1933 Dodge BARN FIND - HARLEAN'S COMEBACK

[keiser31]

Don't forget to replace the water distribution tube.

Edited August 24, 2019 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[Sactownog]

1 hour ago, keiser31 said:

Don't forget to replace the water distribution tube.

i actually was just messing with it in the block. talk about a weird piece to pull out of the engine block.

[keiser31]

Did it come out in one piece or sections?

[Spinneyhill]

Just for interest, what is the clutch bearing number? My roundabout way came up with Timken 1505.

[Sactownog]

here is the bearing number for throw out bearing. 

[Spinneyhill]

19 hours ago, Sactownog said:

here is the bearing number for throw out bearing.

Thanks. I was thinking of the new one! LoL.

[Sactownog]

oh the things you find when you crack open an old engine. 

 

last night in Engine Building class, I got to class early to take off the head of the 230 engine. the cylinder's look good and smooth. the wall's are not damaged in any way. the valves however have an interesting look. 

 

most of the valves are smooth with somewhat of a dome and from first glance seem ok. they will all be getting replaced anyway. 

 

however, three of the valves seem to have more of an inverted cone or center pushed in type of valve. 

 

My class instructor seems to think that maybe a couple of the valves were burnt and replaced with another type of valve. 

 

the inside of the head looks good also, I plan to deck that a .40 and deck the top of the block along with honing and probably will keep the piston's to factory spec. 

 

NOTE: IF ANYONE HAS DODGE 230 ENGINE SPEC'S I WOULD GREATLY APPRECIATE IT.  enjoy pictures and build pics. 

[Sactownog]

[JACK M]

If you do a lot of decking it will increase the compression.

However, if it were me I would get some modeling clay and put some on top of a few valves to make sure there is clearance to go .040 on the head plus decking the block.

You should be able to find engine specs in a Motors manual.

If you don't have one of those let me know and I will try and get that info for you. 

One of the things I keep in mind for any street build is that stock works best.

I break that rule often, but if you start to go to radical the drivability comes into play.

[Sactownog]

2 hours ago, JACK M said:

If you do a lot of decking it will increase the compression.

However, if it were me I would get some modeling clay and put some on top of a few valves to make sure there is clearance to go .040 on the head plus decking the block.

You should be able to find engine specs in a Motors manual.

If you don't have one of those let me know and I will try and get that info for you. 

One of the things I keep in mind for any street build is that stock works best.

I break that rule often, but if you start to go to radical the drivability comes into play.

After pulling the head and seeing the size of the walls between each piston. I am not really wanting to make the wall's thinner for a larger piston. 

 

also, I am really wanting to keep this engine conservative, was thinking cam and bore, but now am leaning towards basic clean and rebuild with thoughts of a cam, but that is even iffy. 

[JACK M]

That guy on here that built his own head increased his compression considerably but doesn't mention a cam.

Says he has a lot more performance.

Wish I had his talent.

 

 

[Sactownog]

interesting. I plan to call George Asche and ask him about decking the head and block to see what kind of compression I can expect with a cam. 

[JACK M]

well, I guess I was saying that compression would be of some help with performance.

A cam wont affect the compression.

Could make for performance if you don't go to radical.

I would call  one of the custom cam builders for that info.

A custom cam can do a lot of different things, if the guy doing the grinding is experienced with your engine.

He will probably want to know your final compression ratio, RPMs you will be driving at, weight of the car, tire size, carb, exhaust, etc.

You should consider going to two carbs and split exhaust to compliment the compression and a cam.

The engine needs to breath when we start doing upgrades.

Edited August 29, 2019 by JACK M (see edit history)

[Sactownog]

update: 8/29/19 - just got the re vulcanized engine, bell housing, transmission mounts back from THEN AND NOW  http://www.then-now-auto.com/

 

They look great, and even have the original part number with "DP" on the bushings.

 

Great work and I would highly recommend them. 

 

 

 

 

[Sactownog]

On a side note, I figure it was time to upgrade from the small 2009 Toyota Tacoma to a 2018 Dodge 1500 5.7L Hemi to tow Harlean around from show to show. 

