Sleeving wheel cylinder

[VW4X4]

Warning: anyone using stainless steel to sleeve wheel cylinder!

  One major issue I have is dis-similar metals.  My wheel cylinders were all sleeved with stainless steel (SS).  The pistons in them are  all Aluminum (AL).  Turns out if you don't use the vehicle much, within a few months the wheel cylinders are stuck, because of corrosion.  This is  a major issue between raw AL and SS. This is exactly why a lot more stainless is not used in modern vehicles today.   I'm trying to find a simple solution for this.   The work was done by

Applied Hydraulics. I wish Applied Hydraulics would have warned me about this .   They did a good job , and at very reasonable prices but missed the boat on this problem.   Anyone have  a simple  solution to my AL/SS corrosion problem? 

 

[keiser31]

Yes, this has been brought up before. That would be "Apple Hydraulics". Wish I had the answer other than driving the vehicle more often.

[VW4X4]

28 minutes ago, keiser31 said:

Ok, the place I had mine done is now called:  http://brakeandequipment.com/

         Use to be Allied Hydraulic......  Not the same place....

 

Yes, this has been brought up before. That would be "Apple Hydraulics". Wish I had the answer other than driving the vehicle more often.

 

[joe_padavano]

The problem here is that you are trading regular corrosion and pitting for galvanic corrosion.  Cast iron and aluminum are relatively compatible from a galvanic standpoint, but obviously the cast iron cylinder rusts and pits easily from any moisture in the brake fluid.  Stainless and aluminum are more reactive (specifically, the stainless increases the galvanic corrosion in the aluminum) but the stainless sleeve won't rust and pit like the cast iron.  Unfortunately, brass sleeves with aluminum pistons are even worse from a galvanic potential. Of course, the solution is to ensure there is no moisture in the brake fluid. Naturally this is difficult, especially with DOT3 fluid.

 

In the aeospace world we have a similar problem when we use stainless fasteners in aluminum parts. In that case, we typically use fasteners that have an aluminum coating on them. This unfortunately won't work for brake cylinder sleeves.

[VW4X4]

3 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

Joe,   Thank for the info.  I'm slowly convincing myself that the only good solution is  making new pistons out of some other material.  If I use stainless, I think I might run the risk of gaulding. If I use plain CR steel, I could have the new piston plated with  a yellow  Iridite  or a znic Chromate treatment.   Not sure what would be best here, but one thing for sure this is, its not going to be cheap or easy, and I for like to find someone who knows more about this than I do in order not be wasting any more money.

 

 

The problem here is that you are trading regular corrosion and pitting for galvanic corrosion.  Cast iron and aluminum are relatively compatible from a galvanic standpoint, but obviously the cast iron cylinder rusts and pits easily from any moisture in the brake fluid.  Stainless and aluminum are more reactive (specifically, the stainless increases the galvanic corrosion in the aluminum) but the stainless sleeve won't rust and pit like the cast iron.  Unfortunately, brass sleeves with aluminum pistons are even worse from a galvanic potential. Of course, the solution is to ensure there is no moisture in the brake fluid. Naturally this is difficult, especially with DOT3 fluid.

 

In the aeospace world we have a similar problem when we use stainless fasteners in aluminum parts. In that case, we typically use fasteners that have an aluminum coating on them. This unfortunately won't work for brake cylinder sleeves.

 

[Frank DuVal]

Let me guess, you did not fill the fresh system with DOT5?

 

I have not seen this effect on my cars with SS sleeves, aluminum pistons and DOT 5. Have others noticed this?

[keiser31]

1 hour ago, VW4X4 said:

 

Gotcha. My bad.

[PFitz]

Did you use brake assembly lube ?

 

I've always had Apple sleeve with brass. However, the same stuck pistons can happen with brass sleeved cylinders. It just takes longer. And to an even slower extent, the aluminum can corrode and stick to the  cast iron bores of new wheel cylinders.

 

The way to prevent that is first coating the clean bores and pistons with brake assembly lube. I use EIS brand.  Whatever is in it prevents corrosion of the aluminum pistons.   Since I learned of that many years ago,  not one has seized since.

 

BTW, brake assembly lube is not the same lube designed for the rubber parts, which won't prevent piston corrosion. However, brake assembly lube  can be used on the rubber parts without harm. 

 

And yes, you should first use assembly lube even with DOT 5.

 

Paul

Edited December 24, 2017 by PFitz (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

My experience is with brass sleeves. The aluminium corrodes because of the proximity of the brass, which contains copper. It is galvanic corrosion. It still occurs with the original cast cylinders, but much more slowly because cast iron is further up the galvanic series than brass and stainless steel. Some SS is above brass in the galvanic series, but most is below it. So whether SS sleeves are worse than Brass depends on which type was used for the sleeve.

 

I always assemble with rubber grease. They still corrode over a few months if I don't drive it. It is the presence of oxygen and an electrolyte (water) that promotes the corrosion so I suppose I am being too stingy on the grease!

