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Just like the trunk wood fit up . when  I grind on wood just like body work i draw lines on the wood with a black marks a lot all over the part the ink lets me know how much i have ground off it really helps would not even try with out it i grind the center out and leave the edges showing if i want a lot off I ink it each time I grind that way I don't end up with a big low spot in the finish and i like using 36 grit don't mess around with fine stuff it takes to long when I belt sand its like 2 seconds and its done if u want more off check that all ink is gone reink and grind a gin the red ink is meant to be low spot so grind more thier that way I don't have to keep track i get 6 parts ready to sand sand for 2 minutes and 6 parts are done ready to try the fit again if I ever leave off in the middle of a project i can see ink all over the wood that means go grind dont have to think about it its the same way my grandpa showed me how to do body work on cars .while going to highschool I painted 2 cars a week for over 3 years that's how I passed english his car was a silver caddy .when I'm shaping steel in my machine shop I mark It the same way and have worn out over a 100 new 4.5'' grinders and always use 36 grit its way faster I only got to work on the door for a couple hr. but tomorrow I will cut the finger joints on the end of them .I tried using the table saw to cut them but was unhappy with how long it took a mill could cut both ends and the mates it 5 min and hold a couple .003 with that speed .But I do use a mill all day long to .the only help  I get in my shop is Mr.wiggles he helps by eating my chips and sandwich when i'm not looking .   PS I took 30 picture more but will put them in a memory chip if your interested of just the door to day and 250 more of each steep from start to finish for the hole car . 

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the new frame snaps in like a glove .the factory frame that I copied does to but I had to glue the hinge post the one that carries all the load was of course broken split up the center. I could have just made that one.  I only had the wood for one door passenger door and in order to make a miroir image of the passenger door I needed to have good drawings that would fit good. Because there is no 90 deg angle on most of the door wood it makes them really hard to copy the factory parts by hand even the door is not at 90 deg, sheet metal now that I have true straight wood frame to copy I will draw it in C.A.D. and get out my tool cutter grinder and make a 8 deg cutter 3deg. and 5 deg.   that will have the side profile of the top of the door so in one pass it will get 3 sides of the profile and the curve of the out side of the door all in one pass it will be some big cutters but in a 13000 lb CNC mill it won't matter .  the door wood fits so tight it could get sanded a full 1/8 off the face side that touches the outside door skin and still be tight .for some reason there is steps in the wood that don't line up in the factory wood but I copied that to maybe  it has to do with the interior fit of the upholstery ??? well thats it till christmas - God bless you and your family --kyle 

1 . the last picture 8 deg  side profile with tenon being straight right after i cut it it has shavings hanging on it  

2 the corner mared D 2nd pic. is that 8 deg. mating 5a3e2525c78bd_20171223_012014_Film11.thumb.jpg.2d73bd6966852b571a978850a65a590f.jpgt

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on my workbench I have picked up some left over cuts off the floor and slipped them under the door so it's not just touching on the high spot in the center I was pushing as hard as I could on the skin to fit the parts in and was afraid i was going to dent up the door if I don't do that .  when I finally get the wood frame in place it makes a loud pop sound and have to use a screwdriver to get it to come back out no way could u get it out with just your fingers maybe  150 lb of force to make it fit with a shoe spoon holding the bottom lip down a 1/16''

PS I'm starting to type really fast now and getting use to hitting the shift key if my non capitals is driving u nuts it does me to but hunt and peck takes forever for me  kyle

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For any one thinking that fit is to tight wood shrinks when it gets old I have wood patterns that I made for my foundry patterns for my under watter dive vehical that I made 37 years ago that have shrunk a lot and the wood in the door that Im using as patterns is 100 years right 

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Looks like red oak to me.

Kyle. one must be careful as to cutting with or against the grain in making up the curved pieces. As the wood dries further or takes on moisture those same curved pieces will want to straighten out. Make sure you use a good sealer before final assembly. At the factory the frames may have had a quick sealer of shellac but certainly not enough to do a good job for the long haul for these cars being out in the weather.

Again.. they were expected to last 5-10 years tops. Not 90. The interior of the sheet metal the skins were applied to in many cases only had the mill coating and if any paint is on them at all was after the skins were applied to the frame. Change in temperatures caused the skin to sweat causing rot in the frames.

 

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You have to remember what these parts are for patterns to draw in computer to make more of its always better to start big anyone can sand them down but really hard to make them bigger .when you are test fitting them in your door thay might not fit as tight  .I would still like someone to send me a 4 door wood frame I have doors but no wood .But I have a neat Idea on how to make patterns with out any never mind I will show U how to make your own patters with out wood it will be ez 

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On 12/23/2017 at 3:46 AM, trimacar said:

What kind of wood are you using for the framework?  I know there are people who can look at pictures and tell, but I'm not one of them!