[Sactownog]

On a side note, I figure it was time to upgrade from the small 2009 Toyota Tacoma to a 2018 Dodge 1500 5.7L Hemi to tow Harlean around from show to show. 

[Sactownog]

NEED HELP! 

 

Anyone know where I can find engine spec's for a 1953 Dodge 230 flat head 6 engine? I have most of the engine torn apart and really need to find these numbers. 

 

 

[Spinneyhill]

MoToR's Manual 1951 shows the 230.2 cu.in. engine starting in 1942 and being the same right through to 1950, with a compression increase to 7.0:1 in 1949. classiccardatabase.com shows these numbers or 1953. The following is for 1950, which should be enough to go on with.

 

1949-50 the spark plug gap increased from .025" to 0.035". Points 0.020". Cam angle 38^o. Ign. timing mark at TDC on the vibration damper. Intake 0.008", exhaust valve 0.010" hot.

 

For 41-50, all engines,

Cam end play 0.002-0.006", cam brg clearance 0.001-0.003".

Con. rod brgs 2.0615-2.0625", clearance 0.0005-0.0015", rod end play 0.006-0.011". Rod bolt tension 45-50 lb.ft.

Main brgs dia. 2.499-2.500", clearance 0.0005-0.0015", crank end play 0.003-0.007", mains bolt tension 75-80 lb.ft.

 

49-50 valve tappet clearance 0.008 in & 0.010"ex. hot, running. For timing = cold, 0.014 & 0.014". Intake opens 8^o BTDC, exhaust closes 7^o ATDC. Valve seat angles 45^o. Min. valve spring pressure 40 lb @ 1.75" length. Valve stem clearance 0.001-0.003" in., 0.002-0.004" exhaust.

 

Pistons remove top. Top land piston clearance 0.028", top of skirt (0.75" from bottom) 0.0008". Fitting pistons with spring scale, shim thickness to use 0.002", pounds pull on scale 5  to 7. Ring end gaps 0.007 on compression and oil rings. Measure clearance at tightest portion of ring travel. Clearance betw. ring and groove 0.0025-0.004" for top compression ring, 0.002-0.0035" for 2nd compression ring, 0.001-0.0025" for oil control rings. Piston pins are floating type, retained by snap rings in piston bosses and should be a thumb push fit in piston and rod but with piston heated.

 

Oil pressure 45 psi at 45 mph. Cylinder head torque 65-70 lb. ft.

 

MoToR's Manual, available at https://archive.org/details/MotorsAutoRepairManual15thEdition1935Through1952OCR821Pages/page/n503

gives info for 1952 engine. The above has been edited to reflect that information. Changes were minor.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Sactownog]

5 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

MoToR's Manual 1951 shows the 230.2 cu.in. engine starting in 1942 and being the same right through to 1950, with a compression increase to 7.0:1 in 1949. classiccardatabase.com shows these numbers or 1953. The following is for 1950, which should be enough to go on with.

 

1949-50 the spark plug gap increased from .025" to 0.035". Points 0.020". Cam angle 38^o. Ign. timing mark at TDC on the vibration damper. Intake 0.008", exhaust valve 0.010" hot.

 

For 41-50, all engines,

Cam end play 0.002-0.006", cam brg clearance 0.001-0.003".

Con. rod brgs 2.0615-2.0625", clearance 0.0005-0.0015", rod end play 0.006-0.011". Rod bolt tension 45-50 lb.ft.

Main brgs dia. 2.499-2.500", clearance 0.0005-0.0015", crank end play 0.003-0.007", mains bolt tension 75-80 lb.ft.

 

49-50 valve tappet clearance 0.008 in & 0.010"ex. hot, running. For timing = cold, 0.014 & 0.014". Intake opens 8^o BTDC, exhaust closes 7^o ATDC. Valve seat angles 45^o. Min. valve spring pressure 40 lb @ 1.75" length. Valve stem clearance 0.001-0.003" in., 0.002-0.004" exhaust.