 

DOT 4 brake fluid is less hydroscopic than DOT 3. DOT 5.1 is less hydroscopic than DOT 4. DOT 5 (silicon) is not hydroscopic at all and is not compatible with DOT 3, 4 or 5.1.

[PFitz]

The rubber grease is just for preserving the rubber parts of a brake system, but does not prevent the aluminum corrosion that brake assembly lubes do prevent.

 

If you want to use just one, then use the assembly lube for pistons, bores, and the rubber parts.

 

EIS, Permatex, and Bendix each make a brake assembly lube that at least one of those brands you can get at most autoparts stores, or online suppliers.

 

Paul

[Bhigdog]

My 69 Vette calipers were sleeved with SS at least 25 years ago. Still has the same DOT 5 fluid in the system from then. Never a problem. Dot 3 is spawn of the devil.................Bob

[Spinneyhill]

6 hours ago, PFitz said:

EIS, Permatex, and Bendix each make a brake assembly lube that at least one of those brands you can get at most autoparts stores, or online suppliers.

Thanks Paul. I was working with advice given to me many years ago by someone who I cannot remember. Clearly there are (and probably were way back then) better alternatives.

[Curti]

I liken DOT-3 to lacquer paint and leather seals ; yesterdays technology.     I use Brake and Equipment Warehouse in Minneapolis MN. They are keenly aware of the different types of stainless steel.

[joe_padavano]

DOT 5 is not hygroscopic the way DOT 3 is and thus moisture is not retained, so galvanic corrosion is less likely.

[Vila]

VW4X4.

Did you tell them the pistons were aluminum before having the SS sleeving done or did you just tell them to sleeve them with stainless steel with no other input.

[Curti]

Is my thinking wrong here; if the pistons have brake fluid running by them the seals are leaking and there is a bigger problem. 

[PFitz]

15 minutes ago, Curti said:

Is my thinking wrong here; if the pistons have brake fluid running by them the seals are leaking and there is a bigger problem. 

 

Yes,  if the seals become worn. Or scored by abrasive that was left in the pistons if they were cleaned with  sand paper or emery cloth.

 

Or, if the bores are not coated with assembly lube and they become corrosion pitted, then as the brake lining wears and the piston and cup move toward the end of the bores to take up wear, the cup lip could move to pitted areas of the bore and then leak.

 

When brake fluid leaks past the cup lip, if enough leaks past it will bulge the rubber dust boots.  If it becomes alot of fluid trapped in the boot end of the cylinders it can pop the  edge of the dust boots off the cylinder and you'll have brake fluid running down onto the drum and linings.  

 

Paul

Edited December 24, 2017 by PFitz (see edit history)

[Ivan Saxton]

Lancia Aurelias of the 1950s were made with bronze pistons in aluminium bores.  The only problem that I have ever had is unavailability of Metric seal sizes to suit.   I have had the bores all sleeved with stainless to available inch standard,  for instance, 25 emu size is now one inch.  I made new bronze pistons to suit the one inch stainless bores.  Diameter of pistons is 3 thou less than the bore size.   (The thousandth of an inch is the most useful unit of measurement for fits and tolerances.  Metric measurements have specific usefulness for scientific purposes.   Essentially, you use units of measurement that bear a sensible relationship to what you are dealing with.   In the early 1970s,  the most ignorant, despotic lawyer politician in our history made law that Australia should convert from imperial to his hero Napoleon's metric measurement system, without referendum.   I derisively refer to millimetres as ethnic measurement units, or emus; emus being large flightless birds who function more on instinct than cognitive ability.)

Edited December 27, 2017 by Ivan Saxton
sleep deprivation (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

Off topic but ....Interesting take on metrication. We did the same thing is about 1972. If you are working in decimal inches, they are easy. But most people work in inches and fractions so arithmetic becomes pain in the tripe.

 

Another thing, in this country and perhaps in yours, land titles were measured in links. Areas were in acres, perches, poles etc. (aaaaarrrggghhh!) Engineering surveys were in feet. What a pain it was. So when we went metric, us surveyors had ingrained in our heads some conversion factors: 1 link = 0.201168 m = 7.92 inches. 1 foot = 0.3048 m. It is surely a lot easier if it is all in the one unit, decimal metres. But I often still say something is about 4" wide or whatever, rather than 100 mm or 10 cm.

[Larry Schramm]

21 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Off topic but ....Interesting take on metrication. We did the same thing is about 1972. If you are working in decimal inches, they are easy. But most people work in inches and fractions so arithmetic becomes pain in the tripe.

 

Another thing, in this country and perhaps in yours, land titles were measured in links. Areas were in acres, perches, poles etc. (aaaaarrrggghhh!) Engineering surveys were in feet. What a pain it was. So when we went metric, us surveyors had ingrained in our heads some conversion factors: 1 link = 0.201168 m = 7.92 inches. 1 foot = 0.3048 m. It is surely a lot easier if it is all in the one unit, decimal metres. But I often still say something is about 4" wide or whatever, rather than 100 mm or 10 cm.