I have been looking for some Ash wood but so far the olnly wood that I can find it oak for hardwood . 

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I had two nice ash trees in my yard, borers killed them.

 

Yes, ash would be better.  From a trimmer's perspective, one who uses tacks as original, oak splits very easily.  Ash is a much tighter grain wood.  Probably wouldn't matter much if you use staples, I just don't like staples far early cars.

 

One  has to remember that, when these cars were built, everyone understood wood in bodies, as it'd been used for centuries.  Now, one must make a study of it to do it correctly.

 

thanks for sharing the process....

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picture #1 finished set really happy with the finished shape of the door your not just making the wood frame your doing the body work at the same time so if you need more curve to match the car make wood more curved 

#2 first I copied the old wood just mirrored the shape but I did not like the finished shape of the door so threw that on out went back to the body and copped the curve and made new one that fit really nice to the curve of the body .

I left .100 thou on the inside of each part left them all high that way when I copy them in the finished pile of them they could get reshaped and still not be to narrow to workout  otherwise I only like 36 grit sandpaper its only about 4 to 7 sec. and .100 would be off the back side  full length of the part .Im happy now I can hang the doors and finish the car wood all the parts are made but been waiting on the doors hanging on their hinges be for I assemble the rest of the car I'm going to start by making the first body line perfectly gapped right the drivers door first if there is nothing worse than a crooked body line in the drivers door that is the one that gets looked at the most .   looks like I will have the car finished by new years eve  yaaaaaaaa 5a406b7ec2671_20171224_090054_Film11.thumb.jpg.4e1be59b79c046db51ed184df30d8805.jpg5a406b7ec2671_20171224_090054_Film11.thumb.jpg.4e1be59b79c046db51ed184df30d8805.jpg

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A picture of me cheeking the truck wood on the opening of the trunk was sanding the cut wood to match the body not the trunk lid and made the wood fit in the truck after the wood was a good match to the adjacent body line .on wood grain cuts the wood is bidirectional laminations  of wood grain that way it fights is self to change shape and the wood in using is kindled dried now. --kyle  this is real fun 

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In coffy cans is every nut bolt and nail pulled out of this car and notes as to where that came out of 200 or more coffy cans came with this 1925 master roadster some only have 2 bolts in them the notes tell me where the hard ware came out of -- that is being bless by God dont u know .  this too cans said right door left door and notes in both

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      1 st. pic. is test fitting new door post fits nice and tight the cal is just sitting on a table 

     2nd pic. after installed on car it fits lose and now the bracket does not touch the post .Now I know the cal. is out of square but with a tape the bottom wood is square to each other .I look at the bracket inside the cal. its riveted non adjustable .I now know i need to make the floor match the cal. 

      3rd pic I cut new set of wood to match outside of skin so I can squeeze the sheet tight to the new wood post but the key to make it tight is in the bracket 1/4'' off the back .

It fits so tight when its not on the wood runners .when I put a clamp on the bracket I can  force it to touch but when I unclamp it the crack comes back .

So I take all hardware out of the jig that its setting on and clamp all 4 sides on the post and shake the hole car really hard I cant change the shape of the cal. so i'm going to let the cal. shape the car up as beat it can .I figure at the beginning in the factory this must be the first part of the assembly line cal. to runners the cal. it riveted up inside with brackets and walllla the car frame is now skin tight and square to the door post and where the hood will line up and I take the clamps all off and it stays tight now the floor is out of square but that can be shimmed up to be square I was at a dead end with unchangeable riveted brackets at 3 locations in side the cal. the brackets hold windshield post door post and swinging door all square to each other so the part has to be lined up first the rest of the car will go smooth as glass now.  --    Kyle

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about to hang the first hinge  I think the top hinge first this is 50 times harder than a 1929 Ford witch is the only other car with wood work my 1929 Doge did not need any wood work when me and Grandpa rebuilt that one it was all trany and engine work .

would anyone care to tell me about hanging this style of hinge  does not look like any adjustment  or am I missing it ????  kyle 

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Lots of places sell Ash online.  The big hardware stores seem to only carry Oak, Pine, and Poplar.   

http://www.macbeath.com/products/108226-domestic-lumber  California

https://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/category/Ash.html  Arizona

https://www.bairdbrothers.com/Ash-C933.aspx   Ohio

I am going to order some ash just to see how it compares in properties to these 3 others.  I have some knowledge about wood, but not extensive like a few people that I know.  Always good to learn something new.

