"New" Full Classic?

[Guest]

Hi Ron !

First of all..let's keep all of this in perspective...I really don't think the earth will start wobbling on its axis...just because words and language evolve !

Secondly, I was trying to be imformative..and force people to THINK !

Ron - it is VERY difficult for you younger people to imagine what our social climate was, regarding old cars, when the Classic Car Club Of America was formed. There was a small, budding horseless carriage movement, and some "stirrings" on the east coast of the ANTIQUE car club.

But the general feeling was....old cars were good only for target practice...and people who were involved in them..were either too poor to even BOTHER associating with, and/or...NUTS !

To give you an idea, think back about some of the media presentations of what "old car people" were like, such as JACK BENNY SHOW, or early I LOVE LUCY shows. I am thinking now of one particular I LOVE LUCY segment... (the story line was she would prove how dingy she was...and DEZI had to figure out how to resolve the situation)........she bought a classic car...! ( a big Cadillac touring car from the early 1930's).

If old cars in general were the subject of ridicule, the "trappings of wealth" were the subject of envy...even hatred. The big long hoods, the elegant interiors, the proud and arrogant grills of the "real" classic cars, served as a symbol of the old upper classes. The hostility and jealousy the average guy felt for his "betters", could be seen in the public's attitude in those days, towards old luxury cars. Let me give you some examples.

A common method to draw "floor traffic" into a car dealership, was to find an old luxury car, and let people "take a whack" at it with a sledge hammer, if they'd just stop by and look at the new models. I personally saw this happen several times..once...with a beautiful mint-condition '37 Packard V-12 LeBaron town car.

My parents could have afforded to buy me any new car I wanted. My mother was heart-broken when she found out that I had "disgraced" the family by buying and bringing home "that horrible thing" home - "couldn't I have hidden it out in the garage.."? That "horrible thing" was the near - mind '38 Packard Twelve formal sedan, that I secretly purchased after a summer of mowing lawns in the evenings, to get extra money from my summer job as an apprentice in an automotive machine shop.

At the risk of repeating myself, I want to again refer you to WHY we selected the name "classic" for our Club. At that time, it was a little used term outside of highly educated people discussing art design and "the finer things in life". At that time, a look in a dictionary would disclose two meanings

" SOMETHING UNIQUE...OF FIRST RANK...OF THE HIGHEST STANDARD OF EXCELLENCE".

Thus an ordinary eight cylinder Packard or Cadillac sedan, priced and designed for the needs of the middle class, would NOT be a classic...but the big 450 cu. in V-12 and V-16's...with their much more elegant interiors...and much greater power and speed...WOULD be.

Another meaning that comes down thru the ages...is the concept of "classic design"...which, to those educated in such things, means "form follows function". Thus the elegant sweeping curve of a fender, the shape of a headlight shell...a radiator...all..in the "classic" school of design, are controled by their function. NOW you can see why...a stream-lined car..or so called "moderne" theory of design, is IRRELEVANT to the concept of classism.

Again, at the risk of repeating myself, I have noted many of us from the early days of the classic car movement, STILL shake our heads in disbelief in shock, and with pride...of course, at how successful we were in bringing the word "classic"...as a concept of something really nice....into common useage.

The SPEED at which we were successful in making the motor-buff public aware of the inherent value in the concept of "classism" still amazes me - within a few MONTHS of our founding and publisizing the concept, the predecessor of the LINCOLN CONTINENTAL OWNERS CLUB started agitating to call THEIR cars "classics".

Of course it was nonsence...first of all...the Lincoln Continental "platform" is a dinky little middle class car - cheaply made...a small engine (that V-12, at only 290 cu. in, was a pale shadow of the "real" Lincoln V-12's of an earlier period...) so it was hardly "of first rank". Of course its exterior shape and design were stunning; it was, in its jump foward into a whole new concept of stream-lined design, a total "break" with the "classic" school of design.

You know the rest...the LINCOLNS were given "classic" status, by people using EXACTLY the same arguments then, as the people who want other modern cars admitted today. And of course those who were opposed, were correct..the absurd inconsistancy of letting in the "Connies"...served as a basis to dillute our definition with various other examples down thru the years.

