New 64 Riviera owner

[BMac]

I recently purchased a 1964 Riviera that was in pieces when I got it.  I am in the process of getting it running and driving before it gets painted.  I got the car and a lot of extra parts.  2 trailer loads and 5 truck loads of stuff.  It has the 425 dual quad set up.  It is a numbers matching engine, but was not originally dual quad.  I have been able to figure most everything out so far, but I am stumped on the rear end.  It has a posi rear, and the rear drums are missing.  I have tried to identify which rear end it is, but the only markings I can find are a large 70 stamped on the top and bottom of the bell.  It also has what appears to be a vent tube on the driver's side top.  Any help identifying this would be appreciated.

[RivNut]

Welcome to the forum.  I "feel your pain" trying to assemble a car from boxes of parts.  Any chance you can post a picture of the rear end in question?  The first generation Rivieras have a rear end with a drop out center section, no inspection cover.  It would be a real task to swap rear ends.  There are quite a few guys who have Riviera parts one of whom should be able to supply parts for your car.  The Riviera shares chassis and running gear with other large model Buicks from the same era.  

 

It would help everyone who might have the parts to know where you live.  Play around with your profile and make your location part of your avatar.

 

A membership in the Riviera Owners Association would give you access to the classifieds through their bi-monthly magazine.  Probably many, many more Riviera enthusiasts than take part in this forum.  Lots of help in the Tech Tips on the ROA's website put it's like American Express - membership has its privileges (tech tips are limited to members only who get updated usernames and passwords with every issue of the magazine.)

[BMac]

Here are the best pics I could get right now.  Hope this may help to identify them.

[BMac]

[RivNut]

1 hour ago, BMac said:

Looks to me like it's a stock Buick rear end, just like the one in my '64.

[BMac]

Thanks for the reply.  My main concern was I noticed 64 and 65 rear drums had different part numbers.  I wanted to make sure it wasn't a 65 rear end.  It looks to have been replaced since last driven.  It has 2 sets of emergency brake cables currently and new hardware.

[telriv]

The "07" represents the ratio of the rear end gears. In this case 3.07, unless someone changed them out over the years. The rear drums have a larger hub diameter in '64 than '65, but they are basically the same.

[RivNut]

10 hours ago, BMac said:

Thanks for the reply.  My main concern was I noticed 64 and 65 rear drums had different part numbers.  I wanted to make sure it wasn't a 65 rear end.  It looks to have been replaced since last driven.  It has 2 sets of emergency brake cables currently and new hardware.

Measure the diameter of the rear hub.  If its a hair over 3 inches, its from a 64; if it's smaller than 3 inches, its from a 65. There could be a difference in the drums but I dont have access to my 65 to compare. In 65, the diameter of the hub got smaller so the center hole in the drum could be smaller as well.  In 65, the front drum still had the larger 64 hole in it, but that drum was riveted to the hub so it did not need to be hub centric. The rear drums may need to be hub centric.   When looking for drums for your 64, just make sure the diameter of the center hole is at least 3 inches in diameter.  

Edited December 5, 2017 by RivNut (see edit history)

[BMac]

The center of the hub measures 2 3/4".  This leads me to believe the rear end is out of a 65.  The guy I purchased off of parted out a 65 GS, so it's possible its off that car.  He parted out eight 1st Gen Rivs and I got all that he had left, and he saved the best of everything for this car.

[RivNut]

If the rear end came from a Gran Sport (Not a GS, that was the intermediate sized car) it would be a 3.42 posi-trac rear end.  Now it's time to compare drive shaft revolutions to wheel revolutions and calculate the ratio to make sure of what you have.   Posi-trac rear ends are supposed to have a circle around an X stamped into the right axle housing.  Something else to look for. ?

[BMac]

It was not the smaller Gran Sport.  It was the Riviera GS.  I have all the doors and interior pieces from it as spares or re-home.  Thanks again for the help

[BMac]

Is the X on the top or bottom?  How big is it?  I have been looking for it to no prevail.

[BMac]

After testing, I believe it has 3.42 gears.