 

I understand the floating between worlds, Metric or English.  Much of the car business is metric, but get measurements in both systems and are constantly converting.  I have gotten pretty good at converting both ways.

[Spinneyhill]

On 27/12/2017 at 11:31 AM, Ivan Saxton said:

In the early 1970s,  the most ignorant, despotic lawyer politician in our history made law that Australia should convert from imperial to his hero Napoleon's metric measurement system, without referendum.

Hmmm. The metric system was not Napoleon's. "

Napoleon himself ridiculed the metric system, but as an able administrator, recognised the value of a sound basis for a system of measurement..."

 

See the Wikipedia article on History of the Metric System.

[oldmoney]

Why not get new pistons machined out of stainless steel?

[JACK M]

A few decades ago they were going to convert the USA to metric. Didn't happen.

Anybody remember the  "Metric Ain't American"  bumper stickers?

[TerryB]

23 minutes ago, JACK M said:

A few decades ago they were going to convert the USA to metric. Didn't happen.

Anybody remember the  "Metric Ain't American"  bumper stickers?

Don’t throw away your metric wrenches, SAE is still alive but metric is out there too in big numbers.

[joe_padavano]

2 hours ago, JACK M said:

A few decades ago they were going to convert the USA to metric. Didn't happen.

 

Worked on any "American" vehicles built in the last 20 years or so?

[mike6024]

3 hours ago, oldmoney said:

Why not get new pistons machined out of stainless steel?

 

Sounds like a good idea.

 

[Curti]

The pistons do not hold any fluid back. They only serve to push on the rubber seals.  

[PFitz]

Did you coat the pistons, bores, and cups with brake assembly lube  before putting them together ?

 

I do that with all brake system rebuilding, sleeved, or new cast iron wheel cylinders. I can't speak for stainless sleeves, because I've never used anything but brass sleeves on all my customer's cars.  I have not had any problems with aluminum pistons reacting with brass sleeved master or wheel cylinders,  and I don't use DOT 5.

 

Paul

Edited May 16, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history)

[JACK M]

21 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

 

Worked on any "American" vehicles built in the last 20 years or so?

 

Nope.

 

But I have metric and Wentworth tools that don't get used much.

[Spinneyhill]

Whitworth rather than Wentworth? I have some of them too, from my father.

[JACK M]

Probably, I never can remember that stuff.

But I do know they are for the British vehicles that I see on occasion.

Thanks for the correction.

[Dave Henderson]

On 5/15/2019 at 12:46 PM, JACK M said:

A few decades ago they were going to convert the USA to metric. Didn't happen.

Anybody remember the  "Metric Ain't American"  bumper stickers?

Sorry, it's not gone away, except for the gas Shell was selling by the litre in Vienna, Va. at the start of the craze.  I'm told that building permits in Fairfax County require metric dimensions, after all, who knows what A 2 x 4 is.....?

[JACK M]

OK, I am working on a 1971 Harley Davidson three wheel golf cart.

It has a starter generator that runs and charges in both directions. As does the 2 cycle engine.

That SG part is beyond me, but right after I was happy with the running condition it quit cranking.

When the solenoid activates there is voltage at all four posts on that unit, Granted this is with everything hooked up and in fact two of the terminals are getting voltage from the reversing switch.

So much for that. As I said, beyond me.

I started to say that the nuts on all of those terminals on the starter generator unit are 10 mm.

Y'all know what AMF is right?

[Frank DuVal]

American Machine and Foundry!

 

But that solenoid was probably sourced form the east.  10 mm nuts are the typical nut  on 6 mm x 1.00 pitch bolts. I see them all the time on large electronics.

[JACK M]

Turns out that the reversing switch had lost its ground.

Stopped by a place called "Walz Auto" in Salem. Its a motor shop.

Nice guy that checked the unit for me, to my dismay it checked good.

Then he gave me a schematic that he had on file and explained a couple of things to look for.

The light in my brain went on as he could explain so that even I could understand.

Charged me five bucks and earned a new customer.

Any body out there that would like to own a running HD gc? Even come with a second cart for parts.

 

I would bet that the solenoid is the same as the old Ford tractors.

But yes, the starter/generator is Asian from new.

Edited May 21, 2019 by JACK M (see edit history)

[broker-len]

had two brake systems sleeved in brass by apple      few years ago    did not use anything in assembling   did not know !!!!!    no problems

[trini]

I think in around 1987 Chrysler had problems with the front disc brakes pistons sticking . The problem was the chrome on the pistons was bubbling. The problem was corrected by replacing the pistons with some sort of material like phenolic or something like that. It was black in colour and hard. May be just the type of material needed to make pistons for stainless inserts on cylinders. Just my thought.. Or may be plain stainless steel.