Those long proud hoods...the giant over-powered multi cylinders motors...the elegant interiors and highest quality fittings, the long sweeping fender lines that are the essence of the kind of car we formed the CCCA to protect...isn't it funny....three quarters of a century later, the mere SIGHT of one still invokes awe....envy...jealousy...etc. Even TODAY, ( I used my Packard Twelve as a second car...!) if I leave it parked anywhere...and sneak up behind the inevitable crowd that gathers...I can hear the comments....rarely do I hear someone say they LIKE it...usually...it is some denegrating comment like "I bet they over heat..."....."I hear they had really small pistons" (this usually is from someone who knew someone who saw one of those dinky little Lincoln Connie V-12's....a Packard V-12 is almost TWICE the displacement as those silly little Connies....!) "I hear they had lousy brakes" (probably from some guy who once drove an old Ford......Packard..in its super luxury cars...had the LARGEST SWEPT LINING AREA of that era..)!

So ...there you are....a peek into a "time window"...to see why some of us are STILL amazed at how the word "classic" has become so popular. And why we can occasionaly get a bit "vocal" at the absurdities of how our language has evolved.

Heck..if you look in most modern car buff publications...or listen to the average car buff today..you will often find they are no longer capable of forming a sentence discussing the cars they like without prefacing it with.."my "CLASSIC Chevy truck"......!

Best Regards

Pete Hartmann

[Guest]

Pete:

You are sounding like a bad broken record really.

Your views as to what consititutes a Classic Car were fortunately not adopted by the founders of the CCCA nor those who operate the club today, or the club probably would have died long ago. They wisely chose to use the vague terms "fine and unusual" automobiles rather than your much narrower ideas. They could have said "fine cars with upright stately grills, with sweeping fenders below the hood line, with long hoods and huge engines, kind of like a mid to early thirties Packard". Fortunately, they did not do this, and now we have in the club such wonderful cars like the later Cords, Chrysler Newports, the Cadillac 60S and, yes, the Lincoln Continentals. Plus many, many more that don't fit your ideas of the kind of car that belongs in this club.

What I find a bit odd is that your own '38 Packard, with its pontoon fenders and tall windshield, hardly fits the mold of being a "classic" design. It seems to me to be a transitional car, rather streamlined really.

All the best,

Bill

Albuquerque, NM

[Guest J446]

I'm reminded of the Supreme Court Justice (Renquirst?) who said: "I may not be able to define pornography but I sure know it when I see it..."

Best

[Guest]

Bill...you are correct - the later classics, such as my '38 Packard Twelve...most certainly WERE a "transitional" design. The Packard Twelve I bought in 1955 ...that is still in my garage serving as a second car, was not my first choice in a "classic". As you point out, my 1938's lines are showing the transition to "streamlining"...headlights, fenders, hood, are all still separate, but as you note, they are STARTING to show signs they will eventually "blend" together.

I MUCH prefer the more classic lines of the earlier cars. But...then as now, those "much more classic" lines come at a much higher price tag. It was all I could do to scrape together the twenty five bucks, that it took to buy my car. A much more "classic" shaped (say '35 or '36 Packard Twelve) with one of the more desirable body styles...in half-way decent condition, would have been worth a hundred bucks or more....WAY beyond my means....!

I did the best I could with the resources avail. at the time....sorry it dosnt meet your own preferences...which..frankly..I SHARE !

Pete Hartmann

[Guest]

Aw..c'mon..you guys....you claim I "sound like a broken record".....and that you are NOT obsessed with the word "classic".....! You guys have any idea how silly you sound ! 'Thou Doth Protest Too Much.....! "

You wanna talk about "obsession" with the word "classic" ? Be honest. So many people today are so obsessed by the word "classic", they are literally UNABLE to form a sentence regarding a used car they like (or...more likely..want to sell..!), without prefacing it with the word "classic" and/or "antique".

Those of you who subscribe to OLD CARS WEEKLY are invited to turn to Page 9 of the Sept 19 issue. There you will find an entity is selling "125 CLASSIC CARS AND TRUCKS", and included in this "list of classics" are used Ford pick-up trucks, and a couple of Volkswagens !