 

Pistons remove top. Top land piston clearance 0.028", top of skirt (0.75" from bottom) 0.0008". Fitting pistons with spring scale, shim thickness to use 0.002", pounds pull on scale 5  to 7. Ring end gaps 0.007 on compression and oil rings. Measure clearance at tightest portion of ring travel. Clearance betw. ring and groove 0.0025-0.004" for top compression ring, 0.002-0.0035" for 2nd compression ring, 0.001-0.0025" for oil control rings. Piston pins are floating type, retained by snap rings in piston bosses and should be a thumb push fit in piston and rod but with piston heated.

 

Oil pressure 45 psi at 45 mph. Cylinder head torque 65-70 lb. ft.

 

MoToR's Manual, available at https://archive.org/details/MotorsAutoRepairManual15thEdition1935Through1952OCR821Pages/page/n503

gives info for 1952 engine. The above has been edited to reflect that information. Changes were minor.

any chance you know where I can get the 1953 engine spec? I agree and believe you that the changes were maybe minor. but if there is a change that happened, I will need those spec's.

[keiser31]

10 hours ago, Sactownog said:

NEED HELP! 

 

Anyone know where I can find engine spec's for a 1953 Dodge 230 flat head 6 engine? I have most of the engine torn apart and really need to find these numbers. 

 

 

Do you have a shop manual for the 1953 engine? That is the best place to start.

[Sactownog]

24 minutes ago, keiser31 said:

Do you have a shop manual for the 1953 engine? That is the best place to start.

I need one. I cant seem to find one. 

[keiser31]

Try Irv Bishko Books.

http://www.autobooksbishko.com/

[keiser31]

http://www.autobooksbishko.com/search.cgi?year=1953&make=Dodge&category=Shop+Manual

[Sactownog]

I have realized my mistake, I need to search for a 1953 Dodge Comet that has the 230 engine. 

thank you for the link's Keiser31. 

 

also thank you Spineyhill for the info, very helpful. 

 

hopefully I can get this handled. 

[keiser31]

43 minutes ago, Sactownog said:

I have realized my mistake, I need to search for a 1953 Dodge Comet that has the 230 engine. 

thank you for the link's Keiser31. 

 

also thank you Spineyhill for the info, very helpful. 

 

hopefully I can get this handled. 

That would be Coronet, not Comet.

[Sactownog]

OK, figured back on track. www.oldmoparts.com has a shop manual for 53 dodge that I will be buying for $70. 

found out the engine block is out of a car, not a truck. so that helps. 

 

update on engine build plan: originally I was going to update block with new larger cam and bore cylinders. at this time I believe I will just do the basic refresh rebuild and put engine back in the car. 

 

no need to dump a ton of cash into a flat 6 that wont make crazy power. time to get car back together and running again. so stock and easy is better for me at this time. 

[Spinneyhill]

If you go to that archive.org link I gave above, back out of MoToR and look a few pages further down, you will find a National Service Data book for 1946-1957.1952-53 six are included together.

 

Dodge general engine overhaul data starts at p. 300. Specific 1952-53 data starts at p.320.

https://ia903004.us.archive.org/10/items/NationalServiceData1946Through1957OCR2910Pages/National Service Data - 1946 through 1957 - OCR - 2910 pages.pdf

Edited September 5, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Sactownog]

rebuilt / refurbished throw out bearing, clutch, flywheel, 

[Sactownog]

[Sactownog]

[Sactownog]

[keiser31]

Purrrrty!

[Sactownog]

2 minutes ago, keiser31 said:

Purrrrty!

YES, these new parts coming back are very sexy. 

[keiser31]

Reminds me of when I did my coupe clutch....

[Sactownog]

update on engine tear down. 

 

I took out all the valve springs and valves, got the engine turned over and the oil pan/oil screen & tube off. making good progress with the time given in class at night school. 

 

goal on Wednesday night is to remove piston's, rod's, crank, and get the front timing chain off. 

 

thought the engine tear down was going to be a lot harder than it has been, but its coming apart nicely. the sludge inside is going to be great to get cleaned out. 