[Rivdrivn]

People pay good money (>$800) for those numbers. Especially an owner of a '65 Riviera Gran Sport that's missing its original posi. I know I did. Just don't mail it in a styrofoam container. Very messy.

 

A 3.23 posi would be better all around, especially on the highway (and probably less expensive to acquire).

[RivNut]

41 minutes ago, BMac said:

It was not the smaller Gran Sport.  It was the Riviera GS.  I have all the doors and interior pieces from it as spares or re-home.  Thanks again for the help

You've got it backwards.  What I'm trying to say is that Buick called the Riviera the Gran Sport.   It called its intermediate Skylark series 2dr (both hard top and post) the GS. The badging on the Skylark series is 'GS' -  fenders and grill.  The badging on the Riviera is 'Gran Sport' - fenders and trunk.  Probably one of the greatest misnomers in the hobby.  Most Riviera guys know the difference but are just lazy when they write it ok or speak. 

 

Google Buick GS and look at the images. Do the same for the Riviera Gran Sport.

[RivNut]

51 minutes ago, BMac said:

Is the X on the top or bottom?  How big is it?  I have been looking for it to no prevail.

Supposedly on the bottom of the right side axle housing.   

[RivNut]

2 hours ago, BMac said:

The center of the hub measures 2 3/4".  This leads me to believe the rear end is out of a 65.  The guy I purchased off of parted out a 65 GS, so it's possible its off that car.  He parted out eight 1st Gen Rivs and I got all that he had left, and he saved the best of everything for this car.

GS (Skylark) rear ends have an inspection plate and have  a 10 bolt cover.  They have an 8.2 inch ring gear.  The Riviera has a drop out third member and a 9-3/8 inch ring gear.   On the drop out center section, the number of teeth for both the ring gear and the pinion gear is stamped on the ring gear.  Dividing the two will give you the ratio. 

[BMac]

Ok, I was referring to the Gran Sport.  Sorry for the confusion.  The driveshaft turned roughly 3.5 times for one revolution of the wheel. This is why I believe it has the 3.42 gears.  I found the X on the bottom also.  Thanks for all the help, I am pretty sure it is out of the 65 Gran Sport he parted out at this time.  This will help in ordering the correct rear brake drums and components.  I have found Original Parts Group and CARS both carry them, any other places I should check?

[RivNut]

I think that most of the others on this forum, you'll find that OPGI is 1) over priced - you can find the same elsewhere for less - and

2) a lot of things they sell either don't fit or are of inferior quality.  CARS does a good job of supplying what you need (If they have it) and listening to you. They cover all years of Buick, not just Rivieras.  If you join the ROA, you'll find a very thorough list of specialty suppliers of reproductions, NOS, and used parts. You'll find out that unlike Chevelles, Camaros, and Mustangs, there are very few aftermarket parts made.  40,000 or less cars per year compared to 400,000 units makes a difference in what companies are willing to produce. Nothing wrong with looking for a set of good used drums as compared to what I would believe to be universal 12" x 2" drums.  If don't get in a big hurry, you can find what you're looking for.  Be sure to go to the buy/sell forum under the Buick General page.  Johnny Buick is parting out a 66 Wildcat the drums from that car should work for you.

[Rivman]

11 hours ago, RivNut said:

Posi-trac rear ends are supposed to have a circle around an X stamped into the right axle housing.  Something else to look for. ?

 

Actually, I believe the gear ratio is what is stamped on the tube, the “X” in the circle is on the bottom of the flange.

 

[Rivman]

10 hours ago, BMac said:

Ok, I was referring to the Gran Sport.  Sorry for the confusion.  The driveshaft turned roughly 3.5 times for one revolution of the wheel. This is why I believe it has the 3.42 gears.  I found the X on the bottom also.  Thanks for all the help, I am pretty sure it is out of the 65 Gran Sport he parted out at this time.  This will help in ordering the correct rear brake drums and components.  I have found Original Parts Group and CARS both carry them, any other places I should check?

 

Mine turned about the same as yours did. I haven’t located any ratio stampings but was able to find the “X” on the flange too.