I especially liked the listing for the '51 Ford truck "cab-over" which is mounted on a modern Ford truck chassis ( I think I know this car...if it is the one I know...it is really a nice job ! )

You might also wish to turn to Page 13, of that issue, to find another seller of used cars. He likes the word "ANTIQUE". His listing for ANTIQUES include a couple of 1960's era Ramblers, and a 1958 King Midget !

Of COURSE this is their RIGHT ! This is a free country. Who is to say we dont have the right to EITHER...make as big a horse's behind of ourselves as we wish.......OR....who says I dont have a right comment on how silly these "wanna be's" are when they do so !

C'mon...guys......you guys who probably werent even BORN during the first few years of the Classic Car Club Of America are going to tell ME what our definitions were, or how my ideas relate to CCCA Regs, or how they evolved as the "wanna be's" gradually infested our Club with "almost" or "nearly as good as"....etc...etc....!

Can't we have just a BIT of honesty in here...? C'mon....get over it...you LOVE the word "classic"....many of you are so obsessed with it, you will do or say practically ANYTHING to try and bask in the limelight of the Classic Car Club movement.....you can't HELP yourselves ! Dont be ashamed...or try and cover it up...you are just being HUMAN !

Pete Hartmann

Big Springs, AZ

[fordee9r (Ron Springstead)]

OK, Pete, you're right! I DO love the word CLASSIC.... but not for the reasons you state. I have no desire to have either my '49 Ford Custom Sedan or my '37 Chrysler Royal Sedan referred to as "Classics" and, no, neither is for sale. As for the term "Antique", I am a member of AACA and, reluctantly, have to go along with their policy of any vehicle 25 years or older being recognized as an antique.

I may not agree with the AACA's policies of describing "antiques", but I definitely agree with the CCCA's criteria for defining a "Classic"! The recognized cars are truly works of art and should have their own niche in this hobby.

Since starting this thread, I've gained a lot of knowledge about "Classics" and I will not misuse the term.

By the way, Pete, did you miss your chance to buy a ticket for the raffle of a "Classic 1958 Chevy" that some organization was offering in <span style="font-style: italic">Old Cars</span> ?

[Guest]

Hi Ron:

Perhaps you can help me - I know next to nothing about the AACA. I do not recall them being very active out here in the west when I was a kid in Calif. in the 1950's, fooling around with classics. I am aware that they pre-date the CCCA - if memory serves, they go back to the mid 1930's. What can you tell us about what THEY felt an "antique" car was originally, and how this evolved down thru the years ?

From my previous "posts", you may already be aware that, personally, I can NOT imagine how anyone could call a car made much later than say...1918..an ANTIQUE. To me...an ANTIQUE car is just that...one with ANTIQUE features, such as "external contracting" brakes, no electrical system - lighting by accetylne/carbide gas, high pressure tires, etc.

Let us know what you think !

Pete Hartmann

[fordee9r (Ron Springstead)]

Hey Pete,

I'm willing to share my limited knowledge of the AACA. Yes they formed in the '30's, the 66th Annual Meeting was held in 2002 and I don't know if any were suspended during WWII. Even today there is not as much activity in the west as in the east. I don't know the original standards for accepted cars but I have heard that Model A's weren't too welcome in the 50's. Perhaps a new thread on the AACA General Forum could bring in more info.

Now for the old car word game. Antique, Classic, Veteran, etc... I've gotten a real education as to what a Classic is as defined by the CCCA. Does the Veteran Car Club and Horseless Carriage Club clearly define what cars they accept? If so, that would help define those words. I think AACA has taken it upon themselves to be all things to all old car people and define Antique as anything 25 years old or older. They may have started off recognizing true Antiques but somewhere along the line introduced this wacky 25 year rule. This may be why popular thought is that if Antique is misused then it's OK to misuse Classic as well.

[Guest]

CCCA not withstanding. The rest of the world does NOT have to follow CCCA rules for the use of the word 'Classic'. So what?????

PackardV8.