 

also, after many oil changes on the vehicle, somehow sludge has built back up on the bottom of the oil pan. hopefully this will not happen after the rebuild. 

 

this leads me to ask, what oil do you all run when you rebuild your engine? I was always told to use 30 weight non - detergent. 

 

 

[Sactownog]

[Spinneyhill]

6 hours ago, Sactownog said:

I was always told to use 30 weight non - detergent.

which is the very best way to wear the engine out quickly and fill it with sludge. Everything promoters of that cheap oil think they know about it is wrong.

 

After the engine is run in, you will minimise wear if you use a 5W or 10W-30 full synthetic oil. All synthetic oils are better at minimising wear than ANY mineral oil. With a synthetic, you probably don't need to worry about zinc for the flat tappets, but if you did want to, use a CI-4 (or CJ-4) rated diesel oil. These oils have more zinc in them than oils rated for petrol engines with catalytic converters etc. If you search these fora you will find many, many threads on what oil to use.

 

So where does sludge come from? Oil without additives, = so-called non-detergent oil, oxidises quickly in use. Oxidation causes it to thicken and turn to sludge. Your owner's instruction book probably recommends oil changes at short mileage intervals compared to today: sludge and rapid breakdown of the oil was the reason.

 

All the muck in the oil, mostly combustion products, is dropped where it lies when the engine stops with no-additive oil, including inside the crankshaft, inside the main oil way to the timing gears, in the ring grooves, inside the chain links on the timing chain and so on. It is not picked up on the next startup. Over time, lubrication is reduced with reducing oil flow as the passages become blocked. With modern oil that muck comes out at change time and the passageways stay fairly clear. Sludge buildup in the sump is minimal.

[Sactownog]

so when this engine is rebuilt, you are suggesting I run 10w-30 in it? 

35 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said:

which is the very best way to wear the engine out quickly and fill it with sludge. Everything promoters of that cheap oil think they know about it is wrong.

 

After the engine is run in, you will minimise wear if you use a 5W or 10W-30 full synthetic oil. All synthetic oils are better at minimising wear than ANY mineral oil. With a synthetic, you probably don't need to worry about zinc for the flat tappets, but if you did want to, use a CI-4 (or CJ-4) rated diesel oil. These oils have more zinc in them than oils rated for petrol engines with catalytic converters etc. If you search these fora you will find many, many threads on what oil to use.

 

So where does sludge come from? Oil without additives, = so-called non-detergent oil, oxidises quickly in use. Oxidation causes it to thicken and turn to sludge. Your owner's instruction book probably recommends oil changes at short mileage intervals compared to today: sludge and rapid breakdown of the oil was the reason.

 

All the muck in the oil, mostly combustion products, is dropped where it lies when the engine stops with no-additive oil, including inside the crankshaft, inside the main oil way to the timing gears, in the ring grooves, inside the chain links on the timing chain and so on. It is not picked up on the next startup. Over time, lubrication is reduced with reducing oil flow as the passages become blocked. With modern oil that muck comes out at change time and the passageways stay fairly clear. Sludge buildup in the sump is minimal.

 

[StillOutThere]

The technology of lubrication  has changed EXPONENTIALLY and more over the last 9 decades.   For some reason the hobby in general will not accept that change and wants to use what was printed in their owner's manual 90 years ago.   WELCOME TO THE 21ST CENTURY which is where you will be using your car.

[Sactownog]

2 minutes ago, StillOutThere said:

The technology of lubrication  has changed EXPONENTIALLY and more over the last 9 decades.   For some reason the hobby in general will not accept that change and wants to use what was printed in their owner's manual 90 years ago.   WELCOME TO THE 21ST CENTURY which is where you will be using your car.

yeah, that ISH is irritating. the purists seem to take to much to heart from those original books. I had a guy tell me to always use the cork gaskets because that is what the engine is made to use. I was like, what! alright dude. however, I don't think they offer rubber gaskets for the 230 dodge engines. 

but ya, the updates would be good to know such as OIL to use.