 

I am guessing both sides were turning the same direction too? Besides the “X” that is another way to tell it is a posi.

[RivNut]

1 hour ago, Rivman said:

Besides the “X” that is another way to tell it is a posi.

A nice dirt road and a heavy right foot should tell you right away.

[RivNut]

Heres a picture of the 3.07 stamp on the bottom of the axle housing on my 64. I'm pointing to where the numbers are stamped into the housing.  You can see where the yoke for the drive shaft is just above the knuckle on the ring finger of my left hand. My index finger is lying where the center section bolts onto the axle housing.

Edited December 6, 2017 by RivNut (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

20 hours ago, RivNut said:

You've got it backwards.  What I'm trying to say is that Buick called the Riviera the Gran Sport.   It called its intermediate Skylark series 2dr (both hard top and post) the GS. The badging on the Skylark series is 'GS' -  fenders and grill.  The badging on the Riviera is 'Gran Sport' - fenders and trunk.  Probably one of the greatest misnomers in the hobby.  Most Riviera guys know the difference but are just lazy when they write it ok or speak. 

 

Google Buick GS and look at the images. Do the same for the Riviera Gran Sport.

Ed,

  I believe you are mistaken here. The words "Gran Sport" were also spelled out on the Skylark badging in `65. "GS" was a `66 development on the Skylark and Riviera models.

  Tom

[1965rivgs]

Just now, 1965rivgs said:

Ed,

  I believe you are mistaken here. The words "Gran Sport" were also spelled out on the Skylark badging in `65. "GS" was a `66 development on the Skylark and Riviera models.

  Tom

Interesting to note the `65 Skylark Gran Sport also had large and small versions of the badging but the 2 versions were limited to the Grille badge.

Also interesting... the `66 Skylark grille badge was still labeled as "Gran Sport" in spite of the rest of the badging which said "GS". This was also the case for the `66 Wildcat GS cars. Considering Buick designed and built the cars and chose to mix both types of labeling suggests there is no difference in a Gran Sport versus a "GS".

  Tom

[1965rivgs]

9 hours ago, Rivman said:

 

Actually, I believe the gear ratio is what is stamped on the tube, the “X” in the circle is on the bottom of the flange.

 

The "X" is stamped on the bottom of the center section flange "most" of the time and the ratio is stamped on the bottom center of the axle housing "most" of the time.

  Tom

[BMac]

Yeah, both wheels were turning same direction.  I am looking forward to getting it road worthy to try her out.  Motor and trans have both been rebuilt since last on road.  Prev. Owner states it is pushing 500hp.  Not 100 percent convinced myself, but regardless it should still get down the road pretty well.

 

[RivNut]

1 hour ago, 1965rivgs said:

Interesting to note the `65 Skylark Gran Sport also had large and small versions of the badging but the 2 versions were limited to the Grille badge.

Also interesting... the `66 Skylark grille badge was still labeled as "Gran Sport" in spite of the rest of the badging which said "GS". This was also the case for the `66 Wildcat GS cars. Considering Buick designed and built the cars and chose to mix both types of labeling suggests there is no difference in a Gran Sport versus a "GS".

  Tom

News to me.  I'd always been told of the difference. So much for believing what you hear. Thanks for adding some insight.

Edited December 7, 2017 by RivNut (see edit history)

[Loren@65GS.com]

Tom, thank you for bringing up the badging for the '65 Skylark Gran Sport.  The three body styles used the same ornamentation with a difference in that the side emblem for a convertible body was on the quarter panel near the rear. The hard top and thin pillar coupe had the side emblem on the sail panel. All three body styles had the GranSport emblem on the trunk lid in '65 and looks like the sail panel/ quarter panel badge.  The grille badge had two versions, an early rectangular emblem and one that is more of a script with the "G" and "S" larger then the other letters of the emblem.

If I recall correctly, "GS" badging on a Skylark body appeared first in '67.  I know '66 still used Gran Sport badges with the "G" and the "S" in red. The rest of the letters in "Gran Sport" were not painted, but were solid and chrome finish.

