goes to the coil, as does the ign. switch. I would give George a call on that.

 

I went back and looked at your tranny pics and see that it has what looks like a solenoid on it, Or it could be a governor. I get them confused as they kind of look the same.

Regardless you will need more information about how to wire that unit into the system.

yeah, I called him today. he does not remember. 

[Taylormade]

Wow.  I’ve been following this thread with interest.  Kind of glad I left my 32 stock.  I have enough problems restoring the original drivetrain without dealing with this stuff!  I hope you get things sorted out.

[JACK M]

I think I solved this.

I was confused by the drawing of the solenoid.

I suspect that the solenoid (by the way, the solenoid is that can on the side of the tranny) will be marked with the "sw" and the "ign" as shown in the drawing. 

Should be stamped on the housing near the tabs. So your red and black wires in that harness start at the tranny.

As for the wires to the coil, since the relay green wire is marked "ign" it suggests that it would come on with the ignition.

The black wire from the solenoid to the coil has me confused but I am guessing that it grounds the points side of the coil.

The yellow wire is self explanatory, It simply makes a ground when you push it.

I suspect that the kick down button must ground out the points side of the coil and release the solenoid at the same time.

So you would only push that button for a very short time.

I think as you run these wires that harness will fall into place quite nicely.

Again, this is where I would start. George is the guy on this overdrive stuff so I will assume that his drawing is correct.

Good luck.

[JACK M]

Put that button somewhere that it is easily reached, NOT under the pedal.

[JACK M]

Another thought.

Since this tranny does not have a governor (most do) it will probably go into over drive at any speed and stay locked in.

So you probably will have to take it out of overdrive for city driving.

This is because if it does indeed lock itself in your low gear will be to high to pull away from a stop without a bunch of clutch slipping.

It could be that all you need to do is hit that kick down at the stop signs I don't know. But the direct drive would be better suited for city driving anyway.

So, overdrive out on the highway.

You will learn the techniques once to get it all hooked up and working.

[Sactownog]

spoke to George, he was confused on what I was talking about. so I send pictures of what he sent to his family and they are sending me better more in depth directions that will hopefully explain it all. 

 

[Sactownog]

WELP! not sure how the F this happened. but after getting everything all buttoned up. I started the car, put it in reverse and it went forward, then I tried for 1st gear and it did backed up. 

 

I then tried to put it in 2nd and 3rd just to make sure the car will edge forward and the car went backwards again! I have no idea how the hell this could happen and the only thought I have is that the transmission is put together wrong.

 

not sure there is anything the rear end can do to make the car go forward and backwards. 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Sactownog (see edit history)

[Sactownog]

just spoke to George Asche, I told him I have forward left gear = forward motion on the car and down left = reverse, up right = reverse, and down right = reverse. 

 

HE SAID IT SOUNDS LIKE I PUT THE REAR END IN UPSIDE DOWN.

 

But that makes no sense considering the rear end is one large unit with the nose being the only removable part.

 

the axle housing has holes that tell me the brake lines are mounted to the top of the axle so I know the rear end is in correctly, but does that mean the nose of the rear end could be on wrong or the gears in the rear end are backwards? 

 

 

 

[Sactownog]

OK, well looking at pictures of the rear end before and after. yes, the shop that put the rear end together did in fact put the pumpkin in upside down. FML

I was supposed to get the exhaust done tomorrow but I guess I will have to have the car towed to Oceanside Drive line in Oceanside, CA to have them flip the pumpkin so that the car will drive forward. 

 

what a dumb mistake. 

[Taylormade]

Man, if anything can go wrong on your car, it will!

[Sactownog]

10 minutes ago, Taylormade said:

Man, if anything can go wrong on your car, it will!

 

I am telling you, this car is cursed. once its done I am never touching it again. haha FML 

[JACK M]

I have never heard of a pumkin that even could be installed upside down.

But what do I know.

 

That shop in Oceanside should reimburse your tow and fix it while they buy you a lunch.

[keiser31]

2 hours ago, JACK M said:

I have never heard of a pumkin that even could be installed upside down.

But what do I know.