[Guest]

Mr. Hartmann has, in a previous post offered his [and by implication the club's] definition of a classic as the "largest,most powerful...most elegant"I understand that many mass-produced cars of the '30's are so recognized, why not the '20's as well?

By anyone's definition a 1923 McFarlan TV6 {with a Don Lee Collapsible town car body no less} would well fit this criteria both for it's exclusivity, power,price when new and absolutely top reputation in it's day. What about the Daniels? a good few of them have survived, are they recognized?

[Guest]

L Stellite - you are correct - lots of "mass produced" (read nice old middle class ordinary cars) are now recognized by the Classic Car Club Of America as "classics". But this was not always the case. If you had access to early issues of THE CLASSIC CAR (the magazine of the CCCA) and/or HANDBOOK AND DIRECTORY of the CCCA, you would see how we once were FAR more "exclusive" than our Club is today.

I know nothing about Daniels - I am not clear on the status of the MacFarlan..but I can tell you from personal experience the MacFarlan was one hell of a grand piece of machinery.

To summarize my previous "posts", over the years, ( in fact, as early as a few months after the CCCA's founding), people really got "caught up" in the mystique of the elegance, power..and, let's face it, "arrogant elitism" of the classic car. Thus it was not long before the National CCCA Board had people clamoring to admit this or that "almost as nice" ordinary middle class car.

This issue is really irrelevant now, given the way use of language, and "precision of speech" has pretty much gone out the window in our country. Each year we more and more each year cease to be a technically oriented one, our educational systems fail, and we fall further and further towards third world status.

As I noted in a "post" elsehwere in this forum, you can get an idea of what the word "classic" means now, by reading modern car buff publications, such as OLD CARS WEEKLY. Hot-rodded pick-up trucks, Volkswagens, etc.

We know that in today's times, people have become so obsessed with the word "classic", that most people today are incapable of describing ANY old used car without first prefacing their description with the word "classic".

Frankly, I am getting bored with this issue. It is a free country...who could argue with those who say ...."Damn the CCCA...we LIKE the word "classic", and we ARE going to use it on whatever we need to boost our ego on...". Like it or not, this IS the way it is.

May I suggest we ALL agree that this has been discussed enough. Should any of you STILL be interested in this issue, I suggest a review of prior "posts". You can find all arguments about this issue set forth. I think we are ALL repeating ourselves.

I suspect you guys are getting as tired as hearing my point of view, as I am reading my own arguments. My arguments are not relevant to today's car culture. My arguments are of no interest to the overwhelming majority of car buffs. Just walk thru your nearest major dept. store nd see where today's products are NOT made...! We have ceased to be a technically oriented manufacturing society, where "precision of speech" was essential.

There must be some technical issue regarding old cars that we can discuss...that would be more useful, interesting, and relevant to TODAY's car buffs.

Pete Hartmann

Big Springs, AZ

[Buicksplus]

Stellite:

As I understand it, unless the 1924 McFarlan you mention produced an esentially identical car in 1925 or later, it would not be eligible for the CCCA. The CCCA defined the "classic era" as from 1925 to 1948. Naturally, there are very many fabulous cars produced outside this era, such as the McFarlan, but they are not eligible unless they are identical to later models produced during the "classic era".

Bill

Albuquerque, NM

[Guest]

I believe the TV6 was produced on order up to about 1928, maybe later,not sure.

It was one of the most powerful and expensive cars produced at that time.

Interestingly enough Jack Dempsey's 1926 McFarlan phaeton is up for sale and what a car that is!

[Buicksplus]

Stellite:

I noticed that the McFarlan TV6 and 8 are on the Classics list. I would think the Don Lee car you mentioned would quite likely be eligible based on the "essentially identical" rule. But the owner or someone with an interest would have to apply to the classification committee and demonstrate that case. They have been busy of late with the addition of quite a few cars falling under this classification, see Jon Lee's posting earlier in this thread.

Bill

Albuquerque, NM

[Guest]

Yes, the CCCA just changed their by laws to allow pre 1925 cars that are "virtually identical" to those built in 1925 to apply for inclusion.

I imagine the example you cite would be accepted. Let's just hope they never accept any more post war cars.