 

Some pictures attached.

Top is the early grille badge.  The middle picture is the second, more common , grille badge. The bottom picture is the sail panel / quarter panel badge. The trunk badge looks like the third picture but is pinned on the back side differently.

 

 Loren@65GS.com

Edited December 7, 2017 by Loren@65GS.com (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

1 hour ago, Loren@65GS.com said:

Tom, thank you for bringing up the badging for the '65 Skylark Gran Sport.  The three body styles used the same ornamentation with a difference in that the side emblem for a convertible body was on the quarter panel near the rear. The hard top and thin pillar coupe had the side emblem on the sail panel. All three body styles had the GranSport emblem on the trunk lid in '65 and looks like the sail panel/ quarter panel badge.  The grille badge had two versions, an early rectangular emblem and one that is more of a script with the "G" and "S" larger then the other letters of the emblem.

If I recall correctly, "GS" badging on a Skylark body appeared first in '67.  I know '66 still used Gran Sport badges with the "G" and the "S" in red. The rest of the letters in "Gran Sport" were not painted, but were solid and chrome finish.

 

Some pictures attached.

Top is the early grille badge.  The middle picture is the second, more common , grille badge. The bottom picture is the sail panel / quarter panel badge. The trunk badge looks like the third picture but is pinned on the back side differently.

 

 Loren@65GS.com

Hi Loren,

  Thanks for adding the pics. 1966 cars used the "GS" badges except the grille badge.

  One of the "Gran Sport" emblems on the `65 Skylark is the same emblem as the `65 Riviera Gran Sport rear badge, cant recall which?

  Tom

[telriv]

If your searching the salvage yards for posi rears an easy way to tell if it's a Posi or not. A NON POSI rear have a fill/check plug that takes a 3/8ths. extension to remove the check/fill plug. A POSI has a 3/4" square nut that accepts an open end wrench. IF someone DID NOT change the posi unit or gears this is an easy way by just LOOKING at the fill/check plug WITHOUT crawling under the car & turning the wheels. This fill/check plug is ALWAYS located on the right side of the diff..

 

 

Tom T.

[Loren@65GS.com]

15 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

Hi Loren,

  Thanks for adding the pics. 1966 cars used the "GS" badges except the grille badge.

  One of the "Gran Sport" emblems on the `65 Skylark is the same emblem as the `65 Riviera Gran Sport rear badge, cant recall which?

  Tom

Hi Tom,

  I just checked with a good friend that has a '66 Skylark Gran Sport, to clarify my recollection.  The "Gran Sport" badge is on the grille and on the rear panel between the tail lights. In addition, there is a "GS" badge on each side rear quarter. 

Interesting that the '65 Riviera Gran Sport and '65 Skylark Gran Sport shared one of the badges. Since I am just starting to learn about the first generation Riviera's, I have a long way to go. lol

 

  Loren

[RivNut]

I've had my '63 since '82, and I've been a member of the ROA since '84.  I'm just now getting the real scoop on the Gran Sport  / GS story.  I probably picked up some bad info along the way and passed it along.  I'm going to blame it on the guys over on the V8Buick forum.    

[1965rivgs]

On 12/7/2017 at 1:14 PM, Loren@65GS.com said:

Hi Tom,

  I just checked with a good friend that has a '66 Skylark Gran Sport, to clarify my recollection.  The "Gran Sport" badge is on the grille and on the rear panel between the tail lights. In addition, there is a "GS" badge on each side rear quarter. 

Interesting that the '65 Riviera Gran Sport and '65 Skylark Gran Sport shared one of the badges. Since I am just starting to learn about the first generation Riviera's, I have a long way to go. lol

 

  Loren

Hi Loren,

  Yes re the `66 Skylark model. The `66 Wildcat GS model had the script in the grille and "GS" emblems on each quarter and another "GS" emblem in the rear..."GS" emblem also on the dash,

  Tom

[Chasander]

[1965rivgs]

[Chasander]

[1965rivgs]

1 hour ago, Chasander said:

Nice....

[1965rivgs]