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17 minutes ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

Lots of places sell Ash online.  The big hardware stores seem to only carry Oak, Pine, and Poplar.   

http://www.macbeath.com/products/108226-domestic-lumber  California

https://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/category/Ash.html  Arizona

https://www.bairdbrothers.com/Ash-C933.aspx   Ohio

I am going to order some ash just to see how it compares in properties to these 3 others.  I have some knowledge about wood, but not extensive like a few people that I know.  Always good to learn something new.

 

Ash is a very fine grain wood.  I replace some of the wood in a 1935 Pierce Arrow coupe many years ago, using ash.  It was very easy to work, and was not prone to splitting as some of the loose grain woods seem to be.  Also, after about two years in the car, it became hard as a rock.  I went back to drill some holes and it was actually difficult.

 

I don't know much about wood either, but I know a little about using ash!  I once was involved in an industrial project, and one of the zoning requirements was to plant a certain amount and type of vegetation along the property lines.  I hired an arborist, and while he was walking the property, I joked that I only knew two types of trees, those that are pine trees, and those that aren't.  He didn't take it as a joke, and proceeded to explain to me that if I really knew pine trees, I'd know about half of the trees in existence, since half of the varieties are species of pine trees....oh well, can't be funny all the time...

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Kyle:

 Final fit up of the hinges is with shims. I had a whole collection of wood, metal, cardboard in a few of my hinge pockets.

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I also made new hinge pins to fit the worn out pivot holes. It was so nice to push the door with only 2 fingers and hear a solid click! Before that it was lift and slam! The rubber bumpers also had to be accurately fitted. I made some up by carving a rubber block with a razor knife. A medium density rubber. Hugh researched the dureometer? scale and all. Then he sent me a sample of what he bought. It will be enough to do the Master. The original bumpers were installed in the striker plate then a nail through it. All the original ones in both my  Standard and the Master were hard as concrete..

Photos of what the wood was like in the doors of my Standard.

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Scabbed in splice for the left front hinge post.

DSCF4899.thumb.JPG.175e82d4634923ece83aad37894d27b8.JPGDSCF4901.thumb.JPG.c5b8f039d2c49e4bd1a64116fc1498df.JPG And yes I know that the very bottom is lapped into the sill. The metal brace kept things pretty solid and I would not have to remove the entire cowl to get the hinge post out.

Here is a close up of the decorative sill plate on the roadster. Photos of my friends 1927-54.

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Also, so far I like the shade of Cobalt Blue you are using for the body. I have been trying to get a consensus for the correct shade for my master. As I believe that mine originally was a 1st type Pre-DUCO that was Black.

 Not to be confused but our model 44 and 45 cars take a metal retaining plate to hold the check straps instead of the "Footman Loops".DSCF4845.thumb.JPG.1a2eb6ab4fa68eaed2c1217e4d92e8a9.JPG 

I had to make the plates and then copied the straps from what was in my friends 1928-25. Except, the master Parts Book and Leif confirmed that we are to have harness leather straps in our 1925s.

Larry

.

 

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2 hours ago, dibarlaw said:

the shade of Cobalt Blue you are using for the body.

Thanks it is really pretty all the info above is great news I will take pic. of the strap ends that are painted also 

l have the door all lined up and cal. front end trueded all up ready to mount the hinges .the pic. of traming the door post up to line the body line up to get hood gap and door gap just right is in the little bracket but hear they are .At first the gap on the front of car was 1/4 '' out of tram with adjacent panel " CAL." but with the adjusting -- traming bracket found on the front of the firewall I was able to get both body lines true as could bee . Boy with this program really looks like I can spell .     Tanks HUE for the wood teest let me know how it turns out 4 washers worth of adjustment made all the different last pic shows its moved a lot.

pic 2 im using c clamp to force ajuster  to move. down razing front of cal. up 

 

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At last pic. there is only 4 screws holding cal to running boards did not want to take chance and drill thru holes yet if their in the wrong spot the body will fight its self so I wanted the body lines all perfect before I drill any holes in the new wood frame it will stay aligned that way for life  -- kyle       6 day left of vacation I will be driving this car by then Lord willing 

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11 hours ago, dibarlaw said:

Leif confirmed that we are to have harness leather straps in our 1925s.

Larry

do I need 4 or 2   2 per door ?   I did not see a loop braket  in any of the parts I have but that does not mean I dont need them .but i did not know I should be looking for some ??  