 

That shop in Oceanside should reimburse your tow and fix it while they buy you a lunch.

I had to replace the rear pumpkin in my 1936 Dodge Brothers touring sedan once. I installed it upside down by mistake. I tried to back it out of the garage and it went forward and into the garage wall. My Dad said, "REVERSE....put it in REVERSE" I said I did and he started laughing his butt off. He knew what I had done. I had three reverse gears and one forward gear. YES....they CAN be put in upside down.

Edited August 3, 2020 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[Sactownog]

42 minutes ago, keiser31 said:

I had to replace the rear pumpkin in my 1936 Dodge Brothers touring sedan once. I installed it upside down by mistake. I tried to back it out of the garage and it went forward and into the garage wall. My Dad said, "REVERSE....put it in REVERSE" I said I did and he started laughing his butt off. He knew what I had done. I had three reverse gears and one forward gear. YES....they CAN be put in upside down.

1) the fact that George, your self, and others have said that it can be put in upside down and have stories like this give me confidence that its just a mistake that needs to be adjusted. 

2) the fact that the car went forward (while in reverse) and backwards (while in forward gears) gives me hope that the rest of the drive train works and should be able to drive well once its all sorted out. 

[Sactownog]

So I took the car to get the Exhaust done. it looks perfect. however then I decided to drive the car home. 

 

well it did not work out smooth by any means. 

 

I left the Muffler shop and instantly realized my transmission "purchased by George Asche" was not going into 2nd or 3rd. 

 

I tried to put the trans in O/D and the trans shifted a bit better. (I have not wired it yet) so it should have ran like a conventional 3spd. 

 

then the engine kept loosing power. 

 

end of the story, I made it home while driving side streets and back roads in 1st and sometimes 2nd gear. 

 

I think I am done trying with this (cursed car).

 

I am going to take it to a shop that specializes in transmissions and engine tuning to get the car dialed in. 

 

seriously I was ready to sell this Fking car when I got home. 

 

anyway, stay tuned for the next post about this (Cursed Car) 

 

maybe one day I will get this car squard away. but today. I hate this car. 

[Mattml430]

Sorry to hear that, it is frustrating when that sort of thing happens. You’ll get on top of it , you’ve come this far you’ll get it. 
I had grief with my 27 for twelve months. It would run perfectly and then just start missing and carrying on. I put a brand new carbi on it and did all sorts of things. Valve , timing, leads and plugs. It ended up being a dry solder joint in a wire going to the electronic ignition I put in it to make it run smoother. So much for that idea Hahahaha, drove me made for twelve months. It’s fixed now and runs absolutely beautifully because it’s been tuned to an inch of its life. 
stick with It , luck will come your way. 👍👍

[keiser31]

Don't despair. It will get there. Sometimes you just have to take a break and stand back from it for a short time to sort it out. Hang in there, buddy! I wish I was down there to help you.

[Grimy]

There's a lot of that going around:  Matt Harwood's thread on "The Car Which Shall Not Be Named," for example.  And I'm going crazy on the lady friend's 1969 VW squareback on a no-start--with key on, engine off, low tension spark everywhere it's supposed to be, grounds where they're supposed to be, no high tension spark when cranked.

[JACK M]

Hang in there Sac. The good side, It got you home !!!

 

I am dealing with a vibration issue right now that has been haunting me for a few years.

I'll get it, but I hope sooner than later.

[Ian_Greenlaw]

If it makes you feel better, I actually put mine in upside down. For the life of me I couldn’t figure out why when I rotated the tail shaft the rear wheels were going backward. I thought it would only go in one way. Pulled it apart and reassembled and everything worked as it should. That was a bit of a trap.....but I’ll never admit I did it....ha

[Sactownog]

Thanks guys. 

 

Yeah, I am using my 4th tow on this car in 3 days to get it to a shop in Escondido called Trans Masters. 

 

they say they know the type of project I am working on. so I am going to give them a shot. 

will have them do the following and hope its not going to cost me an arm and leg. 

 

-figure out Transmission shifting issue

-adjust clutch or clutch peddle

-tune engine 

 

[JACK M]

Wire up you overdrive?