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#1 its hanging but don't line up on the out side I used little wood screws so I figured this would take a minit any hinge is always a bit of try and move try and move 

#2 trying to mark the hinge wile closed that is why its hard to get right this is the side that a made without any wood at all as patterns so I made all parts fat so I figure this side will take a wile to match the out side curve A hr. latter it fit really nice except the curve is to big or the center of the door is high  but it really was on purpose now I will take the skin off and grind it down if it was to low  the door would look like a sunk in cheek bone .I will block it like a normal paint job to keep the curve as beast I can 

#6 cheep drill jig to line  up the hole so I know where the bit is going to pop out the steel plate 

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8 hours ago, sligermachine said:

do I need 4 or 2   2 per door ?   I did not see a loop braket  in any of the parts I have but that does not mean I dont need them .but i did not know I should be looking for some ??  

Kyle:

 You will only need one for each door. I had more in my photo because I was doing them for a touring car. I went to a local discount store and found some stamped sliding cabinet door pulls that were very close. So I cut things apart and did a bit of reforming.

DSCF4837.thumb.JPG.3be89556df1f5890111294ec70d0c87a.JPGDSCF4838.thumb.JPG.17093c5fbcab3b45bf1f33fc48cc85c3.JPG I made a wood setting die/jig to duplicate. Holes were located and countersunk on the jig with grooves cut to locate the body sides of the reformed plate. I drilled the through holes then pressed the 60 degree forming tool to stamp in the countersink into the steel plate. If you do not have these plates I can make up 4 more for you.

DSCF4841.thumb.JPG.8c8f6a4fa46a4feff9b2e9e946300ba4.JPG Check the body on your 1924-45 there maybe the same type of retaining plates near the bottom of the door post.

DSCF4839.thumb.JPG.07bb2f7415ead8a126d0f89d65efa90a.JPGFinished retainer(right) with unstamped blank on the (left}. Brown strap shows original retainer plate.

 

There were still holes left to locate the # 10 Nickel  plated oval head wood screws. The Standard was close to the floor. Here is the location of my Master check strap. I would still verify to see if there are any holes left in the old wood parts.

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Well the drivers door is hung and hinges are bolted .My Last fit up was just a little tight for the shape of the body style so I will put 2 1/16 shims under the door side of hinges  It lines up perfect but took a wile I did not have old  wood to go by so I made all the parts just on the big side so I could sand to fit allways 36 grit and I spent no more than 1 min sanding I like to push so hard on the belt it stalls  the motor wile I belt sand hate to wast time  1 second 1/16 '' off wile rolling to match the curve . I have taught over 25  people how to be a machinist and time is your worst enemy making one off parts 1/2 of the time wile the plant manager is waiting at the front of the shop wile his plant is broken down waiting for the gear --sprocket-- bracket  that's how come I sand so hard normally its steel not wood . But that is a one foo machine shop for you only been at it for 20 years starting to get good at it now !!!- Kyle

pic.# 8 it is hung finley lines up good but I'm afraid it might chip paint if I leave it this close so 1/16 shims both door hinges 

pic.# 9 I used little wood screws with big washers to keep moving the first 5 or 6 times to get it really close before I put a real screw in it 

 

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pic. 2the hinges are bent Will not work like this but tried for a while but no go 

pic. 3 old hinges test fit work grate look at the original from factory with shim 

 pic.5 New set work awesome after sand and paint  

pic.6  7 lined up awesome after some shiming and up down   

first pic. wile I was drilling the bolts that go thure hinges wood post and casting I knew this was my last chance to do some fine tuning trying to get the last 1/4 of flexable square in I also did this while drilling the other side to this time it stayed put 

Next job line up both backe post --kyle

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The body lines work them from the front of the car to the back is how I'm doing this car  both the front cal is level and plum so I made the doors match and reshaped the wood in the doors to match the cal. shape and now the back of the door to the door  post

ether make the door wood shape match the door post and trim it all down to make them line up in shape so far iv only took a 1/4'' off of one part of the wood in the door the rest of the work is in the shiming of the hinges anged shinm push out and back to get the body lines to where a quarter will  just fit after its painted .the gap between the back of the door is controlled by making the car narrower or wider till the line is exactly the same and shiming up up the back of the car keep moving every thing till it lines up it will line up that it how the guy did it in the factory to .when the car rolled off the lot I bet my bottom dollar the body lines were perfect as the craftsman could get the steel body to be . And after its painted 5a4605ee03a45_20171229_003755_Film11.thumb.jpg.6284c626e61e7d1708f086539abaf462.jpgs probably too late to change stuff but I would still try the pictures tell the hole story 

 

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4 hours ago, Thriller said:

Ah...I just figured it out. Cal is cowl.  Not a criticism- I just  thought I'd post in case anyone else hadn't figured it out yet. 

 

I'm really just here for the pictures ?

 

most people just see words and they make sense to them U would not believe how hard it is for me to spell ---- 8 words are underlined allredy  10 now . --kyle 

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